人物访谈 | Thomas Bruhn：从天体物理到内在探索，秉持爱与敬畏以行动发出共鸣(中英)

Original Thomas Bruhn WorkFace柏林

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嘉宾：Dr. Thomas Bruhn

共话者：陳易

翻译：陳易、科骏、秀贤

技术支持：科骏、费小曼

设计排版：邓琳洁、陳易

校对：方曼、陈易、科骏

策划统筹：方曼

访谈时间：2020年5月21日

Dr.Thomas Bruhn

GERMANY

Dr. Thomas Bruhn is a physicist who has been working transdisciplinarily at the IASS Potsdam since 2012. His key interest is to facilitate the transformation of human relationality in the earth system in the light of challenges around sustainability.

Since 2016 he is leading the research group AMA (A Mindset for the Anthropocene) on the question how the cultivation of mental qualities like mindfulness and compassion can play a relevant role in socio-ecological transformations. He has also been engaged in research on collective learning and co-creation in the context of political decision-making since 2017.

Thomas enjoys bringing together people and stakeholders from diverse backgrounds in reflexive processes and dialogues that allow for the emergence of more integrated perspectives and action pathways. He is also a trained facilitator of group processes in the tradition of the "art of hosting" and a member of the German association to the Club of Rome.

托马斯·布鲁恩博士（Dr. Thomas Bruhn）是一位物理学家。他于2012年加入了位于波兹坦的可持续发展高等研究院（institute for Advanced Sustainability Studies, IASS），并在此开展跨学科研究，其核心关切是：如何辅助地球系统中人类关联方式的转化，以应对实现可持续发展所面临的共同挑战。

自2016年以来，布鲁恩博士带领”人类世的智识模式（A Mindset for the Anthropocene, AMA）”项目小组，探索诸如正念觉知与慈悲等精神品质的培养，以及其在社会与生态改革中所发挥的作用。

同时，自2017年始，他也致力于政治决策中团体学习（collective learning）与协同创新（co-creation）的研究。布鲁恩博士乐于邀请来自不同背景的参与者共同开展反思与对话，以此促发更为整合的视角与行动策略的形成。他还曾受训于“引导艺术（art of hosting）”这一传统，成为了一名团体进程的引导师。在此之外，他也是罗马俱乐部德国协会的成员。

小提示：此處僅為訪談精華摘要。若想獲得更多細節、並仔細品味Thomas用詞的精微之美，煩請再點擊聆聽音頻噢。

Brief Introduction 我是谁？

Could you define yourself in a brief sentence? Or if you are asked to introduce yourself briefly, what would like to say?

能否用一句话来定义自己？或是简要的介绍自己，你会如何描述？

I am a compassionate bridge builder and a transdisciplinary researcher searching for meaning and sustainable modes of living in the Anthropocene.

我是个具有同理心的联结者，也是一个致力于寻找人类世的意义和可持续生活方式的跨学科研究人员。

AMA：A Space for Question

一个问题空间

Tom：There are so much we could dive into. I'm curious what you will pick up on.

实在有太多可以进一步探索的东西了，我很好奇你接下来会选取怎样的主题？

Yi：I’m interested in many points that you have been touching upon. But first I would really like to hear more about your AMA project. Would you like to elaborate more on it?

的确，我对你所提及的很多话题都十分感兴趣。不过，我想先更多的了解一下AMA这个项目。可以请你给我们详细讲一讲吗？

Tom: Well, What is AMA？What is the project?

那么，什么是AMA，这个项目是什么？

Although I have given responses to this question many times I am always struggling with it. In a way you could say that the project is mainly a space for a question.

尽管这个问题我回复过很多次，现在说来，仍然很矛盾。某种程度上讲，这项目本身属于一个“问题的空间”。

Original image

NASA, ESA, and M. Livio and the Hubble 20th Anniversary Team

And this question is shaped by my trust in the inexplicable inner dimension of our being. The project is a space where people can explore this inner perception of nature for themselves and explore how that is entangled with the outer challenges they face. Our approach based on the experience that the discourse of the community that is interested in sustainability is very separated from people who are interested in consciousness development.

