为何要读《亲爱的，别把上帝缩小了》这本书？
Q1 九标志事工（以下简称“九标志”）：听说国会山浸信会要求每一个参加教牧实习的传道人在实习开始之前都要写一篇《亲爱的，别把上帝缩小了》这本书的阅读论文？是不是真的？这是个什么样的作业？
Michael Lawrence（以下简称ML）：是的。当我们正式地接纳一位弟兄加入成为实习生时，我们会发给他在实习开始前要求读的所有图书。其中一本就是韦尔契所著的《亲爱的，别把上帝缩小了》。在实习正式开始之前，他们必须写一篇5页纸的论文，分享他们从这本书如何认识自己，看到自己如何“惧怕人”，并且打算如何回应自己的这一问题。
这本书的内容是有关我们惧怕人却不惧怕神的问题。很多时候，我们看到对人的惧怕很影响传道人的事工。虽然这不是传道人面临的唯一问题，但的确是一个很大的问题，因为这会决定传道人的事奉忠心于否，以及他的事奉是否有果效。
Q2 九标志：为什么要求他们在实习开始之前读这本书，而不是实习中间或实习结束时？
ML：我们要求他们在实习开始前读这本书，因为我们希望他们意识到现代福音派所面临的这种挑战和倾向。在接下去的实习中，我们将会花不少时间批判现代福音派讨人喜欢的一面。我们很容易批评一些看重“人数”的牧师，但是看重人数的背后是什么？根本问题是什么？
并且，在整个实习过程中我们常常将他们放在一个可能会“惧怕人”的场合，例如我们会希望他们提供对讲道的批评和意见。我不希望他们只是在那里讨好我们或是主任牧师，而是寻求神的喜悦。当然，他们自己也要面对来自我们的批评和意见。
Q3 九标志：为什么这本书对传道人和将来的传道人都那么重要？
ED：如果我的工作是为了得到人的肯定，那么我就会毫无疑问的倾向于调整我的信息以获得他们的认可。例如，我可能会犹豫要不要批评某个主内的肢体，以免让人认为我不够宽容。
如果我希望得到某个社区的尊重，我就会被驱动调整我的事工，以获得社区的认可和肯定。这会导致我引入某些来自世界的价值观。
韦尔契所说的另一种惧怕是“惧怕批评”。这种惧怕来自于传道人害怕被当作是骗子，或是被当作无知的人、没有呼召的人。因着这种惧怕，传道人的事工会显得具有防备性。有这种惧怕的传道人会仅仅在他有恩赐的事上发挥，以免被人发现弱点。这样的传道人不敢承担风险，不敢凭信心生活，他会被他自己的才干和缺陷所捆绑。
这种对批评的惧怕会导致传道人不敢去鼓励和造就其他领袖，特别是那些比他更有恩赐的领袖。“任何显得比我更有讲道恩赐、辅导恩赐或是其他恩赐的人都会成为对我的威胁，会暴露我的缺陷。所以我不会鼓励他们，也不会建立一个长老团或牧师团，因为他们都会对我的职位产生威胁。”
这会导致牧师非常的威权主义，常常打击别人，而不是鼓励、造就别人。
韦尔契的这本书非常合乎圣经，也非常实用。他常常呼召我们回到基督面前，看到基督、福音和神的荣耀，这些都足以驱散我们对人的惧怕。当我们正确的敬畏神时，来自人的主意就不那么重要了。
韦尔契注意到我们生命中都存在的问题，并把这些问题从黑暗中拉出来让我们看到，对人的惧怕藏在我们心里。“惧怕人”有时似乎成了一种谦卑的美德。但是韦尔契很好地让我们看见惧怕人的背后是什么。
Q4 九标志：如果我是一个牧师，我注意到我的事工是围绕着我的恩赐而开展的，那我该如何帮助别的领袖？
ML：我会鼓励传道人和他的长老团队以及其他全职同工一起读这本书，但是牧师需要采取主动，承认自己的问题，并带来改变。这是你必须要做出的选择。
在国会山浸信会，我们每周都有机会坐在一起，彼此评估公共崇拜中的事奉。我们互相提供敬虔的批评和敬虔的鼓励。每次主日崇拜后的晚上，所有在主日崇拜中承担服事的弟兄们都坐到一起，互相提供反馈。这样的反馈并不是只有狄马可和他的副牧师们才能参加，所有的助理、实习生都可以参加。狄马可自己的讲道也让大家来批评和鼓励。在这个时刻，狄马可做了很好的榜样。
我们每周都有这样的会议，这对塑造我们的谦卑很有帮助。
我们做的另一件事，是彼此深入的相交。我们积极地彼此鼓励，也建立深入的团契关系。我们期待彼此问这样的问题：“你最近真的怎么样？”，或者“你最近在挣扎什么问题？” 实习生、牧师甚至教会的每一个成员都需要学习拥抱与人建立关系可能带来的风险，以及在恩典和恩慈中长进。这种关系不是一夜就能建立的，但是这种文化需要我们去塑造。
目前在我们教会里，还做得很不完美，但我们看到这是我们应做的，也看到它正在产生效果。
Why Every Pastor-in-Training Should Read Ed’s Book: An Interview with Michael Lawrence
9Marks: Is it true? Does Capitol Hill Baptist Church require every pastoral intern to write a paper on Ed Welch’s book When People are Big and God is Small before they arrive for the internship? What’s the assignment?
