双语视频 | 2016年美国总统首场辩论，跟着他们学如何撕逼！（附演讲稿）
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2016年，这场被称为“世纪之战”的辩论，不少媒体在开播前就预计可能会有超过一亿人观看，堪比美国政治界的超级碗。
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LESTER HOLT: Good evening from Hofstra University in Hempstead, New York. I'm Lester Holt, anchor of "NBC Nightly News." I want to welcome you to the first presidential debate.
The participants tonight are Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton. This debate is sponsored by the Commission on Presidential Debates, a nonpartisan, nonprofit organization. The commission drafted tonight's format, and the ruleshave been agreed to by the campaigns.
The 90-minute debate is divided into six segments, each 15 minutes long. We'll explore three topic areas tonight: Achieving prosperity; America's direction; and securing America. At the start of each segment, I will ask the same lead-off question to both candidates, and they will each have up to two minutes to respond. From that point until the end of the segment, we'll have an open discussion.
The questions are mine and have not been shared with the commission or the campaigns. The audience here in the room has agreed to remain silent so that we can focus on what the candidates are saying.
I will invite you to applaud, however, at this moment, as we welcome the candidates: Democratic nominee for president of the United States, Hillary Clinton, and Republican nominee for president of the United States, Donald J. Trump.
CLINTON: How are you, Donald?
HOLT: Good luck to you.
Well, I don't expect us to cover all the issues of this campaign tonight, but I remind everyone, there are two more presidential debates scheduled. We are going to focus on many of the issues that voters tell us are most important, andwe're going to press for specifics. I am honored to have this role, but this evening belongs to the candidates and, just as important, to the American people.
Candidates, we look forward to hearing you articulate your policies and your positions, as well as your visions and your values. So, let's begin.
We're calling this opening segment "Achieving Prosperity." And central to that is jobs. There are two economic realities in America today. There's been a record six straight years of job growth, and new census numbers show incomes have increased at a record rate after years of stagnation. However, income inequality remains significant, and nearly half of Americans are living paycheck to paycheck.
Beginning with you, Secretary Clinton, why are you a better choice than your opponent to create the kinds of jobs that will put more money into the pockets of American works?
CLINTON: Well, thank you, Lester, and thanks to Hofstra for hosting us.
The central question in this election is really what kind of country we want to be and what kind of future we'll build together. Today is my granddaughter's second birthday, so I think about this a lot. First, we have to build an economy that works for everyone, not just those at the top. That means we need new jobs, good jobs, with rising incomes.
I want us to invest in you. I want us to invest in your future. That means jobs in infrastructure, in advanced manufacturing, innovation and technology, clean, renewable energy, and small business, because most of the new jobs will come from small business. We also have to make the economy fairer. That starts with raising the national minimum wage and also guarantee, finally, equal pay for women's work.
CLINTON: I also want to see more companies do profit-sharing. If you help create the profits, you should be able to share in them, not just the executives at the top.
And I want us to do more to support people who are struggling to balance family and work. I've heard from so many of you about the difficult choices you face and the stresses that you're under. So let's have paid family leave, earned sick days. Let's be sure we have affordable child care and debt-free college.
How are we going to do it? We're going to do it by having the wealthy pay their fair share and close the corporate loopholes.
Finally, we tonight are on the stage together, Donald Trump and I. Donald, it's good to be with you. We're going to have a debate where we are talking about the important issues facing our country. You have to judge us, who can shoulder the immense, awesome responsibilities of the presidency, who can put into action the plans that will make your life better. I hope that I will be able to earn your vote on November 8th.
HOLT: Secretary Clinton, thank you.
Mr. Trump, the same question to you. It's about putting money -- more money into the pockets of American workers. You have up to two minutes.
TRUMP: Thank you, Lester. Our jobs are fleeing the country. They're going to Mexico. They're going to many other countries. You look at what China is doing to our country in terms of making our product. They're devaluing their currency, and there's nobody in our government to fight them. And we have a very good fight. And we have a winning fight. Because they're using our country as a piggy bank to rebuild China, and many other countries are doing the same thing.
So we're losing our good jobs, so many of them. When you look at what's happening in Mexico, a friend of mine who builds plants said it's the eighth wonder of the world. They're building some of the biggest plants anywhere in the world, some of the most sophisticated, some of the best plants. With the United States, as he said, not so much.
