帕奥禅师访谈录

Interview with Pa Auk Sayadaw

2020年8月12日由Beth Upton上传至youtube

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免责声明：水平有限，译文仅供参考，如有错误，恕不负责。

PS: 英文字幕为Beth Upton自己添加，涉及到巴利语的地方会出现错误，我也没能力校正。

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好，西亚多吉，在欧洲可能

Okay, so...Sayadawgyi, maybe, in Europe for example,

没有多少人听说过帕奥

not very many people have heard of Pa Auk,

或者不知道西亚多吉是怎么指导禅修的

or how Sayadawgyi is teaching meditation.

通常，我教导人们觉悟

I'm teaching, usually, for the realization

四圣谛

of the four noble truths.

那么，西亚多吉能否解释

So, can Sayadawgyi explain

什么是四圣谛吗？

what are the four noble truths?

什么是四圣谛？

What are the four noble truths?

西亚多吉，你能不能解释一下？

Sayadawgyi, could you explain?

苦圣谛

The noble truth of dukkha sacca

 [or] the noble truth of suffering.

苦集圣谛

The noble truth of the origin of suffering.

苦灭圣谛

The noble truth of the cessation of suffering.

道圣谛

The noble truth of the way,

就是为了觉悟这四个圣谛

for realization of the four noble truths.

那么，西亚多吉

So Sayadawgyi,

西亚多吉，你是如何理解

how does Sayadawgyi understand

苦圣谛的呢？

the noble truth of suffering?

或许，有时候，这需要根据许多经文

Maybe sometimes, this is according to many suttas [texts],

特别地，首先

especially beginning from

依据《转法轮经》

the Dhamma Cakkha Pavatthana Sutta.

佛陀教导说：

The Buddha teaches:

生是苦

“jāti pi dukkhā, 

[birth is suffering]

老是苦

jarā pi dukkhā…” 

[old age is suffering]

等等

Et cetera.

最后，他说：

Finally, he said:

“saṃkhittena pañcupādānakkhandhā dukkhā.”

要而言之：五取蕴

In brief, five aggregates of clinging

被称为苦圣谛

are called dukkha sacca }

[the truth of suffering].

五蕴是什么？

What are the five aggregates?

蕴品相应提到了

This is mentioned in the Khandha Vagga Saṃyutta's

蕴经

Khandha Sutta.

凡任何色，不論過去、未來、現在

“Yaṃ kiñci, rūpaṃ atītānāgatapaccuppannaṃ

或內或外

ajjhattaṃ vā bahiddhā vā

或粗或細

oḷārikaṃ vā sukhumaṃ vā

或下劣或勝妙

hīnaṃ vā paṇītaṃ vā

或遠或近

yaṃ dūre santike vā

只要成为执取之目标

sāsavaṃ upādāniyaṃ

就被稱為色取蘊

ayaṃ vuccati rūpupādānakkhandho.”

佛陀就是在这里解释的

This is where the Buddha explains:

色取蕴

rūpupādānakkhandha, 

[the clinging aggregate of matter]

受取蕴

vedanupādānakkhandha 

[the clinging aggregate of feeling]

想取蕴

saññupādānakkhandha 

[the clinging aggregate of perception]

行取蕴

saṅkhārupādānakkhandha 

[the clinging aggregate of mental formations]

识取蕴

viññāṇupādānakkhandha 

[the clinging aggregate of consciousness]

同样地，佛陀解释说

In the same way the Buddha explained.

因此，这是过去的五蕴

So, this is past five aggregates,

现在的五蕴

present five aggregates,

未来的五蕴

future five aggregates.

包括内和外

Both internal and external.

粗和细

Gross and subtle.

劣和胜

Inferior and superior.

远和近

Far and near.

这一切都是诸漏的所缘

All are the object of āsava [cankers].

因此，这些被称为

So, these are called

五取蕴

the five aggregates of clinging.

西亚多吉

How would Sayadawgyi

你是怎么解释第二圣谛的呢？

explain the second noble truth?