“问题”是被我们所信任的内心临在的难以名状的那个维度所塑造的，在这个空间里，人们可以探索内在认知的本质，同时去探寻外在面临的挑战是如何与内在相纠缠的。我们的方法建立在这样一种体验之上，即关注可持续发展的社群和对人类意识发展感兴趣的人们之间是缺乏对话、相互分隔的。

And our project just started as a community building process.

我们的项目始于社群构建的过程。

In the beginning, we started speaking with people like:

”Well, we talk about technical solutions and policy here, but do you think that is ever going to work if we humans stay as little empathic we are or as little mindful as we are？Don't you think our cultivation of our minds should be part of what they are talking about here？” These were the kind of questions we brought into our conversations.

起初，我们总以这样的方式跟大家打开话题：

“我们在这里讨论技术手段和政策，若人类保持如此有限的同理心、如此有限的正念觉知（mindful），这样如何得以为继呢？人类的心智培育难道不也理应成为今天的议题吗？”

The responses were often like: “Oh, absolutely! For me, personally it's a crucial topic. But I cannot talk about that here. If I do that, I lose my scientific legitimacy or I will be looked at in strange ways.”

回答常常是：“噢，完全是这样的。个人而言，这是一个非常要紧的主题，但我们不能在这里谈。如果这样聊，我们可能会失去科学性或者让人听起来感觉很奇怪。”

There are a lot of prejudices about people who are interested in inner aspects of cultivating the minds even among psychologists and particularly psychology academics. Human-centered psychology is only one trend among many and it seems to me that it is far more spread among practitioners than among academics and researchers.

（外界对）从事内在心智建构和培育感兴趣的人存在着很多偏见，甚至是心理学家、尤其是学院派心理学家。人本（以人为中心）心理学只是诸多趋势中的一支，所以在我看起来，这一支在实践界中的影响力远超学术界与研究界。

So we said: OK. Let us just create a space where people who share this interest can meet in a trustworthy atmosphere and find out together where we perceive this dissonance between our inner human experience and the outer phenomena in the world.

于是，我们说，好，让我们来创造这样一个空间，让拥有共同兴趣的人们、在可信赖的氛围中遇见，一起找寻人类内在经验和世界外在现象之间的不和谐之处。

点击图片了解AMA

AMA宣言

我们致力于在关系中探索知行与临在；

我们共创丰盈的地球社群；

我们承认自己的局限性；

我们拥抱多维的真理；

我们视蜕变为自我与世界的互动过程；

我们是成长中的命运共同体；

我们臣服于超越自身理解力的存在。

And how could we in our own specific context move towards a somewhat greater coherence or harmony. So, connecting these people who are often isolated and felt lost in their context here, that was the key ambition in the beginning. And it's still also the intention that I'm holding most dearly to my heart. I care about those people who are in a systems context, e.g. in a government agency or in a company, and they feel that their practices are not resonating with the deeper sensations for their heart and intuition. But they struggled to integrate this. And what they told us they need is on the one hand legitimacy to make sure their efforts are taken seriously. They also said that they need information or inspiration how could this integration could take place concretely and they were looking for like-minded people with whom to learn together because all alone many people feel overwhelmed.

我们如何从特定背景（语境）中实现更大程度的和谐与一致性？所以，把那些孤立的、迷失在自身境地中的人联结起来，就是我们的初衷。现在这仍然是我最情有独钟的动机。

我关注那些在体系环境中的人，例如政府机构、企业中的人，他们觉得自己的工作实践与其内心、直觉深处的感知没有发生共鸣，可是他们很难去整合。他们告诉我们的是，他们一方面需要合理性（legitimacy），保证尝试整合的努力被认真对待；同时，他们也需要关于如何整合的具体信息或启示，他们也在寻找有共识的人们一起学习，因为人们独自面对时、往往不堪重负。

So what our project is doing threefold:

On the one hand, we do research that gives words to the relevance of this inquiry process. So we ask ourselves: Why does it make sense to look into this connection between inner transformation and outer sustainability？What could be an understanding that actually does not separate the two but sees it as a relational change, meaning a change of our way of relating? This framing around relationality is quite important because it draws on philosophical threads and concepts that are not representing the mainstream here in Europe.

