APEC访谈 | 奥巴马对话马云：为什么你对气候保护充满热情？（附视频&对话稿）
11月18日中午消息，美国总统奥巴马邀请中国企业家阿里巴巴集团董事局主席马云在APEC会议上就气候变化，环境保护和创业精神进行讨论，奥巴马一连向马云提了5个问题。
马云在对话中表示，面对环境保护等问题，现在仍然担忧，那就太晚了，我们要行动，一起努力。
https://v.qq.com/txp/iframe/player.html?vid=r0173trlb69&width=500&height=375&auto=0
演讲结束后，马云受邀同美国总统奥巴马进行了对话。围绕气候变化、环境保护，以及创业精神等话题，奥巴马一连向马云提了5个问题。
马云在对话中表示，面对环境保护等问题，现在仍然担忧，那就太晚了，我们要行动，一起努力。
以下是双方对话实录：
奥巴马：马云今天早上的演讲已经点燃了整场的气氛，作为演讲嘉宾，在他后面讲感到压力很大。我会让演讲尽可能的简短一些。让我邀请Jack上台。他是我的偶像。大家都知道Jack是企业家，不过可能你们不知道他还热衷气候变化的应对，参与清洁能源。
马云，为什么你对气候保护充满热情？为什么你觉得企业应该在环境变化的问题中发挥作用？
马云：不是热情，而是深深的担忧，促使我对环境和气候变化投入精力。当我12岁的时候， 我到一个湖里游泳，差点淹死，因为那个湖比我想象的深很多。而5年前我故地重游，整个湖都干了。大家身边都有年轻朋友都死于癌症。20年前，几乎没人听说过癌症，而今天，很多家庭，我身边的很多朋友遭受着癌症的痛苦。
如果没有一个健康的环境，无论赚多少钱，都将面临环境变坏的灾难，这就是我们的忧虑。从六年前开始，我们把阿里巴巴集团千分之三的收入捐献出来，鼓励帮助年轻人找到解决环境问题的创新方式，一起去面对这个问题。
当然，钱永远都是不够的，但钱是用来帮助唤醒人们的意识，让人们知道，气候在出现问题，食品安全有问题，水质有问题，从而认真的去对待和解决这个问题。这就是我们的思考。
未来的机会在哪里？阿里巴巴一直相信，机会永远在最麻烦、让你忧虑的地方。你能够解决多大的麻烦，就能够产生多大的机会。
几年前，比尔盖茨打电话给我，邀请我一起推动清洁的能源，我觉得这是一个很好的主意，这也是我们可以贡献的东西。
15年前，我们是小公司，现在我们变大了，是一家跟很多公司不一样的公司。但是我们认为，不管你是一家什么样的公司，如果你不关心环境、食品和水，那么不管你的企业是大还是小，你都很难生存下来。
奥巴马：我们看到在很多国家，年轻的创业者使用高科技，进行了跨越式的发展。同样的，在亚洲和非洲的很多地方，连电话线都没有铺设，人们直接跨越到移动设备，而且显然每天从阿里巴巴买东西。
重要的是，他们不需要巨额投资于基础设施，这部分导致了过去我们脑子里的“发展”这个概念、“环境可持续”这个概念有些故事了。
这提出了一个问题，我们应该怎么做来支持年轻的创业者马云，你做过白手起家的创业者，现在也成为成功的企业家，经历过两种阶段，你觉得，大公司和政府如何创造好的环境给年轻的创业者？
马云：政府很简单，减税就好了，别对年轻创业者收税。
奥巴马：你得到了你CEO同行的欢呼。
马云：但是我认为，我听到这些创业者的故事感到非常激动。创业公司对创业者来说就是他们的小孩，我到今天有了五个“小孩”，我是一个有经验的父亲了。阿里巴巴、淘宝、支付宝等等，这些是我的孩子。
我觉得对创业者来说，没有人能帮到你，我们只能帮助自己。投资者，合伙人，政府他们是叔叔阿姨，你才是父母，不要放弃你的小孩。当我们开始谈论自己的小孩，自己的激情时，都听起来很疯狂，你是那个照顾小孩的人。
我们所做的是创造一个平台，我们的任务是赋能。今年双11我们平台上有145亿美元的交易，今年我们会有5000亿美元的总交易额。我们不出售任何东西，我们帮助别人出售，我们的任务是帮助其他企业实现他们的梦想。
我们平台上有个app，他们追踪卡车，因为卡车物流一般把东西从这个城市送到那个城市，但是他们回来时候是空载的，这个应用就是解决这个问题，帮助卡车司机减少空载。我们的科技和平台帮助这家企业，去年一年，这家企业就帮助节省了价值15亿美元的燃油。这是用创新的方式使用科技。
中小企业永远最有创新力，大企业保持创新很难。当我们看到这样的企业时，我们激动，我们资助他们，我们用科技支持他们，如果他们是环境友好型的企业。在我们的平台上，我们会推广他们。
奥巴马：马云，在中国，人们正在越来越关心环境，你觉得你的同行企业家在关注这种转变吗？
马云：以中国为例，比如北京的雾霾，导致更多人关注环境。因为雾霾，政府和所有的企业都改变了非常多。我几周前从北京回来，我喉咙都是疼的。
我组织了一个桃花源基金，我邀请了中国的45位商业领袖，一起加入，投入资金。这是一个由政府、企业、科学家、社会学家和慈善家等等一起联手的组织。有很多事情，企业应该更积极自觉的来做。
现在讨论谁的错已经太晚了，美国的错还是我们的错，我们要一起解决问题。我们如何联合在一起，更高效的做事？我一直相信，做公益，你应该有慈善的心，商业的方法来实践，因为这是做成事情的最有效方法。
科学家应该想的是如何正确的做事，企业家则应该考虑如何有效的做事，政府应该创造很好的环境和基础，做基础研究，我们也需要媒体来告诉大众怎么做。
亚太地区，特别是中国，我们采取了很多好的措施，但是我们应该探索一个更有效方法。我在美国纽约州布兰登买了一块覆盖着森林的土地，我买这块土地的原因，不是为了买下森林，是想要买经验，看看美国人在上个世纪是怎么解决自己的环境污染问题的。
我们把这些技术和经验带回到中国，带到这个半边的世界。这就是机会。现在仍然担忧，那就太晚了，我们要行动，一起努力。
US PRESIDENT BARACK OBAMA: Innovators are coming up with new ideas every single day... which brings me to my two partners here for this panel: Jack Ma and Aisa Mijeno.
Aisa is an entrepreneur here in the Philippines who launched a start-up around a brilliant idea, which is selling lamps that run on nothing more than saltwater. She's an engineer. She'll have to explain the physics around this thing. (laughter from the audience)
