蒲英玮对谈激进文献RadiKarl ArchiWe | 艺术汇 艺术家书

蒲英玮：初次听说你们是在日内瓦摄影中心（Centre de la photographie），策展人约克·巴德（Joerg Bader）向我推荐了奥利弗·隆戈（Olivier Lugon）重新编辑出版的著作《文献美学：从奥古斯特·桑德到沃克·埃文斯，1920-1945》“Le style documentaire：D’August Sander à Walker Evans, 1920-1945”，同时也提到了你们的实践。所以“文献”概念一直是你们工作的最核心部分？

RadiKarl ArchiWe：是的，“文献美学”的概念深深地启发了我们，而我们所希望做的，更准确地说是一种“作为文献的图像”。我们在一开始成立的时候就比较明确地认识到，我们将要从事的并不是档案的整理工作，而依然是“表现”（Representation）工作。这与其它视觉艺术的观看语境没有什么不同，只不过我们选择制造一种文献感。但这种文献感不等同于“真实”，因为真正的真实是很具体庞杂的，恰恰是无法被观看的。而我们期待的文献感其实最终的目的是激发一种重新感知现实的欲望。

蒲英玮：摒弃“呈现真实”的野心，而选择一种启发性、煽动性的表现手法。这甚至可以说是浪漫主义的，也就是说RadiKarl ArchiWe并不针对具体的事件？是不是可以说你们的工作现场其实是普遍性的人类生存境况？

RadiKarl ArchiWe：总体来说，我们的工作并不针对具体的事件。我们希望输出的是一种普遍性的观看，这种观看是跨越时间与空间的（当然这并不是更好的，只是我们根据工作的条件与能力所选择的一个角度）。但图像终归会承载各种信息，这些信息会把观者引向某个相对具体的语境，或者某种具体的记忆从而使图像的观看生效。但我们并不以“主题”的方式工作。

其实小组的名字最初命名为“激进文献”（Radical Archive），后来根据近似的读音，又把“卡尔”（Karl）以及“我们”（We）的概念置换了进来。最后变成了“RadiKarl ArchiWe”，其实想要传达的也是一种“共同性”的概念。这种共同性其实由很多个方面组成，一方面我们所生产的这些图像涉及了不同时期、不同人群所经历的不同事件，而现在共同呈现在某个新的观众面前，我们试图让他们之间建立连接。

同时，这些文献本身也来自于不同的地方，并不全都是我们自己来拍摄，也有一些对无名者照片的收集，朋友的提供（也许只是一段旅行记录），也有网络上公共版权图像的下载。在这一点上，我们也受到卡特兰（Maurizio Cattelan）与费拉里（Pierpaolo Ferrari）所创办的杂志《厕纸》（Toiletpaper）的启发，所有的图像都不保留有版权，开放使用，成为一个公共的资源。这样看来，其实在传播的层面上，我们与其他图像性作品没有区别，只不过我们选择通过这些传播渠道：网络、杂志、展览等等，去传播可以召唤真实感的图像。

蒲英玮：一个陈旧的问题，作为图像的生产者，如何面对今天图像的泛滥？或者说你们还真正相信图像的有效性么？

RadiKarl ArchiWe：图像的泛滥其实已经被讨论了将近20年，现在已经成为了一个无法改变的既定事实。对于RadiKarl ArchiWe来说，这是首先需要承认，而非需要改变的一个现实处境。而面对“图像的泛滥”，我们应该怎么做？这其实就涉及到了一个图像的伦理与图像的价值问题。我们只能试图去生产非奇观化的图像，而恰恰这么做在今天显得格格不入。比如在上个月的《视觉》（Vision）杂志中，我们与其他几位摄影师一同刊登在同一个版面。“非风格化”的美学反而让RadiKarl ArchiWe的图像显得更加的独特，在我们看来，这就是一次有效的传播。

蒲英玮：谈谈这次刊发的20张图像。你们是如何考虑的？图像相互之间又有什么联系？

RadiKarl ArchiWe：这次更多的是一个图像与图像之间“连续撞击”的状态。其实这些图像的制作方法是比较多样的，有些是扫描，有些是翻拍，还有的是别人提供的图像。比如由一张充满划痕的坦克明信片开始，紧接着是记录阵亡士兵的照片，以及美军的单兵作战口粮。这些让这组图片有了一个下沉的声调，而紧接图像则由战争开始发散，野兽，火焰，开采的矿山，游行的人群。我觉得很难最终定义这组图像传达了什么。

但可以确定的是，这些图像在某种程度上都很激烈，他们是具有煽动性的与爆破性的。我们可以感受到图像背后那种毅然决然的的能量。而这也是RadiKarl ArchiWe一直秉持的一个“共情”的工作模式。这种共情在看到这些图像的时候就已经发生在成员自己身上了，我们最后只是找到合适的途径把它们呈现出来。