我们的项目分为三个方面：

首先，我们开展研究，为探索过程命名。我们问自己：为什么探寻内在转化和外在可持续性的关系是有意义的？这会是怎样的一种知见，假若我们不将其二分、而是作为一种关系性的改变？这个“关系型”的框架特别重要，在于其采用的哲学脉络和概念并不代表欧洲主流。

The other thing is community building. We organize events where people can engage in this mutual learning process with people from complementary backgrounds. Some are more from the focus on “inner” cultivation – be it psychologists or people with more spiritual background – and on the other hand people with more of an “outer” focus, such as politicians, people related to technology development and also people who are engaged in cultural practice.

第二，我们进行社区构建。我们组织各式活动，人们在参与过程里、从互补的背景中相互学习。有些人，如心理学家更加关注“内在”修养，或还有人具有修行背景的，另一些人，比如政治家会更关注“外在”，有人会关心技术进步，还有的人则参与文化的实践。

And the third part is a practicing. We see ourselves as a learning group of this integration process and we aspire to grow deeper into that coherence. We see that practice as part of our research. We don't just want to do cognitive research about something but we want to try to live it also in the way how we communicate, how we work as a team with each other, and how we create institutions for us. Lots of that aspiration is in conflict with the dominant culture of the institutions around us. So we see us as a living cell in our systemic context of the topic we are researching about.

第三，实践。我们是在整合进程中的学习共同体，渴望进入深层的一致性之中。我们将这个实践作为研究的一部分。我们不愿仅开展认知层面的研究，我们要活在其中，用沟通、团队合作或创建运行机制来践行。许多的愿望与围绕在我们周围的机构所体现的主导文化是冲突的，因此，我们将自身视为该主题系统情境下的一个活泼泼的生命细胞分子。

One concrete thing maybe interesting to share here is a platform where we are collecting this process.

在这里分享一件有趣的事情，我们正在构建平台去整合这个过程。

So this platform collects and visualizes the people, organizations and projects that are interested in this integration process. Under www.ama-project.org you find a visual compass like a navigation tool for this emerging field. We are providing this because many people say that there is nobody else who is doing this kind of work. And actually, there are many people who do this. They are just hidden and each of them believes they are alone. We want to make them visible as a field of agents who work independently, but at the same time are already an emerging field of some new paradigm of this integration.

这个平台聚集和可视化地呈现了聚集在这个整合过程中的人、组织和项目，在AMA网站（www.ama-project.org）上你能找到一个视觉罗盘，作为这个新兴领域里的导航工具。我们提供这样的服务，因为许多人常常说，在自己身边似乎没人从事这类型的工作。实际上，有很多人都在做这样的事情。这些人只是隐藏了而每个人都觉得自己很孤独。我们想要让这些独立工作的人——作为领域里的媒介——被看到，同时这也成为新兴领域里某种整合的新范式。

资料来自Dr. Thomas Bruhn

I think many others are doing similar work, but in our context so close to policy, we are not aware anyone else is doing that.

我想许多其他人都在做相似的工作，但由于我们比较靠近政策背景，可能就没能意识到还有其他人也在做同样的事情。

The Fascinating Tension in

Self & Universe

小我与宇宙：令人着迷的张力

One thing before it gets lost: You touched on of the topic of the universe. And also you said the that this mingling of cultures is already happening.

在我忘记之前，先说一件事情：你谈及到宇宙这个话题，也提到这种文化融合已经在发生。

For me, the topic of “A mindset for the Anthropocene” is clearly the hope that I hold in my heart that actually this could be part of the emergence of a “conscious planet” so to speak. I have difficulty aligning with any religion in particular. But I feel a deep trust in the nature of evolution, as the intrinsic logic of this path that we are part of. And maybe that is something that is approached with the word Dao – I don't know enough about that but maybe this is something for us to explore together.