第二圣谛

The second noble truth is,

根据经文

according to the Saccāyatana Sutta

无明缘行

Avijjā paccayā saṅkhārā, 

[Ignorance is a condition for mental formations]

 行缘识

saṅkhāra paccayā viññāṇaṃ

[mental formations are a condition for consciousness]

识缘名色

viññāṇa paccayā nāmarūpaṃ,

 [consciousness is a condition for mind and matter]

这就是苦集圣谛

This is the noble truth of the origin of suffering.

这就是缘起吗？

It means dependent origination?

缘起

Dependent origination.

西亚多吉，第三圣谛呢？

And what about the third noble truth, Sayadawgyi?

第三圣谛是怎么回事？

What about the third noble truth?

你会怎么解释呢？

How would Sayadawgyi explain?

灭圣谛

The noble truth of cessation is

是五取蕴的彻底熄灭

complete cessation of five clinging aggregates.

所以，意思是不再有五蕴？

So, it means no more five aggregates?

不再有五蕴

No more five aggregates.

那么，第四圣谛呢？

And, what about the fourth noble truth?

第四圣谛是关于

The fourth noble truth is about

就是八圣道

the noble eightfold path.

那么，八圣道的一部分

And so, as part of that eightfold path,

就包括禅修

is meditation.

禅修，首先要

Meditation is first,

我们首先要戒清净

we must purify our sīla [behaviour, ethic].

正语

sammāvācā

 [right speech]

正业

sammākammanto 

[right action]

正命

sammāājīvo 

[right livelihood]

基本上，就是关于道德训练的圣谛

Basically, noble truth of training of morality.

戒蕴

sīlakhandha

 [The body of ethic]

为什么我们首先要培养

Why is it that we should develop

要先培养这三个呢？

those three first?

我们为什么要首先培养这三个呢？

Why is it that we should develop those three first?

这是根据戒律来的

This is according to Vinaya.

根据戒律

According to Vinaya we must try

我们要努力清净戒行

to purify our sīla.

然后呢？

And then?

然后我们必须

And then we must try

努力培养禅定，奢摩他

concentration, samatha

也就是正定

What is sammāsamādhi 

[right concentration]?

这个在《大念处经》中讲过

This is mentionned in Mahāsatipaṭṭhānasutta

佛陀教导了

Buddha teaches

四色界禅那

(that the) four rupavacara jhana

正定

sammāsamādhi.

我们称之为中道

But this mentioning is called

 majjhajivaka [middle way] method

三摩地有三种

In samādhi there are three types

欲界三摩地

kāmāvacara samādhi

 [sense sphere concentration]

色界三摩地

rūpāvacara samādhi 

[fine material sphere concentration]

无色界三摩地

arūpāvacara samādhi

 [immaterial sphere concentration]

其中，佛陀解释说

Among these, Buddha explained,

色界三摩地是中间的

rūpāvacara samādhi, this is the middle samādhi.

欲界三摩地也是可能的

and kāmāvacara-samādhi

 [sense sphere concentration] is also possible.

无色界三摩地也是可能的

Arūpāvacara samādhi

 [immaterial sphere concentration] is also possible.

因此，这四种三摩地

So, these four types of samādhi

或者八种三摩地

or eight types of samādhi

被称为正定

Are called sammāsamādhi.

正定

This sammāsamādhi,

是资助的缘

is supportive cause

让大家觉悟到

for the realization of

苦圣谛

the noble truth of suffering and,

苦集圣谛

the noble truth of the origin of suffering.

因为专注的心

Because a concentrated mind

可以观察名、色

can see this nāmarūpa.

名法和色法

[mind and matter]

没有定力，就无法看到名、色

Without concentration they cannot see nāmarūpa,

究竟的名、色

paramattha nama-rūpa 

[intrinsic (ultimate) mind and matter]

不是道听途说的名色

Not “hearsay” nāmarūpa

只能是究竟的名色

Paramattha nama rūpa only

西亚多吉，当禅修者

Sayadawgyi, once the meditator

具有三摩地之后

has established samādhi,

他们如何继续修习？

then how should they continue to practice?

通常我教四界分别的禅法

Usually I teach four elements meditation.

以此获得良好的定力

To get good concentration.