So Ford is leaving. You see that, their small car division leaving. Thousands of jobs leaving Michigan, leaving Ohio. They're all leaving. And we can't allow it to happen anymore. As far as child care is concerned and so many other things, I think Hillary and I agree on that. We probably disagree a little bit as to numbers and amounts and what we're going to do, but perhaps we'll be talking about that later.
But we have to stop our jobs from being stolen from us. We have to stop our companies from leaving the United States and, with it, firing all of their people.All you have to do is take a look at Carrier air conditioning in Indianapolis. They left -- fired 1,400 people. They're going to Mexico. So many hundreds and hundreds of companies are doing this.
TRUMP: We cannot let it happen. Under my plan, I'll be reducing taxes tremendously, from 35 percent to 15 percent for companies, small and big businesses. That's going to be a job creator like we haven't seen since Ronald Reagan. It's going to be a beautiful thing to watch.
Companies will come. They will build. They will expand. New companies will start. And I look very, very much forward to doing it. We have to renegotiate our trade deals, and we have to stop these countries from stealing our companies and our jobs.
HOLT: Secretary Clinton, would you like to respond?
CLINTON: Well, I think that trade is an important issue. Of course, we are 5 percent of the world's population; we have to trade with the other 95 percent. And we need to have smart, fair trade deals.
We also, though, need to have a tax system that rewards work and not just financial transactions. And the kind of plan that Donald has put forth would be trickle-down economics all over again. In fact, it would be the most extreme version, the biggest tax cuts for the top percent of the people in this country than we've ever had.
I call it trumped-up trickle-down, because that's exactly what it would be. That is not how we grow the economy.
We just have a different view about what's best for growing the economy, how we make investments that will actually produce jobs and rising incomes.
I think we come at it from somewhat different perspectives. I understand that. You know, Donald was very fortunate in his life, and that's all to his benefit. He started his business with $14 million, borrowed from his father, and he really believes that the more you help wealthy people, the better off we'll be and that everything will work out from there.
I don't buy that. I have a different experience. My father was a small-businessman. He worked really hard. He printed drapery fabrics on long tables, where he pulled out those fabrics and he went down with a silkscreen and dumped the paint in and took the squeegee and kept going.
And so what I believe is the more we can do for the middle class, the more we can invest in you, your education, your skills, your future, the better we will be off and the better we'll grow. That's the kind of economy I want us to see again.
HOLT: Let me follow up with Mr. Trump, if you can. You've talked about creating 25 million jobs, and you've promised to bring back millions of jobs for Americans. How are you going to bring back the industries that have left this country for cheaper labor overseas? How, specifically, are you going to tell American manufacturers that you have to come back?
TRUMP: Well, for one thing -- and before we start on that -- my father gave me a very small loan in 1975, and I built it into a company that's worth many, many billions of dollars, with some of the greatest assets in the world, and I say that only because that's the kind of thinking that our country needs.
Our country's in deep trouble. We don't know what we're doing when it comes to devaluations and all of these countries all over the world, especially China. They're the best, the best ever at it. What they're doing to us is a very, very sad thing.
So we have to do that. We have to renegotiate our trade deals. And, Lester, they're taking our jobs, they're giving incentives, they're doing things that, frankly, we don't do.
Let me give you the example of Mexico. They have a VAT tax. We're on a different system. When we sell into Mexico, there's a tax. When they sell in -- automatic, 16 percent, approximately. When they sell into us, there's no tax. It's a defective agreement. It's been defective for a long time, many years, butthe politicians haven't done anything about it.
Now, in all fairness to Secretary Clinton -- yes, is that OK? Good. I want you to be very happy. It's very important to me.
But in all fairness to Secretary Clinton, when she started talking about this, it was really very recently. She's been doing this for 30 years. And why hasn't she made the agreements better? The NAFTA agreement is defective. Just because of the tax and many other reasons, but just because of the fact...
HOLT: Let me interrupt just a moment, but...
TRUMP: Secretary Clinton and others, politicians, should have been doing this for years, not right now, because of the fact that we've created a movement. They should have been doing this for years. What's happened to our jobs and our country and our economy generally is -- look, we owe $20 trillion. We cannot do it any longer, Lester. HOLT: Back to the question, though. How do you bring back -- specifically bring back jobs, American manufacturers? How do you make them bring the jobs back?