对我，“人类世的智识模式”（AMA）是很明晰的一个愿望，真心希望它可以成为正在涌现的“觉醒星球”的一部分。很难说这与任何的宗教有一致性，但我对演化的本质深信不疑，就像我们所在的这条内在道路的逻辑。这可能靠近所谓的“道”，但我对此知之甚少，可能也是未来我们可以共同探索的部分。

I originally started astrophysics, including cosmology which is the scientific perspective around the origins and development of the universe. And I feel trust in these laws of self-organization of nature. I am part of that. From my understanding, there were always the forces that segregate matter into different entities and on the other hand the forces that connect, and they were always in some kind of dynamic——balance or harmony—— throughout the evolution process.

最初我（研究）开始于天体物理学，包括宇宙学，这是围绕宇宙起源与发展的自然科学。我相信这些自然自组织的法则，我也是其中的一部分。据我理解，总是存在将物质分解为不同实体的力，另一方面，也总是有相互吸引的力存在，他们总是经由演化的过程达成某种动态平衡或和谐状态。

And maybe that's all that we are helping facilitate here: the balance between these forces.The whole process of the universe from the is a continuation of that logic of self-organization into different entities that always stay connected.

可能这也是我们在这里所要促进的全部事情：这些力量间的平衡。整个宇宙就是一个不断在自组织逻辑中分解为不同实体、又保持相互吸引的连续过程。

Our project is often circling around the phrase “identity in relationality”. We consider identities never to be separate but always in relationship, and the self is always also an embodiment of the whole field. And I have the hope that our current process is like the globalization of this kind of conscious web of life.

我们的项目常常循环往复于“关系中的身份”这个词。我们认为“身份”从来、无法与“关系”割裂，且永远在“关系”之中，而“我”总是被镶嵌于整个场域之中。我有一个愿望是，这种具有意识的生命网络（Web of life 类似于“生命共同体”）能够进入到全球化进程之中。

But that's kind of a very big thing to hold in my heart. And I don't know whether it really makes sense or whether it even really matters, It feels a bit paradoxical to me, because while I hold this hope for a more conscious and harmonic planetary being. I also experience that I am quite happy to shrink into my own small self. I do not only embody the big planet but simultaneously also relax into the small subjective being that I am as Thomas Bruhn sitting here in a park in the shadow of a tree.

但这在我心里是一件特别重要的事，不知道这是否真的有意义或是紧要。对我来说有些矛盾，因为当我怀抱一个希望，期待存在一个更有觉知、更和谐的星球时，又体验到自己退守到“小我”里的愉悦感。我不仅仅是这个大的星球的具象化，同时也是一个小的、主体的、放松的存在，比如我，Thomas Bruhn，现在就坐在公园的树荫下。

受访所在地：Neuer Garten in Potsdam
图片来自Dr. Thomas Bruhn

I come from a culture that has emphasized this notion of “do-ability” in the sense of making things happen and controlling the physical world. Many people still hold this idea that you can control the earth and you have to develop big technologies to manipulate the world into being this or that. To me, this notion is in many ways super arrogant but I believe it comes from this idea of being separated from the earth. Being a particle of a relational field to me means that I can never control the field. I can just be a conscious part of it – as conscious of the whole as I can but never losing my ability to also be this “small self”. Because only as that small self I am active. So that's kind of the fascinating tension that I’m sitting in.