蒲英玮：也许这20张图片更多传达的是一种气质和趋向，很难了解RadiKarl ArchiWe的整体实践。我记得上次在圣丰当代艺术中心（SFCA）。你们小组并没有使用“RadiKarl ArchiWe”的署名，而之后约克（Joerg Bader）向我推荐你们的时候，其实才发现之前看到的很多展览其实都是你们在做，或者有你们的参与，但也都没有署名。

RadiKarl ArchiWe：在我们看来，事件发生的有效性是第一位的。比如在SFCA那次，其实是把艺术中心短暂地改造成了一个本地历史博物馆。由于艺术中心是处在城市的郊区，所以每次这里“空降”的艺术家展览其实都是处在一个比较真空的状态，与本地居民并没有发生关系。我们当时在驻留机构呆了近两个月，拍摄并收集了很多与本地历史文脉相关的图像。

所以自然也想与周边的居民发生关系，于是当时就放弃了署名，甚至没有展览的题目，而是以当地的一个社区委员会的名义举办了这场展览，这也让这场活动变得更加的亲民。

最后“图像”的有效性发生了，这对于我们来说就足够了。而这种有效性，或者渗透性则是我们认为的“激进文献”（RadiKarl ArchiWe）。而与此同时，就像我之前所说的，所有图像是一个共享的状态。所以不同机构的展览其实也会和我们合作，我们也会提供一些文献资料给他们，这样图像可以渗透在社会活动的各个领域，这也是我们所开心看到的。而署名权其实是退居其次的；因为往往一旦署名，其实就会一定程度上让别人对你的观看简单化。

蒲英玮：可以介绍一下现在RadiKarl ArchiWe的运作情况与人员构成么？

RadiKarl ArchiWe：起初主创团队连上我一共有三个人，是从学生时代就相互认识并在一起工作的。随着不同项目的推进，总会有新的成员加入我们。或者是在某一个阶段和我们一同工作，或者是远程通过邮件的方式相互联络。总之，RadiKarl ArchiWe的工作方式很随机，也很开放，成员们平时也有他们各自的工作；但我们会时常互通有无，并在必要的时候聚集到一起。这也是一种大家公认的工作距离。

RadiKarl ArchiWe（激进文献）于2013年成立于日内瓦。该小组致力于以“图像证词”（Image as Evidence）的方式来嵌入不同的现实语境之中，利用视觉生产渗透进诸如艺术、历史、教育、社会运动等各个领域的中间地带。小组现除了3名生活在瑞士的主创成员（É·Laurens、R·Fragnon、M·Mauroy）之外，激进文献还不断地与来自不同专业的人群发生关系，制造新的串联。主要的合作项目包括：“五月风暴1968-2018”，ECA欧洲文献中心（2018）、“图像之责”，萨克森豪森历史博物馆（2015）、“圣丰社区历史影相馆”，SFCA（2014）。

相关展览：

“日常沟通”望远镜艺术家工作室 展览现场 

“日常沟通”望远镜艺术家工作室 展览现场 

“日常沟通”望远镜艺术家工作室 展览现场 

Yingwei Pu: It is the first time I heard of you when the curator Joerg Bader at Centre de la photographie recommended the new edition of “Le style documentaire：D’August Sander à Walker Evans, 1920-1945” re-edited by Olivier Lugon and mentioned your practices. Is “documentary” the most essential concept of your works? 

RadiKarl ArchiWe: Yes, the concept of “documentary style” has deeply inspired us, and what we want to do, precisely, is to develop “the images as documentations”. From the beginning, we have clearly realized that what we are going to do is not to reorganize documents but create representation of them. On account of viewing context, it is not different from other visual art forms, we just choose to create a sense of documentation. However, such a sense of documentation can not be considered as equal to “truth”, because the real truth is very specific and complex, just not for viewing. For the sense of documentation, the ultimate goal we expect is to stimulate a desire re-perceiving the reality. 

Yingwei Pu: Discard the ambition of “presenting reality”, but choose an inspiring and provoking expression. It even might be said that it is a kind of romanticism, that is to say, RadiKarl ArchiWe is not aiming at specific events, isn’t? or, arguably, does your work site in fact present the universal situation of human survival?  

RadiKarl ArchiWe: In general, our work doesn’t aim at specific events. We expect to deliver a kind of universal viewing experience, crossing over time and space (it may not be the best, but a choice based on our conditions and capabilities). Eventually, the images carry all kinds of information, and those will direct viewers to a relatively specific context, or activate their experiences through recalling some kinds of memory. However, we don’t work in “theme”. In fact, our group was originally named as “Radical Archive”, and then according to pronunciation, the corresponding phonemes were replaced by “Karl” and “We”, finally becoming “RadiKarl ArchiWe” with the new interpretation, to convey a concept of commonality. 