TRUMP: Well, the first thing you do is don't let the jobs leave. The companies are leaving. I could name, I mean, there are thousands of them. They're leaving, and they're leaving in bigger numbers than ever.
And what you do is you say, fine, you want to go to Mexico or some other country, good luck. We wish you a lot of luck. But if you think you're going to make your air conditioners or your cars or your cookies or whatever you make and bring them into our country without a tax, you're wrong.
And once you say you're going to have to tax them coming in, and our politicians never do this, because they have special interests and the special interests want those companies to leave, because in many cases, they own the companies. So what I'm saying is, we can stop them from leaving. We have to stop them from leaving. And that's a big, big factor.
HOLT: Let me let Secretary Clinton get in here.
CLINTON: Well, let's stop for a second and remember where we were eight years ago. We had the worst financial crisis, the Great Recession, the worst since the 1930s. That was in large part because of tax policies that slashed taxes on the wealthy, failed to invest in the middle class, took their eyes off of Wall Street, and created a perfect storm.
In fact, Donald was one of the people who rooted for the housing crisis. He said, back in 2006, "Gee, I hope it does collapse, because then I can go in and buy some and make some money." Well, it did collapse.
TRUMP: That's called business, by the way.
CLINTON: Nine million people -- nine million people lost their jobs. Five million people lost their homes. And $13 trillion in family wealth was wiped out.
Now, we have come back from that abyss. And it has not been easy. So we're now on the precipice of having a potentially much better economy, but the last thing we need to do is to go back to the policies that failed us in the first place.
Independent experts have looked at what I've proposed and looked at what Donald's proposed, and basically they've said this, that if his tax plan, which would blow up the debt by over $5 trillion and would in some instances disadvantage middle-class families compared to the wealthy, were to go into effect, we would lose 3.5 million jobs and maybe have another recession.
They've looked at my plans and they've said, OK, if we can do this, and I intend to get it done, we will have 10 million more new jobs, because we will be making investments where we can grow the economy. Take clean energy. Some country is going to be the clean- energy superpower of the 21st century. Donald thinks that climate change is a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese. I think it's real.
TRUMP: I did not. I did not. I do not say that.
CLINTON: I think science is real.
TRUMP: I do not say that.
CLINTON: And I think it's important that we grip this and deal with it, both at home and abroad. And here's what we can do. We can deploy a half a billion more solar panels. We can have enough clean energy to power every home. We can build a new modern electric grid. That's a lot of jobs; that's a lot of new economic activity.
So I've tried to be very specific about what we can and should do, and I am determined that we're going to get the economy really moving again, building on the progress we've made over the last eight years, but never going back to what got us in trouble in the first place.
HOLT: Mr. Trump?
TRUMP: She talks about solar panels. We invested in a solar company, our country. That was a disaster. They lost plenty of money on that one.
Now, look, I'm a great believer in all forms of energy, but we're putting a lot of people out of work. Our energy policies are a disaster. Our country is losing so much in terms of energy, in terms of paying off our debt. You can't do what you're looking to do with $20 trillion in debt.
The Obama administration, from the time they've come in, is over 230 years' worth of debt, and he's topped it. He's doubled it in a course of almost eight years, seven-and-a-half years, to be semi- exact.
So I will tell you this. We have to do a much better job at keeping our jobs. And we have to do a much better job at giving companies incentives to build new companies or to expand, because they're not doing it.
And all you have to do is look at Michigan and look at Ohio and look at all of these places where so many of their jobs and their companies are just leaving, they're gone.
And, Hillary, I'd just ask you this. You've been doing this for 30 years. Why are you just thinking about these solutions right now? For 30 years, you've been doing it, and now you're just starting to think of solutions.
CLINTON: Well, actually...
TRUMP: I will bring -- excuse me. I will bring back jobs. You can't bring back jobs.
CLINTON: Well, actually, I have thought about this quite a bit.
TRUMP: Yeah, for 30 years.
CLINTON: And I have -- well, not quite that long. I think my husband did a pretty good job in the 1990s. I think a lot about what worked and how we can make it work again...
TRUMP: Well, he approved NAFTA...
(CROSSTALK)
CLINTON: ... million new jobs, a balanced budget...
TRUMP: He approved NAFTA, which is the single worst trade deal ever approved in this country.
CLINTON: Incomes went up for everybody. Manufacturing jobs went up also in the 1990s, if we're actually going to look at the facts.