我来自于一个强调“行动力”（Do-ability）的文化——意味着制造“发生”并掌控“物理世界”。许多人还在持有一种观念，人们能控制地球并且你不得不发展更高科技去操控世界，成为这样或是那样。于我，这种概念在多个层面上都极其自大，我想其源于与自然分离的想法。

作为一个关系场域中的一部分，这意味着我永远无法掌控场域。我可以觉察到其中的一个部分——尽我所能意识到整体，但是永远无法失去成为这个“小我”的能力，也正因为这个“小我”，我才活跃。

这就是我身处其中的、某种令人着迷的张力。

For me the whole journey starts with being six years old and having a poster of the Earth above my bed and looking at this picture and feeling: How beautiful is this planet? What a miracle is it that I am part of this ball in the universe？And how many miracles are happening on this planet. I still hold this love and this awe for the beauty of this world. And I want to act in resonance with what it means to love this whole planet. And at the same time I am just a small human being and I'm just living my life for a couple of decades. And both notions exist at the same time. That's the learning process I hope to catalyze through the AMA project.

对我来说，整个旅程始于我六岁时，床的上方有一张地球海报，我看着图片感觉：这个星球多么美啊？这是怎样的一个奇迹，尽然身处于这样一个宇宙的一个星球之中？又有多少奇迹在这些星球里发生着？我仍然对这个世界秉持着这份爱和敬畏，对整个星球的爱的意义之处，我期待以行动发出共鸣的回应。与此同时，我也仅仅是一个小小的人儿（沧海一粟），我也仅仅活上几十年，这两种概念是同时存在的。这是一个学习的过程，我期待通过AMA项目来促进这一过程。

I would like stop here for a moment. There are so many dreams and visions that come up when I speak like this to you. For now I would like to pause and hear what comes up for you.

我想停在这里。当我对你描述的同时，还有许多梦想和图景不断涌现，现在，我就先到此为止，也想听听你现在想到的。

Resonance in Silence

共鸣回应：无声胜有声

Yi: I'm super fascinated by everything that you have been talking about. I remembered that last year we were at the conference called Beyond Boundary where the psychologist Dan Siegel has shared his idea of mWE with us (me+WE=mWE), as being individual yet at the same time, collective. There was also a wonderful Russian philosopher who quoted a Sanskrit verse which says that we would first have to be separated in order to be to be collective. That is very interesting. Science has been informing us about the holographic aspect of existence, as each of us reflects the whole. And at the same time, each and every individual is also impacting the whole. In a sense that even by just sitting under this beautiful tree in the shadow, it already does some work for the conscious planet.

你所提及的一切都非常有趣，它让我想起去年在”突破边界”的会议上，一位叫做Dan Siegel的心理学家向我们介绍的Me+We=Mwe的概念。它意指我们通过个人生命实践（me）而实现大我的群体生命（WE）的进程。一位俄罗斯哲学家还当场背诵了一段梵文偈颂，大意是我们要先分离为个体才能重新融通为一。科学家们早已告知我们全息的观念，即每一个体都蕴含着整体的信息、并完美地反映着整体。同时，每一个体也无时无刻不在影响着整体。这意味着，仅仅是坐在树下的阴影中，我们已然为“觉醒星球”做出了自己的贡献。

偈颂：梵语"偈佗"的又称。即佛经中的唱颂词。每句三字、四字、五字、六字、七字以至多字不等，通常以四句为一偈。亦多指释家隽永的诗作。百度百科

There's so many fascinating themes emerging from your sharing. Now I would really love to have fives minutes of silence to digest all of these things. There was a question coming into my mind while listening to you—I see that the process of “relating” has been one of the key elements in your sharing. That seems to be achieved by the practice of “resonance”. While being in the field, you’ve described a process of “turning in,” which for me also implies a certain understanding of our collective being, as what are we tuning in and what could we tune in？Equally important, how could we tune in？Would you mind sharing with us some of your experience, on relating to others and on resonance, particularly concerning the work of AMA in the transcultural and transdisciplinary context?

你的分享中涉猎了太多精彩的主题。我真的希望能拥有五分钟的静默来消化它们。在聆听时，我观察到“与他者相关联”（the process of relating)是一个关键性的主题。它似乎是通过“共鸣/谐振”（resonance）来实现的。而身处场域之中时，你向我们描述了一种调频（turning in）的状态。它似乎揭示了某种对于大我的理解。

我的问题是，我们正在通过调频进入的是什么？我们能够通过调频深入的是什么？而且这种调频是怎样进行的呢？可以请你同我们分享一些在跨学科、跨文化的大背景下，在AMA的工作中“与他者关联”和“共鸣/谐振”的经验吗？

Tom：I share your impulse to have a moment of silence.