这种三摩地通常是欲界三摩地

This samādhi is usually kāmāvacara-samādhi [sense sphere concentration]

有时候，借助于这种禅定

Sometimes, depending on this concentration,

我教导遍禅的修法

I teach kasiṇa.

遍禅属于禅那之定

Kasiṇa is jhāna concentration.

所有的禅那

All jhānas, or

四色界禅那

four rūpāvacara jhānas, [fine material sphere]

或者四无色界禅那

or four arūpā jhānas. [immaterial sphere]

我总共教导这八种禅那

Altogether, eight jhānas I teach.

八种禅那更好

Eight jhānas is better.

那么，当他们修习了

And then once they've practised

所有这些禅那之后

all of the jhānas,

他们接着应该如何修习呢？

then how should they continue?

基于禅那的定力

Based on jhāna concentration

他们应该修习四界的禅法

they should practice four elements meditation

以此体证到色法

for realization of rūpa [matter].

为什么佛陀的教法

Why Buddha teaches us

首先只是让我们体证色法？

only for realization of rūpā first

在四念处中

in the four mahā satipaṭṭhāna [4 foundation of mindfulness]?

身、受、心、法

kāya, vedanā, citta, dhammā

 [body, feeling, consciousness, dhammas]

“身”通常指色法

Kāya refers usually to matter rūpa.

以及奢摩他

And samatha,

例如安般念等等

such as ānāpāna, et cetera.

受、心、法

Vedanā, citta, dhammā,

这个是根据

this is according to

注释书的解释

the commentaries explanation:

不只是“受”

Not only vedanā alone

我们必须分辨

we must discern,

受

vedanā and

和相应的“行”

associated mental formations.

因为，“受”永远不会单独生起

Because vedanā never arises alone.

它总是伴随着

It always arises with

诸行生起

associated mental formations.

因为这个原因

Because of this reason,

要体证到这个名色

for realization of this nāma,

 [mind] rūpa, [matter]

必须要有

it is necessary

三摩地或禅定

samādhi concentration.

因此，西亚多吉首先教授三摩地

So Sayadawgyi will teach samādhi first

然后

so that then,

禅修者可以清晰地分辨

the meditator can discern

名法和色法

the nāma and rūpa clearly.

西亚多吉，当禅修者一旦

Sayadawgyi, once the meditator

能够清晰地分辨名法和色法

can discern nāma and rūpa clearly,

那么，下一步该做什么？

So then, what is the next step?

下一步，佛陀

The next step is, the Buddha,

在《大念处经》中解释：

in the Mahā Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta, explains:

這樣在身內，在身隨觀身而住

“Iti ajjhattaṃ vā kāye kāyānupassī viharati,

或在身外，在身隨觀身而住

bahiddhā vā kāye kāyānupassī…”

等等，等等

et cetera, et cetera.

内部的名色，外部的名色

Internally nāmarūpa, externally nāmarūpa,

他们必须分辨

They must discern.

之后，佛陀教导说：

After that the Buddha teaches:

在身隨觀集法而住

“Samudayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṃ viharati, [He dwells contemplating the nature of arising in the body]

或在身隨觀滅法而住

vayadhammānupassī vā kāyasmiṃ viharati…” [He dwells contemplating the nature of vanishing in the body]

等等

et cetera

这是缘起

And this is dependent origination.

顺观、逆观

Forward order and backward order.

西亚多吉

Sayadawgyi,

西亚多吉如何教授缘起呢？

how does Sayadawgyi teach dependent origination?

通常，分别名色之后

Usually, after discerning nāmarūpa

根据《食经》

According to the Āhāra Sutta,

通常，我根据此经进行教导

Usually I teach.

《食经》是

Āhāra Sutta is

可能佛陀从中间逆着教授

Maybe Buddha teaches from the middle to, backward,

因此，中间，可能是……例如

So, middle is may be, for example,

你想做的事情

What do you want to do

你在将来想成为……

In future, what do you want to become

在将来

in future.

这里的“将来”

By future,

西亚多吉指的是来世吗？

Sayadawgyi means future life?

来世

Future life.