And I guess you've heard of Jack (laughter). But he's not just the founder of Alibaba, a giant in e-commerce. He also happens to be a leader on environmental issues like clean water and climate change.
And part of what we thought would be useful was to have a young, new entrepreneur, a young-at- heart-but-not-as-young large entrepreneur... (laughter) ... compare notes about why they see this as an opportunity, why they think it is good in a business sense, as well as good in an enrivonmental sense, and how we collectively can be supportive and encouraging of the kind of innovation that they represent. So with that, we'll begin our discussion. Thank you.
(President Obama takes his place at one of the&n 38 38047 38 14746 0 0 7854 0 0:00:04 0:00:01 0:00:03 7851bsp; seats in the middle of the stage, beside Ma and Mijeno. He serves as moderator of the panel.)
OBAMA: Let me start with you, Jack.... Is the mic on (Laughter and "Yes" from the audience.)? Yes? All right.
Jack, I know you've been passionate about the need to...(Laughter from the audience over something flashed on the screen behind them). Something's going on here...
SOMEONE FROM THE AUDIENCE: It's good!
OBAMA: Huh? Is it working? (Audience says yes.)
Okay.... (To Jack) I know you've been passionate about the need to fight climate change. I wanna get a sense from you why you think it's so important. I also wanna get a sense of why you think it's so important that business has a role in this process, and I know that in addition to the work that you have been doing with non-profits recently, you've also been in conversations with Bill Gates about the potential of really turbo-charging investment in research and development around clean energy, and we may be able to make some announcements about this sort of mission-innovation in Paris. Give me a sense of how it looks to you from the vantage point of one of the biggest and most successful e-commerce organizations in history.
JACK MA: Thank you, President. Well, it's not the passion; it's the concern or worry. When I was 12 years old, I went to swim in a lake, and I almost died in that lake, because the water was much deeper than I thought. About five years ago, I went to that lake again. The total lake was dry. And a lot of people have disease (sic).
And the second concern is that young colleagues died of cancer. Twenty years ago, very few people have heard about the cancer word, but now almost—most—of the families, my friends, they have people with cancers.
So if we've been working so hard... if we work so hard, and put all the money in the hospital, buying medicine, it will be a disaster. Why should we be working? So without a healthy environment of this earth, no matter how much money you make, no matter how wonderful you are, you're in a bad disaster. So it's the concern we have.