The commonality consists of many aspects, the images we produced involve different events experienced by different people at different time, but representing them as a whole before a new viewer, we want to create new connections. Meanwhile, these documentary images come from various sources, not all of them are taken by ourselves, some unknown photos, some provided by our friends (probably, just a sort of documentation for traveling), or downloaded public domain images.  Here, we get inspiration from Toiletpaper magazine founded by Maurizio Cattelan and Pierpaolo Ferrari, and don’t want to reserve any copyrights, our all images are free to anyone. From the perspective of communication, our works have no any difference from others, but we choose internet, magazines and exhibitions to distribute the images in order to evoke the sense of reality.

Yingwei Pu: Here is a cliché question. As the producers of images, how do you think about the nowadays proliferation of images? In other words, do you still believe in their effectiveness? 

RadiKarl ArchiWe: The proliferation of image has been discussed for almost 20 years, and inexorably become an established fact. To RadiKarl ArchiWe, it is a realistic situation to acknowledge but not to change. Facing the flood of images, what should we do? Actually, it involves an issue about the ethics and values of image. We just try to create the images against spectacularization, but doing so seems out of place in today’s world. For example, we were mentioned with other photographers in the same page of last month’s Vision magazine. Indeed, the aesthetics of non-spectacularization makes RadiKarl ArchiWe’s images more unique. For us, it is an effective communication.   

Yingwei Pu: Let’s talk about the 20 images just published. What is your interpretation? How are the images connected to each other? 

RadiKarl ArchiWe: It is more like a status of “continuous impacting”. The images were created through various methods, scanning, photocopying, or provided by others. Such as, the series begins with a postcard of a tank with many dents, then photos of fallen soldiers and ready-to-eat meals of American army, creating a sadly sinking atmosphere, as the war is spreading, the images of beasts, flames, mines, demonstrators are emerging. 

I think it is very difficult to define what the series conveys. But, it can be sure that these images, to a certain extent, are very intense, provocative and explosive. We could feel the determined energy behind them. It also contains the “empathy” that RadiKarl ArchiWe always devotes to preserve. Seeing these images, we may feel the events actually happen to ourselves, only we eventually figure out a suitable way to present them. 

Yingwei Pu: It seems that these 20 images convey a temperament and tendency, from which the entire practice of RadiKarl ArchiWe is barely comprehensive. I remember that last time at SFCA, your group had not been in the name of “RadiKarl ArchiWe”, but after Joerg Bader recommended your group to me, I just found that you have presented lots of exhibitions, or participated, but without your name.

RadiKarl ArchiWe: To us, the effectiveness is the first thing. Taking the exhibition in SFCA as an example, the SFCA was temporarily transferred into a local history museum.  SFCA is located in a suburb, therefore, it looks like that all exhibitions are “air dropped” in a vacuum, and have no any connection with local residents. We took a residency for two months there, photographed and collected lots of images related to the local history. 

Consequently, we wanted to interact with locals, therefore, we decided not to sign our names, and even not to give the exhibition a title but organized the activity on the behalf of community council to make it more intimacy to local people. Finally, we witnessed the powerful effectiveness of image, it is far enough for us. The effectiveness, or permeability, is the “RadiKarl ArchiWe” believed in. Meanwhile, as I mentioned before, all images are for sharing. Many institutions work with us, and we also provide documentary materials for them, as a result, these images could permeate into more corners of social activities. That’s what we are glad to see. The right of authorship is secondary, because once signing your name, to some extent, others’ view on your work is simplified. 

Yingwei Pu: Could you introduce the operation and team of RadiKarl ArchiWe?

RadiKarl ArchiWe：Originally, our team had three members, including myself, we have known each other since school days and continued to work together. With working on various projects, we always have new members joined us. We may work together at a certain stage, or only communicate through emails. Anyway, the operation mode of RadiKarl ArchiWe is quite random and open, members have their own jobs, but we sometimes exchange and supply any needs, and physically work together when necessary. We are trying to keep a distance we all recognized. 

RadiKarl ArchiWe was founded at Geneva in 2013. The group works through a way of “Image as Evidence” to embed their concepts in different contexts, utilizing visual production to permeate the intermediate zones among art, history, education and social activity. Currently, RadiKarl ArchiWe has three members (É.Laurens, R.Fragnon, M.Mauroy) living in Switzerland, and always makes connection with other professionals to inspire new relationships. The major cooperated projects include “May Storm, 1968-2018”, ECA (2018); “The responsibility of image”, Sachsenhausen history museum (2015); “SFCA history image museum”, SFCA (2014).

---

2019“北京艺术地图”第二期发布

免费赠阅

[e-mail]

---