CGTN对话思想者｜德前防长：欧盟必须放弃“制裁逻辑”

Editor’s Note: Rudolf Scharping, former German Defense Minister, sat down with CGTN host Xu Qinduo. He spoke highly of “value-based realism” in handling international affairs, as countries have to respect, understand and talk to each other. He also appealed to the EU to abandon the “so-called logic of sanctions” and restart the ratification of the China-EU Comprehensive Agreement on Investment (CAI). “The globe and China will not wait until the Europeans will come to a decision,” said Scharping. He also stressed that a transplanted model of democracy can never work, as democracy is a “cultural process” that has to be handled within society itself. Views expressed in the video are his and do not necessarily represent those of CGTN.

编者按：德国前国防部长鲁道夫·沙尔平（Rudolf Scharping）在接受CGTN主持人许钦铎专访时高度评价在处理国际事务时“基于价值观的现实主义精神”，各国应相互尊重、理解，并进行对话。他呼吁欧盟放弃所谓的“制裁逻辑”，重启《中欧全面投资协定》的审议工作，“世界和中国不会停下脚步来等欧洲人做决定。”他还强调，民主是一个必须由社会内部自行处理的“文化历程”，从外部移植民主模式的路是行不通的。本视频仅代表被访者个人观点，不代表CGTN的观点或立场。

Xu Qinduo: Well, that's understandable, you know different countries, because of different traditions, history, cultural practices, you do have different values. That's natural. But there is also potential danger - if you allow value or the differences to define the relationship. And then you tend to maximize the problems and somehow minimize the cooperation or the common grounds between countries. Are you worried about that?

许钦铎：需要理解的是，不同国家有不同的传统、历史和文化习俗，因此也会有不同的价值观。这很自然，但也存在潜在的风险。如果国家交往过程中，过分强调价值观差异，那么就可能会激化双方矛盾，淡化国家之间的合作点和共同点。你担心这个问题吗？

Rudolf Scharping: That's why I'm arguing for a clear view from the standpoint of cooperation wherever possible and to regulate competition in a fair manner, establishing a level playing field, and then the differences we have, if it comes to rule of law and so on, the differences will be, let's say, manageable, handleable. We can deal with it in a fairway. By the way, we do not want the Chinese to bring Confucianism as, let's say, something or communism as an idea or an ideology to Europe, as well as we are not intending to bring any kind of ideology and so on to China. We have to respect each other, we have to understand each other, and we have to talk to each other, and you cannot start to talk with somebody like China by raising your fingers or boxing on the table or whatever. It has to be respectful, and for the moment and in the future, it will be respectful. I'm very much confident in value-based realism, which is represented by Olaf Scholz and the German government.

鲁道夫·沙尔平：这就是为什么我主张尽可能以合作的眼光看待双边关系，以公平的方式规范竞争，建立公平的竞争环境。这样我们之间的分歧，比如法治方面的一些分歧，就可以得到有效管理。我们可以采取公平的方式处理分歧。此外，我们不希望中国人将儒家思想或共产主义作为一种理念或意识形态输出到欧洲。同理，我们也不打算将任何意识形态输出到中国。我们必须相互尊重、相互理解、相互交流。你不能一边指责呵斥中国，一边指望与中国进行交流对话。无论是现在还是将来，双方的交流需要建立在相互尊重的基础上。我非常看好以价值观为基础的现实主义精神，这也是朔尔茨和德国政府所遵循的原则。

And by the way, please do not forget. In the first years with Angela Merkel, you also had some difficulties or we had some difficulties between the two countries, not so much between the two countries, between the two governments. And probably we have a little bit bumpy road in the next few weeks, but don't overestimate this. Realism is a very good, good attitude to handle international affairs.

在此我想提一下，请别忘记，在安格拉·默克尔担任总理的最初几年里，中德两国之间也存在一些矛盾。与其说是两国之间，不如说是两国政府之间存在一些矛盾。也许在接下来的几周里，两国关系也会遇到些许坎坷，但千万不要过分夸大困难。在处理国际事务方面，现实主义是一种非常务实的态度。

Xu Qinduo: What about this EU-China investment, this comprehensive deal, which was basically shelved temporarily by the European Parliament because of the sanctions. Are you optimistic that it will be approved in the near future?