We started six years ago to put 0.3 percent of the money—of the total Alibaba revenue—encouraging, to enable all the young people to find creative ways to solve the problem. And I think the money is not always enough, but the money we use try to wake up the people's consciousness, should know that the climate change is a problem, they should know, they should agree that the water is the problem, the food is in the problem, so that is what we think... and after doing that, we think -- what Alibaba believes is, where's the opportunity? The opportunity always lies in the place where people worry. If you solve the worry problem, that's the greatest opportunity you have.
So after five years we finally find that there is a huge chance... As you said, two weeks ago, Bill Gates called me, invited me to join forces together, investing in clean technology. I think it's a fantastic idea and I think me and the company believe this is something that we can do in contribution.
As we say, we are not a big company compared to 50 years ago, we were big. But compared to 50 years later, we are small. But if we do not care about this earth—we do not care about the water, food, environment—I think nobody can survive, whether you're big or small. So this is the concern, this is the worry I have.
OBAMA: Excellent. Now you mentioned the need for continuous innovation in this area and that is why we have Aisa here. And Jack remembers when he was starting a company. Aisa is sort of in that early stage. But as an engineer by training, you had an idea that could both do well and do good. So tell us a little bit about what your idea was. Tell us about SALt, and what lessons have you learned as a young entrepreneur in terms of making an impact.
MIJENO: First of all, let me take this opportunity to express my deepest appreciation for allowing me to sit with you, Mr. President, Mr. Ma, to share our advocacy and vision in SALt, and of course tackle a more serious matter like climate change. It's really, truly an honor.
So, my brother and I founded SALt—it's Sustainable Alternative Lighting—and our main advocacy is we wanted to address the light inequality gap, first in the Philippines, by focusing on the people at the bottom of the pyramid, because it comprises of about 15 to 20 percent of the country's population.
Now, most of these families live on island, island communities, and they are not connected to power grids, so they mainly use kerosene and fuel-based lamps as the main source of lighting, and we know the danger that kerosene lamps pose—it can cause fire accidents, it emits black carbon—so that's the main reason why what we want is, we wanted to provide this people with a lighting option that is more cost-effective, that is more safe, more sustainable, and environment-friendly, by a way of a lantern that uses saline solution or ocean water as a means, a catalyst to generate electricity. In turn it will be able to power up LED and of course power up a USB port where you can also charge low-power mobile devices like your phone, which is very essential in times of emergencies or disaster scenarios.
So that's how we're trying to, of course, contribute in terms of climate change. We are starting with the lamp, and what we see, the huge impact that we'll be able to contribute is when we try or when we dive into developing like a large-scale for the technology that we have. Just imagine if you'll be able to power up a whole island using saltwater. Our planet is composed of 70 percent saltwater, so that's what we're trying to aim for.
OBAMA: That's great! (Applause.) Just to be clear, Aisa, so with some saltwater, the device that you've set up can provide, am I right, eight hours of lighting?
MEJINO: Yes, eight hours of lighting. And all you need to do is you just have to replenish the saltwater solution, and then you have another eight hours of operating lamp.
OBAMA: And the lamp costs $20? Roughly?
MEJINO: Around $20....
OBAMA: And it will last you for?
MEJINO: There's a consumable inside that you'll have to change every now and then, so the main explanation, the main science behind the lamp is it's a chemical reaction. You're trying to convert chemical reaction into energy. There's something inside that you have to change, but you only have to change that [after] six months, after using the lamp eight hours a day, every day. And that only costs—the consumable part —around only $3... $2, $3. So you're just going to sustain the lamp. You just have to spend $6 annually.
OBAMA: Which means that you potentially save even within a certain amount of time, by saving enough on kerosene. You've paid for the lamp, and from that point forward, basically, you're getting a modest amount, but important amount of electricity that you can use for a variety of purposes.
MEJINO: Yes.
OBAMA: Aisa is a perfect example of what we're seeing in a lot of countries—young entrepreneurs coming up with leapfrog technologies. In the same way in portions of Asia and Africa, the old landline phones never got set up, people went straight to mobile and obviously they're buying stuff from Alibaba on there all the time.
(Audience laughs.)
But the point is, they didn't have to make some of the massive infrastructure investments. This is part of the reason why the old idea of development and environmental sustainability, I think, is outdated. It does raise the issue, though, of how we can do more to support young entrepreneurs like Aisa, and Jack. You've had the benefit of having been on both sides of the equation—early entrepreneur scratching and climbing and getting things done, and then now, obviously a very successful businessman. How can both government and larger companies be assisting in creating a climate for innovation that encourages young entrepreneurs like Aisa?