When I was in the Senate, I had a number of trade deals that came before me, and I held them all to the same test. Will they create jobs in America? Will they raise incomes in America? And are they good for our national security? Some of them I voted for. The biggest one, a multinational one known as CAFTA, I voted against. And because I hold the same standards as I look at all of these trade deals.
But let's not assume that trade is the only challenge we have in the economy. I think it is a part of it, and I've said what I'm going to do. I'm going to have a special prosecutor. We're going to enforce the trade deals we have, and we're going to hold people accountable.
When I was secretary of state, we actually increased American exports globally 30 percent. We increased them to China 50 percent. So I know how to really work to get new jobs and to get exports that helped to create more new jobs.
HOLT: Very quickly...
TRUMP: But you haven't done it in 30 years or 26 years or any number you want to...
CLINTON: Well, I've been a senator, Donald...
TRUMP: You haven't done it. You haven't done it.
CLINTON: And I have been a secretary of state...
TRUMP: Excuse me.
CLINTON: And I have done a lot...
TRUMP: Your husband signed NAFTA, which was one of the worst things that ever happened to the manufacturing industry.
CLINTON: Well, that's your opinion. That is your opinion.
TRUMP: You go to New England, you go to Ohio, Pennsylvania, you go anywhere you want, Secretary Clinton, and you will see devastation where manufacture is down 30, 40, sometimes 50 percent. NAFTA is the worst trade deal maybe ever signed anywhere, but certainly ever signed in this country.
And now you want to approve Trans-Pacific Partnership. You were totally in favor of it. Then you heard what I was saying, how bad it is, and you said, I can't win that debate. But you know that if you did win, you would approve that, and that will be almost as bad as NAFTA. Nothing will ever top NAFTA.
CLINTON: Well, that is just not accurate. I was against it once it was finally negotiated and the terms were laid out. I wrote about that in...
TRUMP: You called it the gold standard.
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: You called it the gold standard of trade deals. You said it's the finest deal you've ever seen.
CLINTON: No.
TRUMP: And then you heard what I said about it, and all of a sudden you were against it.
CLINTON: Well, Donald, I know you live in your own reality, but that is not the facts. The facts are -- I did say I hoped it would be a good deal, but when it was negotiated...
TRUMP: Not.
CLINTON: ... which I was not responsible for, I concluded it wasn't. I wrote about that in my book...
TRUMP: So is it President Obama's fault?
CLINTON: ... before you even announced.
TRUMP: Is it President Obama's fault?
CLINTON: Look, there are differences...
TRUMP: Secretary, is it President Obama's fault?
CLINTON: There are...
TRUMP: Because he's pushing it.
CLINTON: There are different views about what's good for our country, our economy, and our leadership in the world. And I think it's important to look at what we need to do to get the economy going again. That's why I said new jobs with rising incomes, investments, not in more tax cuts that would add $5 trillion to the debt.
TRUMP: But you have no plan.
CLINTON: But in -- oh, but I do.
TRUMP: Secretary, you have no plan.
CLINTON: In fact, I have written a book about it. It's called "Stronger Together." You can pick it up tomorrow at a bookstore...
TRUMP: That's about all you've...
(CROSSTALK)
HOLT: Folks, we're going to...
CLINTON: ... or at an airport near you.
HOLT: We're going to move to...
CLINTON: But it's because I see this -- we need to have strong growth, fair growth, sustained growth. We also have to look at how we help families balance the responsibilities at home and the responsibilities at business.
So we have a very robust set of plans. And people have looked at both of our plans, have concluded that mine would create 10 million jobs and yours would lose us 3.5 million jobs, and explode the debt which would have a recession.
TRUMP: You are going to approve one of the biggest tax cuts in history. You are going to approve one of the biggest tax increases in history. You are going to drive business out. Your regulations are a disaster, and you're going to increase regulations all over the place.
And by the way, my tax cut is the biggest since Ronald Reagan. I'm very proud of it. It will create tremendous numbers of new jobs. But regulations, you are going to regulate these businesses out of existence.
When I go around -- Lester, I tell you this, I've been all over. And when I go around, despite the tax cut, the thing -- the things that business as in people like the most is the fact that I'm cutting regulation. You have regulations on top of regulations, and new companies cannot form and old companies are going out of business. And you want to increase the regulations and make them even worse.