或许为了让大家更容易理解缘起

Maybe for easy understanding of dependent origination,

佛陀教授

Buddha teaches,

思食

mano sancetana āhāra 

[the nutriment of mental volition]

触食

phassāhāra 

[the nutriment of contact]

受食，等等

vedanāhāra 

[The nutriment of feeling]… et cetera

因此，从这部《食经》

So, from this āhāra [nutriment]

（中间），现在的食

(middle), present āhāra,

我教导大家分别过去的名色

I teach to discern past nāmarūpa.

直至结生的名色

Up to patisandhi nāmarūpa [rebirth-linking mind and matter].

然后，是死亡的名色，过去世

then, cuti nāmarūpa, previous life.

Cuti是前生死亡的刹那

Cuti  is the death moment of the previous life.

死亡刹那的名色

Death moment, nāmarūpa

然后，在死亡刹那之前

Then, before death moment,

我们称之为

There's what we call, close to

接近死亡的刹那

death moment,

存在五个速行

and then there are five javana [mental impulses]

我们尽量分辨这五个速行

These five javana nāmarūpa I try to discern.

我教导大家分辨这个名色的所缘

I teach to discern the object of this nāmarūpa,

因为前生的业

because of previous kamma

会导致结生

which will produce patisandhi [rebirth].

因此，要体证到这个原因

So, for realization (understanding) of this cause

这个死亡速行的所缘非常重要

is the marana javana [death process] object very important.

西亚多吉

Sayadawgyi,

你在教导禅修者的过程中

in all of your time teaching meditators,

通常，这些禅修者能够

Are meditators usually able

分辨他们的前世吗？

to discern their past lives?

通常情况下

Usually,

如果他们系统地修习

if they practice systematically,

如果他们理解四圣谛

if they understand the four noble truths,

通常他们能够理解

usually they do understand.

过去的名色

Past nama-rupa. 

[mind and matter discernment]

这样地修习缘起有什么利益呢？

And what is the benefit of doing the dependent origination practice in that way?

他们会明白

They will get to understand

第一个圣谛，第二个圣谛

the first noble truth, the second noble truth

第三个圣谛

and the third noble truth also

他们能够理解

they can understand.

第三个圣谛是

The third noble truth is,

如果他们能够分别未来

if they discern the future

当他们成为阿罗汉的时候

when they will become arahant.

在那个时候，他们就会看到

At that time, they will see

无明、贪、执取的彻底熄灭

complete cessation of this avijjā, taṇhā, upādāna, [ignorance, craving, clinging]

诸行、业

saṅkhāra, kamma [volitional formations, actions]

彻底熄灭

Complete cessation.

彻底的熄灭就是永远不会再回来

Complete cessation is, never come back again.

我们称之为无余之灭

We call anupaada nirodhā [cessation without remainder]

觉悟到这个真理

For realization of this truth,

觉悟到苦集圣谛

origin of suffering,

苦的彻底熄灭

complete cessation of suffering,

好的定力

good concentration,

清晰地体证到名色

for realization of nāmarūpa clearly

根据究竟法

according to paramattha [ultimate reality], both external and internal, both,

这是必要的

it is necessary.

对于禅修者

For the meditator who,

如果他们已经修习了缘起

already practiced dependent origination,

他们要如何继续下去呢？

then how should they continue?

修习了缘起的禅修者

The meditator who already practiced dependent origination,

他们接着要如何继续下去呢？

then how should they continue?

他们如何继续修习？

How do they continue?

他们如何继续修习？

How do they continue?

下一步将要做什么？

What do they do next?

通常是观禅的修习

Usually, vipassanā [insight meditation].

但是，要修习观禅

But, for practising vipassanā…

在修习之前

Before practising,

相、味、现起、足处

lakkhaṇa-rasa-paccupaṭṭhāna-padaṭṭhāna, [characteristic-function-manifestation-proximate cause]

可能《清净道论》

maybe Visuddhimagga,

指导大家去修习

direct (guide) to practice

相、味、现起、足处

lakkhaṇa-rasa-paccupaṭṭhāna-padaṭṭhāna, [characteristic-function-manifestation-proximate cause]

但是，相、味、现起、足处

But, lakkhaṇa-rasa-paccupaṭṭhāna-padaṭṭhāna, [characteristic-function-manifestation-proximate cause]

是在缘起之前

is before dependent origination

他必须修习的

he must practice

但是，对于一些人

But for some,

相、味

lakkhaṇa-rasa, [characteristic-function]

没有修习缘起，他就无法理解

he cannot understand without practising dependent origination.