和你一样，我也想要沉思片刻。

While we are speaking, I’m always looking around here: The birds are singing and I am sitting in the shadow of the trees, and there is some quality of silence even as we speak as well.

当我们在对话时，我也在注视四周：鸟儿在歌唱、我坐在树荫下处，感受一种宁静的欢愉。

Meaningful conversation

有意义的对话：在此安住

Several things came to my mind. You mentioned about this concepts and the mWE. Some other philosopher speaks of the inter-being… I have mixed feelings.

It's so strange: I see the value of all these new concepts. At the same time, I feel it's just more concepts. It's very difficult for me. Just today I saw a conversation with a German sociologist that I really appreciate. He is a very smart guy. But it's very clear to me from my perception: He's not embodying what he's talking about. And that is something that I'm also sitting with. We can talk about lots of things and there's so much knowing available in this world. The quality that I feel is lacking is the being. And this being for some people it may be access to first know about things. But I'm worried that we worship the knowing so much that we neglect the being. So, personally, I emphasize the being because so much knowing is already there.

你提及了些概念和“WE”，和其他哲学家说到的”内在”。我的脑海浮现一些念头，颇为五味杂陈。

一方面我看到了这些新概念的价值；但同时我认为这不过是概念的堆砌，这让我感到很困惑。就在今天和一位钦佩的德国社会学家进行了谈话。他非常聪明，但感知清晰地告诉我，他尚未做到知行合一。而这却是我目前真正关切的问题。世上知识之海浩渺，我们可以遨游无尽；我却感到少了对存在的探索。对某些人来说，收获新知很有意义；但我亦担心过度知识崇拜，会让我们忽略存在的真正意义。于我而言，会更强调后者。

And somehow when we spoke, I was reminded of Jelaluddin Rumi, a Persian mystic from the 13th century. There is a poem in which he describes how he is moving around from one tradition to the other trying to find God and wisdom. But he didn't find Him at the Christian cross. He didn't find Him in the temples and pagodas and so forth. And then at the end of all his journeys from one culture to the other he says:

“I then turned into my heart. And it was there where he dwelled that I found him. He was nowhere else to be found.”

I'm sitting with that. So, as much as I appreciate the many beautiful concepts that are being brought to me, I always feel: Let's not over emphasize them.

畅谈之际，我想到了十三世纪的波斯诗人鲁米（Jelaluddin Rumi）。他有一首诗描述自己如何四处遍寻上帝和智慧。无论西方的十字架下、还是东方的庙宇或宝塔里，他都没有找到它。而在这场跨文化探索旅途的尽头，他说: 最后我转向我的心灵。原来它在此安住，从不在别处。

鲁米出生于呼罗珊境内的巴尔赫，逝世于今日土耳其境内的科尼亚。他一生主要以波斯语写作，也有少量以阿拉伯语、希腊语写出的作品。他的作品影响广泛，其中最为重要的是其诗集《玛斯纳维》突破语言的障碍而流传于世界各地。联合国教科文组织宣布2007年为“国际鲁米年”，以纪念其出生800周年。（摘自维基百科）

So about AMA: Yes, there are a few learning that I could share. The most important experience for me is: whenever people come together, I witness the tendency to jump immediately into the content we want to talk about, our opinions and positions about a certain topic. People, however, easily get into fights about that.

What I find crucial is to start with the questions: Why are we actually connecting？What are the real motivations that bring us into our conversation？Only if there is somewhat a shared perception of these motivations it makes sense to talk about what is the content we want to talk about.