Michael Lawrence: It’s true. After we formally accept an intern into the program, we send him a variety of books that they must read before the program begins. One of those books is Ed Welch’s. By the time the internship begins, they must write a five-page paper where they use the book to reflect on their own life: Where do they see “fear of man” in their life? How does it work itself out and what should they do to respond to it?
That’s what the book is about: the “fear of man” versus the “fear of God.” We think the fear of man has huge ramifications for the rest of their ministry. It’s not the only issue that pastors face, but it’s a huge one and will have an outsized impact on the faithfulness and the shape of their ministry.
9M: Why do you have them read this book at the beginning of the internship and not the middle or the end?
ML: We have them read this book at the beginning because we want them to realize right up front that the tendencies in modern evangelicalism that we’re going to critique in the internship are not just issues that other people have. The same fears and issues reside in our own hearts. It’s easy to critique pastors who are fixated on “numbers.” But what’s the root issue there, and where does it show up in my heart?
Also, over the course of the internship program we’re going to repeatedly put them in situations that will provoke the fear of man in them, including occasions in which we offer critique. Yet we don’t want to teach them how to please us, but to seek the Lord’s pleasure, even as they learn to humbly receive critique from us.
9M: Why is this book so important both for pastors and for those training for the pastorate?
ML: If I am living and working for other people’s approval of me, I’m going to be sorely tempted to trim my sails, to adjust my message. For instance, I might refrain from rebuking a brother or sister in Christ when love calls me to do so because I’m afraid that they aren’t going to think I’m a “great guy” any more.
If I want to be respected in my community, I will be driven to build and measure my ministry in terms that the community will respect and value. And that will lead me to subtly import some of the world’s values and measurements into my ministry.
Another fear that Welch deals with is the “fear of exposure.” This is the fear of being exposed as a fraud, or as someone who doesn’t know what he’s doing, and who shouldn’t be where he is. That’s going to lead a pastor to structure his ministry in ways that are defensive. It will cause him to play only to his strengths—those areas where he feels confident that he won’t be exposed. So he won’t take risks; he won’t be someone who’s living by faith. He will live by his wit and by his skills.
The fear of exposure will cause a pastor to be the kind of leader who will be hesitant to encourage and raise up other leaders, especially those who look like they could challenge his position or credibility. As soon as somebody comes along who looks like he might be a better preacher, counselor, or whatever, that person becomes a threat to me. That person may expose me. So I’m not going to encourage them. I’m not going to build a team of elders or staff that pursues godly faithfulness and excellence, because it’s all too threatening.
And this might lead the pastor to become quite authoritarian. It might lead a pastor to discourage others out of fear, rather than encourage and build up as he ought.
Welch’s book is very biblical and practical in terms of how to respond to the fear of man. He calls us back again and again to the sufficiency of Christ, the gospel, and the glory of God as the only things big enough to dispel the fear of man. As we grow in an appropriate fear of God, that puts the opinions of people in a right perspective.
Welch takes something that exists in all of our lives and drags it out of the darkness and into the light. That’s the thing about fear of man—it hides. It makes itself look respectable. Welch does a great job of pulling off its masks and helping us see it for what it really is.
9M: What if I’m a pastor and I realize that I have structured my ministry to cater to my strengths? What are some practical things that you’ve seen that could help leaders?
ML: I certainly would encourage pastors to read this book with their elders and staff. But then the pastor has to lead the way in acknowledging and bringing into the open the ways in which he struggles with fear of man. That’s the way you are going to begin to put it to death.
One thing we do at Capitol Hill Baptist Church is to hold a regular weekly opportunity for giving feedback to everyone involved in public ministry: godly encouragement and godly criticism. On Sunday evenings after the public services, all the people who participated in the services walk through them together to offer one another feedback. It’s not just Mark Dever with the senior staff, but everybody down to the newest intern participating. Mark leads the way by subjecting himself to this feedback. At that moment, Mark models the opposite of a defensive, cult of personality, untouchable approach to ministry.
Building that meeting into our weekly rhythm has been extremely helpful in corporately cultivating a culture of humility.
One of the other things that we do is to try to cultivate a culture in which it is normal to be involved in each others lives. We actively encourage the formation of real relationships of depth in which it’s expected that you’re going to be asked: “How are you really doing?” or “How are you struggling?” Pastoral interns, pastors, and every member of the congregation must learn to take a risk in relationships for the sake of growth in grace and godliness. That doesn’t happen overnight. But it is a culture that can be encouraged, modeled, and cultivated.
It doesn’t happen perfectly in our church, but it’s the goal we’ve set for ourselves and it’s bearing good fruit.
作者：Michael Lawrence
Michael Lawrence是俄立岗州波特兰市鑫森浸信会（Hinson Baptist Church in Portland, Oregon）的主任牧师。
翻译肢体：始明
用圣经视野和实用资源装备教会领袖
进而通过健康的教会向世界彰显神的荣耀
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