I'm going to cut regulations. I'm going to cut taxes big league, and you're going to raise taxes big league, end of story.
HOLT: Let me get you to pause right there, because we're going to move into -- we're going to move into the next segment. We're going to talk taxes...
CLINTON: That can't -- that can't be left to stand.
HOLT: Please just take 30 seconds and then we're going to go on.
CLINTON: I kind of assumed that there would be a lot of these charges and claims, and so...
TRUMP: Facts.
CLINTON: So we have taken the home page of my website, HillaryClinton.com, and we've turned it into a fact-checker. So if you want to see in real-time what the facts are, please go and take a look. Because what I have proposed...
TRUMP: And take a look at mine, also, and you'll see.
CLINTON: ... would not add a penny to the debt, and your plans would add $5 trillion to the debt. What I have proposed would cut regulations and streamline them for small businesses. What I have proposed would be paid for by raising taxes on the wealthy, because they have made all the gains in the economy. And I think it's time that the wealthy and corporations paid their fair share to support this country.
HOLT: Well, you just opened the next segment.
TRUMP: Well, could I just finish -- I think I...
(CROSSTALK)
HOLT: I'm going to give you a chance right here...
TRUMP: I think I should -- you go to her website, and you take a look at her website.
HOLT: ... with a new 15-minute segment...
TRUMP: She's going to raise taxes $1.3 trillion.
HOLT: Mr. Trump, I'm going to...
TRUMP: And look at her website. You know what? It's no difference than this. She's telling us how to fight ISIS. Just go to her website. She tells you how to fight ISIS on her website. I don't think General Douglas MacArthur would like that too much.
HOLT: The next segment, we're continuing...
CLINTON: Well, at least I have a plan to fight ISIS.
HOLT: ... achieving prosperity...
TRUMP: No, no, you're telling the enemy everything you want to do.
CLINTON: No, we're not. No, we're not.
TRUMP: See, you're telling the enemy everything you want to do. No wonder you've been fighting -- no wonder you've been fighting ISIS your entire adult life.
CLINTON: That's a -- that's -- go to the -- please, fact checkers, get to work.
HOLT: OK, you are unpacking a lot here. And we're still on the issue of achieving prosperity. And I want to talk about taxes. The fundamental difference between the two of you concerns the wealthy.
Secretary Clinton, you're calling for a tax increase on the wealthiest Americans. I'd like you to further defend that. And, Mr. Trump, you're calling for tax cuts for the wealthy. I'd like you to defend that. And this next two-minute answer goes to you, Mr. Trump.
TRUMP: Well, I'm really calling for major jobs, because the wealthy are going create tremendous jobs. They're going to expand their companies. They're going to do a tremendous job.
I'm getting rid of the carried interest provision. And if you really look, it's not a tax -- it's really not a great thing for the wealthy. It's a great thing for the middle class. It's a great thing for companies to expand.
And when these people are going to put billions and billions of dollars into companies, and when they're going to bring $2.5 trillion back from overseas, where they can't bring the money back, because politicians like Secretary Clinton won't allow them to bring the money back, because the taxes are so onerous, and the bureaucratic red tape, so what -- is so bad.
So what they're doing is they're leaving our country, and they're, believe it or not, leaving because taxes are too high and because some of them have lots of money outside of our country. And instead of bringing it back and putting the money to work, because they can't work out a deal to -- and everybody agrees it should be brought back.
Instead of that, they're leaving our country to get their money, because they can't bring their money back into our country, because of bureaucratic red tape, because they can't get together. Because we have -- we have a president that can't sit them around a table and get them to approve something.
And here's the thing. Republicans and Democrats agree that this should be done, $2.5 trillion. I happen to think it's double that. It's probably $5 trillion that we can't bring into our country, Lester. And with a little leadership, you'd get it in here very quickly, and it could be put to use on the inner cities and lots of other things, and it would be beautiful.
But we have no leadership. And honestly, that starts with Secretary Clinton.
HOLT: All right. You have two minutes of the same question to defend tax increases on the wealthiest Americans, Secretary Clinton.
CLINTON: I have a feeling that by, the end of this evening, I'm going to be blamed for everything that's ever happened.
TRUMP: Why not?
CLINTON: Why not? Yeah, why not?
(LAUGHTER)
You know, just join the debate by saying more crazy things. Now, let me say this, it is absolutely the case...