回到AMA，是的，我可以分享一些经验。最重要的一点，我观察到：无论何时人们见面，总是想急着跳进正题，并开始争论。这点非常值得讨论。

我认为应该从关键问题开始：我们为何联结? 是什么真正驱动我们开始讨论? 只有当对这些初心建立某种程度的共识后，再进入主题才有意义。

And the second thing is (but maybe there's also cultural conditioning here):

I observed a dominant culture that people meet as roles and representatives of a company or as stakeholders, or as experts of something.Meaningful conversation, however, needs people to become present as persons, as whole beings.

第二点(或受文化条件的制约): 我观察到一种主导的文化：与会者是公司代表、或利益相关者角色，或某种专家身份。有意义的对话，却需要人们在当下——以完整的人的姿态。

So in the beginning of all the events that I host if I have enough freedom to design it that way, I always emphasize giving people the opportunity to really share their stories about “who you are” and “why you are here”.

But it needs to be explicitly invited, particularly when different cultural contexts are mingling. For example, there was one conference that I hosted here together with Man Fang last October. I think we took about 2.5 hours for the participants to just get to know who is in the room. We made visible from which different parts of the world everybody is coming from, which different perspectives or disciplines people are representing, and gave enough time in small group conversations at the beginning so that everybody could feel comfortable with each other as persons and could feel fully present.

在我主持的所有活动开场，如果可以由我设计，我总是尽量给予与会者机会，去真正分享他们自己的故事，关于你们是谁？为何在这里?

特别是在不同的文化融合背景下，我们需要将这一进程明确地纳入活动规划中。例如去年十月我和方曼共同主持了一个会议，只是让与会者互相认识就花了两个半小时。一开始我们就让大家了解每个人从世界上哪个地方来、代表什么样不同的观点或专业，并在小组讨论中给足够的时间让大家彼此相识并适应，进而能完全融入。

Maybe that is something that you don't need if you can ground on a relational understanding. Maybe in a Chinese context you can take this as a given. Maybe you can just come together and you feel and embody that relationality immediately and be present with your emotional life. Here in my work context, it’s usually not the case. It needs an explicit framing and invitation to give people the question. Who are you and why are you here？And I usually prefer groups of three for these initial conversations because it allows people to connect a bit deeper as human beings.

也许你并不需要如此，如果你能建立一种相互理解的关系的话。也许在中国的背景下，这是自然的做法。也许你们可以一见面，立即感受并体现出这种感性与理性交织的状态。而在我的工作环境中，通常并非如此。它需要一个明确的框架和邀请：你是谁？你为什么在这里？我通常更喜欢三人一组进行最初的对话，因为这样可以让我们作为人类有更深层次的联系。

Process Flow in Events

过程与流动

The processes of our events follow a certain flow.

整个流程通常如下所示:

We start with the real world context that people come from and a concrete motivation, like maybe some specific challenge.

第一阶段，基于与会者的现实场景和实在动机，从其面临的某个特殊挑战开始；

The second phase would be to explore this challenge a bit more. What is the systemic nature of these challenges？And how is my own inner being entangled with it？

第二阶段，深入探索挑战。该挑战的系统本质是什么？我的内在存在如何与之纠缠?

The third phase would be providing experience and perspective change. That could be a contemplative practices or a body experience. It can be perspective changing exercises such as role plays but also short inspiring impulses or group conversations about relevant academic knowledge or inspiring story telling sessions.

第三阶段是体验和观念改变。可能是进行一种冥想的练习或身体体验。可以是改变视角的练习，如角色扮演等短暂而有启发性的瞬间，或是相关学术知识的小组对话，或是生命故事分享。

The fourth phase is visioning. Based on the experience and inspiration from the third phase, we reflect: What kind of visions of your being and of your contexts come to you as new orientation for the future?

第四阶段是建立愿景。基于第三阶段的体验和灵感，我们反思：你的存在和你所处的环境，什么样的愿景会引领你的未来？

In the fifth phase we translate this back into specific action in the context that you are part of. Often, after a beautiful experience like a meditation retreat or an inspiring training you come back into your work and are quickly overwhelmed by your surroundings. So our process has to end with an element of coaching where people support each other in translating their experience and insights into specific action.