MA: Government is simple: Just reduce the tax, or no tax, for these guys.
(Audience laughs.)
OBAMA: There you go!
MA: Well...
OBAMA: You got a lot of cheers from your fellow CEOs.
(Audience laughs.)
MA: Yeah. But I think, I got so excited hearing the story.... Startup for entrepreneurs is like a baby, and I have five babies so far. Experienced father.
OBAMA: Do you love them all equally, or is there?
(Audience laughs.)
MA: Yeah.
OBAMA: Do you have some favorites or you shouldn't say that?
(Audience laughs.)
MA: I do, I do it all.... Alibaba, Alipay, Taobao. These are all kids that I have.
But one thing, my advice—we just had a discussion at the back office—is that nobody can help you. We can only help ourselves. Investors, government, partners: they are all uncles and aunties. You are the father, you are the mother of the kid. Don't give up the kid. Because when we startup, we talk about our kid, our passion, it all sounds crazy. But you are the guy taking care of the kids.
But what we do is we're a platform. Our job is to enable. We sell—on an 11/11 day, we sold $14.5 billion and this year we've got about $500 billion sales in total in our platform. We do not sell anything, we empower other people to sell. So our platform is to empower the small businesses to realize their dreams.
A company like that (gestures at Mijeno)... we have a company that is... they have an app that is helping trucks, because the truck logistic that delivers things from this city to that city, it's full of packs, but when we come back, all empty. So the application is trying to make sure all the truck drivers find the resources. So our technology and platform is trying to empower this company, and last year alone, we saved $1.5 billion fuel because of the thing.
So I think using technology in innovative ways, and other things—big companies... it's difficult for big companies to keep innovation, keep up. The innovation is always outside your company. For us, when we see companies like that, we're excited, we put the money inside, we use the tech knowledge, and we also promote them in our platform is they are environment-friendly.
OBAMA: Nice.... Aisa, what would've been the biggest challenge for you in terms of scaling up. You got a technology, you feel confident it can work?
(To audience) She's won, by the way, a lot of prizes, gotten a lot of attention, so this is not like one of those infomercials... (Audience laughs) ... where you order it and you can't make the thing work... so...
(To Aisa) But what have been the biggest challenges and how could both the public sector and the private sector be more helpful in term of encouraging young entrepreneurs like you?
MIJENO: Based on our experience, I guess what we need here is like a support system, because we have, we have the passion. If you don't mind me telling you the backstory of how we started: The main inspiration of coming up with the application—the lighting application—was when we did a personal immersion up in the mountains of Kalinga. Up there I learned of a story that because of scarcity of public transportation, people have to travel down the mountain and walk six hours just to get kerosene for their lamps, and they do that every other day.
So, we have the passion. So what we need is a support system from both the private sector and the government to, like, mentor us and guide us how we can scale up the product, the project... And yes, we also need a lot of support in terms of funding. That's our main challenge right now. We're at a critical phase; we're trying to mass produce the lamp, so we're just looking for someone to fund to get the project moving.
(Obama points at Ma at the end of Mejino's reply. The audience laughs. Ma points back at Obama, then at Mejino. More laughter and applause.)
OBAMA: I'm just saying.... Serving as a matchmaker here a little bit.
(More laughter.)
But a couple of things.... I know we're running out of time, but I wanna comment on.... I do think there's a role for the government to provide tax incentives for the production of clean energy. What's interesting is, if you look at solar, for example, heavy subsidies on the front end, but because of the trend lines in reducing the cost of per BTU coming out of the last several years, it's exceeding our expectations and the subsidies become less and less necessary.
So early phase, you may need some support, but over time, less support.
Second area that I think the government has an important role to play—and I think you wouldn't disagree on this—is, I think, research and development. Most of your businesses, the people in this audience, you have an R-and-D budget, but oftentimes it's commercializing the technology proven, tweaking it. Where governments can do is hard for companies to do a front-end, basic research, that doesn't necessarily have an immediate pay-off, but will then serve as the laboratory for young people like Aisa to discover—based on that basic research —'I've got a new idea and I can do something.'
That's in fact how the internet came about, in part—a combination of incredible innovation, but also some basic government funding that came at the front-end.
But the thing that I wanna ask you, Jack, sort of in closing, is whether you think other businesses you're interacting with and dealing with, particularly in the APEC countries, feel the same urgency that you do, or do you think you're still an early evangelist on this to persuade others a little bit more?