TRUMP: There's nothing crazy about not letting our companies bring their money back into their country.
HOLT: This is -- this is Secretary Clinton's two minutes, please.
TRUMP: Yes.
CLINTON: Yeah, well, let's start the clock again, Lester. We've looked at your tax proposals. I don't see changes in the corporate tax rates or the kinds of proposals you're referring to that would cause the repatriation, bringing back of money that's stranded overseas. I happen to support that.
TRUMP: Then you didn't read it.
CLINTON: I happen to -- I happen to support that in a way that will actually work to our benefit. But when I look at what you have proposed, you have what is called now the Trump loophole, because it would so advantage you and the business you do. You've proposed an approach that has a...
TRUMP: Who gave it that name? The first I've -- who gave it that name?
(CROSSTALK)
HOLT: Mr. Trump, this is Secretary Clinton's two minutes.
CLINTON: ... $4 billion tax benefit for your family. And when you look at what you are proposing...
TRUMP: How much? How much for my family? CLINTON: ... it is...
TRUMP: Lester, how much?
CLINTON: ... as I said, trumped-up trickle-down. Trickle-down did not work. It got us into the mess we were in, in 2008 and 2009. Slashing taxes on the wealthy hasn't worked.
And a lot of really smart, wealthy people know that. And they are saying, hey, we need to do more to make the contributions we should be making to rebuild the middle class.
CLINTON: I don't think top-down works in America. I think building the middle class, investing in the middle class, making college debt-free so more young people can get their education, helping people refinance their -- their debt from college at a lower rate. Those are the kinds of things that will really boost the economy. Broad-based, inclusive growth is what we need in America, not more advantages for people at the very top.
HOLT: Mr. Trump, we're...
TRUMP: Typical politician. All talk, no action. Sounds good, doesn't work. Never going to happen. Our country is suffering because people like Secretary Clinton have made such bad decisions in terms of our jobs and in terms of what's going on.
Now, look, we have the worst revival of an economy since the Great Depression. And believe me: We're in a bubble right now. And the only thing that looks good is the stock market, but if you raise interest rates even a little bit, that's going to come crashing down.
We are in a big, fat, ugly bubble. And we better be awfully careful. And we have a Fed that's doing political things. This Janet Yellen of the Fed. The Fed is doing political -- by keeping the interest rates at this level. And believe me: The day Obama goes off, and he leaves, and goes out to the golf course for the rest of his life to play golf, when they raise interest rates, you're going to see some very bad things happen, because the Fed is not doing their job. The Fed is being more political than Secretary Clinton.
HOLT: Mr. Trump, we're talking about the burden that Americans have to pay, yet you have not released your tax returns. And the reason nominees have released their returns for decades is so that voters will know if their potential president owes money to -- who he owes it to and any business conflicts. Don't Americans have a right to know if there are any conflicts of interest?
TRUMP: I don't mind releasing -- I'm under a routine audit. And it'll be released. And -- as soon as the audit's finished, it will be released.
But you will learn more about Donald Trump by going down to the federal elections, where I filed a 104-page essentially financial statement of sorts, the forms that they have. It shows income -- in fact, the income -- I just looked today -- the income is filed at $694 million for this past year, $694 million. If you would have told me I was going to make that 15 or 20 years ago, I would have been very surprised.
But that's the kind of thinking that our country needs. When we have a country that's doing so badly, that's being ripped off by every single country in the world, it's the kind of thinking that our country needs, because everybody -- Lester, we have a trade deficit with all of the countries that we do business with, of almost $800 billion a year. You know what that is? That means, who's negotiating these trade deals?
We have people that are political hacks negotiating our trade deals.
HOLT: The IRS says an audit...
TRUMP: Excuse me.
HOLT: ... of your taxes -- you're perfectly free to release your taxes during an audit. And so the question, does the public's right to know outweigh your personal...
TRUMP: Well, I told you, I will release them as soon as the audit. Look, I've been under audit almost for 15 years. I know a lot of wealthy people that have never been audited. I said, do you get audited? I get audited almost every year.
And in a way, I should be complaining. I'm not even complaining. I don't mind it. It's almost become a way of life. I get audited by the IRS. But other people don't.
I will say this. We have a situation in this country that has to be taken care of. I will release my tax returns -- against my lawyer's wishes -- when she releases her 33,000 e-mails that have been deleted. As soon as she releases them, I will release.