例如：什么是眼净色？

For example, what is cakkhu-pasāda [eye sensitivity]?

眼，以应与色接触的种净为相

rūpā-bhighātā-raha-bhūtappasāda-lakkhaṇaṃ cakkhu [sensitivity of primary elements for the impact of visible data]

另外一个意思是：

Another meaning is:

以欲见因缘的业等起的种净为相

daṭṭhukāmatānidāna-kamma-samuṭṭhāna-bhūtappasāda-lakkhaṇaṃ vā cakkhu [sensitivity of primary elements originated by kamma sourcing from desire to see]

这样

In this way,

以欲见因缘的业等起的种净为相

daṭṭhukāmatānidāna-kamma-samuṭṭhāna-bhūtappasāda-lakkhaṇaṃ

大种有四

There are four elements,

它们分别是

which are produced by:

由业产生的

kamma. [action]

这种业的积累是由

This kamma is accumulated this

贪

taṇhā, [craving]

无明和贪

avijjātaṇhā. [ignorance and craving]

什么是无明，什么是贪，等等

What is avijjā [ignorance], what is tanha [craving] etc.

他希望在将来看到

He wants to see in future

这个色

this color, rupa

由于这样的贪欲，他积累了业

With such desire, he accumulated, kamma.

这种业产生了

That kamma produces

四界

four elements,

或者四界的明净

or the translucency of the four elements

这被称为眼净色

is called cakkhu-pasāda. [eye sensitivity]

因此，为了体证到第二个意义

So, for the realization of the second meaning,

需要缘起

dependent origination is necessary.

因为这个原因，通常……

Because of this reason usually…

以前，我教导

previously I teach

首先教导相、味、现起、足处

lakkhaṇa-rasa-paccupaṭṭhāna-padaṭṭhāna first

然后，教导缘起

after that, dependent origination.

缘起之后

After dependent origination,

我再次教导

Again, I must teach

相、味、现起、足处

lakkhaṇa-rasa-paccupaṭṭhāna-padaṭṭhāna.

教导两次

Two times.

然后，修观

Then, go on to vipassanā.

西亚多吉

Sayadawgyi,

当你开始教导观禅的时候

When Sayadawgyi, starts to teach vipassanā,

你在教导观禅的时候使用什么方法呢？

Then what methods does Sayadawgyi use for vipassana teaching?

可能只是根据《无碍解道》

Maybe according to Patisambhida magga [The Path of discrimination] only

分别色法生灭的无常

And, discerning rūpa as arising and vanishing as anicca [impermanence]

首先教导无常相

Anicca-lakkhaṇa [characteristic of impermanence] we teach first

无常相之后

After anicca-lakkhaṇa is OK, then

我们继续教导苦

we continue to teach dukkha [suffering]

无常、苦教授完毕之后

After anicca  dukkha finished,

接着，我们继续教导“无我”

Then, we continue to teach anatta [non-self]

西亚多吉，这样的修习会带来什么结果呢？

Sayadawgyi, what is the result for the meditators

如果这样系统地修习之后？

if they practice all of this systematically?

他们就会看到涅槃

They can see nibbāna.

唯一的结果就是体证到涅槃

For realization of nibbāna only.

名色的彻底熄灭

Complete cessation of nāmarūpa

名法状态的彻底熄灭

Complete cessation state of nāmarūpa

我们教学的目的只是让大家觉悟到涅槃

For realization of this nibbāna we teach only.

到时候，他们就会

At that time, then they will understand

完完全全地明白四圣谛

the four noble truths fully.

萨度！萨度！萨度！

Sādhu, sādhu, sādhu!

好

Okay.

非常感谢你，西亚多吉！

Thank you so much, Sayadawgyi.