许钦铎：接下来谈谈《中欧全面投资协定》，中国反制裁之后，欧洲议会搁置了该协定的审议进程，你是否对协定在不久的将来获得批准保持乐观？

Rudolf Scharping: Let me elaborate a little bit on this, because on January 1st, the Regional Comprehensive Economic Partnership will be in force. That means China, Japan, South Korea, Australia, New Zealand, and the ASEAN states will form the biggest free trade zone on the globe.

鲁道夫·沙尔平：让我来稍微解释下。2022年1月1日，《区域全面经济伙伴关系协定》将正式生效。这意味着中国、日本、韩国、澳大利亚、新西兰和东盟国家将组成全球最大的自由贸易区。

We have this strong globalization and within globalization, we have a tendency of regionalization to make supply chains more resilient, to make cooperation in specific regions and among continents more promising, and so on and so on. That all serves the interests of people and their interests in living a life in dignity and with promising opportunities in the future.

全球化是一股强大的时代趋势。在全球化进程中，世界还存在区域化的趋势，以增强供应链的韧性，让特定区域之间及各大洲之间的合作前景更加光明。这一切都符合人民的利益，有助于让人们过上有尊严的生活，让人们享有更好的发展机会。

With regard to Europe, I only can advise if I may say so, the Europeans to take into account that the globe and China will not wait until the Europeans will come to a decision. We need to leave this so-called logic of sanctions, sanctioning each other. We have to stop that. And we have to restart not only the Comprehensive Agreement on Investment between China and the European Union. We also have to restart a lot of things to strengthen and to intensify the cooperation between China and Europe, China and Germany, and so on.

至于欧洲，我只能直言相谏，建议欧洲人认清形势：全世界和中国不会停下脚步来等欧洲人做决定。我们必须摒弃制裁思维，停止互相制裁。我们必须停止这种做法。我们不仅要重启《中欧全面投资协定》的审议工作，还必须重启许多其他事项，加强和深化中欧及中德合作。

So my strong argument regarding both sides is stopping escalation, stop the logic of sanctions and restart your efforts to make the relationship even more promising than it is presently.

因此，我强烈主张双方不再激化矛盾，摒弃制裁思维，重启各项工作，使双边关系更上一层楼。

Xu Qinduo: In September, you wrote an article titled “Democracy cannot be exported to other countries mechanically”, citing the example of the Afghanistan mission by the West in general. Do you think Western countries will learn the right lessons from the 20-year Afghanistan war?

许钦铎：今年9月，您发表了一篇文章，题为《民主不能简单机械地输出》。文章将西方国家的阿富汗行动作为例子。您认为西方国家会从长达20年的阿富汗战争中吸取教训吗？

Rudolf Scharping: Yeah, I hope so, but it's not limited to the situation within Afghanistan. It's also, if you are looking at other parts of the globe, you can see that democracy, rule of law, human dignity, and so on, that is a cultural process. That is something that has to be handled within societies. Maybe there is some support from the outside. Maybe there is some kind of, let's say, common exercise, common learning, and common exchange, if it comes to culture, education, the way you handle the interests of women within society and within business and economy, and so on and so on.

鲁道夫·沙尔平：我希望如此，但不仅限于阿富汗，如果你放眼全球其他地区，你会发现民主、法治、人的尊严都属于当地文化进程的一部分，必须由这些国家自主安排和处理。在这个过程中，一国也许会得到来自外部的支持，也许会与别国有某种共同实践或互学互鉴，比如在文化教育领域，比如在社会生活、商业和经济活动中维护女性利益的方式等。

What I want to say is you cannot say there is one part of democracy which you transfer to another nation, and then it works there. That will never happen. And for this, we also have to take into account, even rule of law, is something which is under development within our society, within my country as well as in every European country. And by the way, also within China. If I look at the Chinese courts to protect intellectual property, that is one among several examples you can use that, step by step, there is a development. And in case, you accept and you acknowledge and you know about this kind of development, then you have a chance to talk about how to expand this development into other areas of society, economy, and so on.

在我看来，你不能简单地将一国的民主制度移植到另一个国家，并指望它能发挥作用。这完全是天方夜谭。此外，我们还必须认识到，即使是依法治国这种理念，在我们的社会中，在德国，在欧洲，也需要不断地发展完善，在中国也不例外。比如你看中国法院处理知识产权保护相关的案件，或是看其他的一些实践，就会发现情况在逐步地进步，当你接受、认可并理解了这种进步，你才有可能讨论如何将这种进步扩展到社会经济生活的其他方面。

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