And the reason I say this is because, I think... China is an interesting example. Like the earlier patterns of England and the United States, when the countries are going rapidly, they're not paying attention to the environment. As it enters into middle-income status, suddenly people start looking at cancer rates, they start looking at the air, the water... and you become more conscious, 'That's a good value that we have to prize and care about,' and I'm wondering if you think your fellow business leaders are seeing that same kind of transition and opportunity in this region.
MA: Yeah. I think, take China for example. I think today because of the air in Beijing, the smogging, it caused tension and the government and all the business changed a lot in the last four years. I just came from Beijing three weeks ago, my throat was painful. We organized what is called a Paradise Foundation. I invited 45 business leaders in China—all joined, all put money inside—and we think there are a lot of things businesses should do.
It's too late to complain whose fault—whether your fault or my fault, let's solve the problem together. It's the combination... Combine the work of the government, private sector, scientists, and sociologists. We have to work together.
The thing is how we can work together efficiently. I believe always you have to keep the heart inside, but out of the business' way, because you have to get things done. That's why scientists can tell us how to do it properly. Business should tell us how to get things done efficiently. And the government should have the good environment and foundation of researching. And also we need the media's guide to tell the people how we do it.
I think this area—Asia-Pacific, especially China—we are taking good actions, but we need to do it in a way that's really workable. I bought a big piece of land... The reason I bought it is not for buying the forest. The reason I bought it is for the experience of how America was able to solve the problem in the last century... Then I want to bring the technology, the know-how, to China, back to this part of the world.
I think this is an opportunity. It's too late to worry. We have to take action, join together. This is what we believe.
OBAMA: Excellent... Excellent... And Aisa, the closing comments. You're about to scale up and I'm confident you'll be successful. But one of the most important things you've said, in my mind, at least, that this starts from the bottom-up. That whether it's in the Philippines or in Tanzania, or anywhere in the world, that people who are trying to improve their lives, that they can't be asked to just stay poor to solve this problem. They need electricity, they want transportation, they want the same things that exist in developed nations.
But what that means is that if we're working at the grassroots level, seeing what folks need, and figuring out in an efficient way how to deliver improved quality of life while being environmentally sustainable, that's an enormous opportunity but it starts at looking at aspirations and hopes of ordinary people. Is that a fair thing to say?
MIJENO: Yes. It's mainly a collaborative effort. You should not just, like, rely on the government. Of course, you should also do your part, both as a citizen of the nation, to help your people. So like what we're doing -- I'm focusing on what I'm good at, of course R-and-D, research and development.
With the help of local incubation program here in the Philippines, we were able to partner with a local manufacturing company who's trying to help us assemble the lamps. We're also in talks, we're getting so many support from organizations and foundations to distribute the lamps across the Philippines. So with all those, it's a collaborative effort. You have to be open to partnering and helping out people, especially in our case, people that do not have access to electricity. Electricity is a basic need, light is a basic need, and we should be addressing that.
And before I close, before I get to my closing remark, I would like to focus on climate change, coming from an academe background. So, I just wanted to emphasize that climate change is real. It's a fact. It's not a myth that scientists created in order to get funding grants.
(Obama, audience laugh.)
It's real. It's happening now. Just to give you a simple analogy of what stage we are in in climate change right now...
Climate change is like cancer. At Stage One, it starts mutating. At Stage Two, you start feeling the symptoms. If you're self-aware, you go to the doctor and get treatment.
If you're not aware, you take it for granted and you go to Stage Three: You start feeling the severe effects of the symptoms until finally, on Stage Four, you're noticing that your health starts declining. You get the best oncologist, pay the best hospital, but it's not working because everything is too late.
Climate change is like that. Right now, I believe we are on Stage Two. Stage Two! So...
(Audience reacts.)
OBAMA: I'm just saying, people...
(Audience laughs.)
OBAMA: You don't wanna get to Stage Four.
(More laughter.)
MEJINO: Yes, we don't want to get to Stage Four.
OBAMA: And we have a huge investment in making sure our children, our grandchildren, our great-grandchildren are able to enjoy prosperity, and that's dependent ultimately on the planet that accommodates us.
I will say that the lamp you talked about, in addition to providing light, you can also charge a cellphone, right?
MEJINO: Yes.
OBAMA: And if people have these lamps, they are more likely to use their cellphones, which means they're more likely to use e-commerce, and more likely to purchase things through Alibaba....
(Audience laughs.)
MA: We'll sell it online.
OBAMA: So I think there's a synergy here. Everybody, please give Jack and Aisa a big round of applause!
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