第五阶段，我们将这一点转化为你所参与的具体行动。通常，在经历了一次冥想静修或鼓舞人心的训练之后，你回到工作中，很快就会被周围的环境所淹没。因此，在过程结束之际，我们必须提供指导，即人们如何相互支持，将其经验和洞见转化为具体行动。

And then in the end it is also crucial to say farewell to each other to disconnect from the field. Because when you come together for a workshop for three days, as you enter the field and you invite people to connect, it's also important to make a conscious transition out of this particular field that you've constituted for a couple of days, maybe sometimes only a few hours.

最后，彼此告别、离开场域——分离过程也是至关重要的。因为当你们一起参加为期三天的研讨会，进入这个场域时邀请人们建立联系，当离开这相处几天、或只是几个小时的场域时，做出有意识的转变也是很重要的。

Those are the six phases:

(1) Who are we and why are we here？

(2）What is actually our challenge？

(3) What are experiences we can make to broaden our horizon?

(4) What visions come to us as we have left our comfort zone?

(5) How do these changed visions and experiences translate into specific action in my personal context?

(6) A proper farewell.

That's the rough architecture for the processes I love to facilitate.

六阶段流程的小结:

(1) 我们是谁? 为何在这里?

(2)什么是我们真正的挑战?

(3)什么样的体验可以拓展我们的视野？

(4）离开舒适圈时，我们有哪些愿景?

(5)对我来说，这些愿景和体验可以转变为何种行动？

(6) 得体的告别。

简要的说，就是我所喜爱的过程引导流程设计.

Closing

访谈结束

Could share with us a motto or some words as the closure of our interview?

可否向大家分享您喜欢的一句话或者座右铭，作为本次访谈的结束?

There is no teacher who can teach us anything new – (s)he can only help us to remember what we always knew.

没有老师能教我们，（她）他只能帮助回忆起我们已知的一切。

Appreciation

欣赏与感激

Yi：Thanks so much for the sharing. I think today we really had a glimpse of this beauty of a heart and the nature of reality. And I believe this sharing would nourish each and everyone of us who have been listening or will be listening in the future.

非常感谢你的分享！今日我们有缘瞥见心灵之美与自然的本质。我相信今日的分享能够滋养它的每一位听众。

Tom：You are so kind. Thank you for your touching wonderful reflections back to me.

真好，谢谢你给我带来美好又感动的思考。

I enjoy these conversations with you very much also because they bring more clarity for myself. I think I shared that with you after our conversation on Tuesday. In connecting with you, I realize something about myself. So it's a very enriching experience for me as well. I was looking forward to this conversation and at the same time also curious how I would deal with the format. Now I feel very connected with you and very touched.

我非常享受和你的对话，因为这些对话让我越来越清晰。我记得在周二的时候分享过，在和你的联结中，我慢慢认识到自己的某些部分。这是一次很充盈的体验，我一直非常期待和你的这次对话，并且特别好奇会如何开展这次交流。今天的对话让我和你有了联结，我也很感动。

Thank you so much in various ways; for taking the time, but also for giving me the space to share these aspects of my own reflections. I admit that there are not so many opportunities where I can share so much also from the heartfelt dimensions of all of my being and doing.

要在不同的层面上谢谢你，感激你的时间并提供这样的空间分享我这些思考。必须承认，很少有这样的机会让我发自内心分享关于自己的存在（Being）和正在做的事情（Doing）。

I feel very honored and privileged that the space has been given to me by you and by Man. It is still a rare occasion for me to speak like this. And I hope that it makes sense for others and that it can be a resource for others who have been listening to it. Thank you very much for the attention that you've given to me as a present. I think its late night for you in China, so I wish you all the best and good night.

非常荣幸。你和方曼能给我这样一个空间，用这样的方式表达，于我而言确实非常难得。希望这次的交流能给参与的听众带来启示和有意义的东西。在此祝福远在中国深夜的大家晚安，祝大家一切安好。（完）