I will release my tax returns. And that's against -- my lawyers, they say, "Don't do it." I will tell you this. No -- in fact, watching shows, they're reading the papers. Almost every lawyer says, you don't release your returns until the audit's complete. When the audit's complete, I'll do it. But I would go against them if she releases her e-mails.
HOLT: So it's negotiable?
TRUMP: It's not negotiable, no. Let her release the e-mails. Why did she delete 33,000...
HOLT: Well, I'll let her answer that. But let me just admonish the audience one more time. There was an agreement. We did ask you to be silent, so it would be helpful for us. Secretary Clinton?
CLINTON: Well, I think you've seen another example of bait-and- switch here. For 40 years, everyone running for president has released their tax returns. You can go and see nearly, I think, 39, 40 years of our tax returns, but everyone has done it. We know the IRS has made clear there is no prohibition on releasing it when you're under audit.
So you've got to ask yourself, why won't he release his tax returns? And I think there may be a couple of reasons. First, maybe he's not as rich as he says he is. Second, maybe he's not as charitable as he claims to be.
CLINTON: Third, we don't know all of his business dealings, but we have been told through investigative reporting that he owes about $650 million to Wall Street and foreign banks. Or maybe he doesn't want the American people, all of you watching tonight, to know that he's paid nothing in federal taxes, because the only years that anybody's ever seen were a couple of years when he had to turn them over to state authorities when he was trying to get a casino license, and they showed he didn't pay any federal income tax.
TRUMP: That makes me smart.
CLINTON: So if he's paid zero, that means zero for troops, zero for vets, zero for schools or health. And I think probably he's not all that enthusiastic about having the rest of our country see what the real reasons are, because it must be something really important, even terrible, that he's trying to hide.
And the financial disclosure statements, they don't give you the tax rate. They don't give you all the details that tax returns would. And it just seems to me that this is something that the American people deserve to see. And I have no reason to believe that he's ever going to release his tax returns, because there's something he's hiding.
And we'll guess. We'll keep guessing at what it might be that he's hiding. But I think the question is, were he ever to get near the White House, what would be those conflicts? Who does he owe money to? Well, he owes you the answers to that, and he should provide them.
HOLT: He also -- he also raised the issue of your e-mails. Do you want to respond to that?
CLINTON: I do. You know, I made a mistake using a private e- mail. TRUMP: That's for sure.
CLINTON: And if I had to do it over again, I would, obviously, do it differently. But I'm not going to make any excuses. It was a mistake, and I take responsibility for that.
HOLT: Mr. Trump?
TRUMP: That was more than a mistake. That was done purposely. OK? That was not a mistake. That was done purposely. When you have your staff taking the Fifth Amendment, taking the Fifth so they're not prosecuted, when you have the man that set up the illegal server taking the Fifth, I think it's disgraceful. And believe me, this country thinks it's -- really thinks it's disgraceful, also.
As far as my tax returns, you don't learn that much from tax returns. That I can tell you. You learn a lot from financial disclosure. And you should go down and take a look at that.
The other thing, I'm extremely underleveraged. The report that said $650 -- which, by the way, a lot of friends of mine that know my business say, boy, that's really not a lot of money. It's not a lot of money relative to what I had.
The buildings that were in question, they said in the same report, which was -- actually, it wasn't even a bad story, to be honest with you, but the buildings are worth $3.9 billion. And the $650 isn't even on that. But it's not $650. It's much less than that.
But I could give you a list of banks, I would -- if that would help you, I would give you a list of banks. These are very fine institutions, very fine banks. I could do that very quickly.
I am very underleveraged. I have a great company. I have a tremendous income. And the reason I say that is not in a braggadocios way. It's because it's about time that this country had somebody running it that has an idea about money.
When we have $20 trillion in debt, and our country's a mess, you know, it's one thing to have $20 trillion in debt and our roads are good and our bridges are good and everything's in great shape, our airports. Our airports are like from a third world country.
You land at LaGuardia, you land at Kennedy, you land at LAX, you land at Newark, and you come in from Dubai and Qatar and you see these incredible -- you come in from China, you see these incredible airports, and you land -- we've become a third world country.
So the worst of all things has happened. We owe $20 trillion, and we're a mess. We haven't even started. And we've spent $6 trillion in the Middle East, according to a report that I just saw. Whether it's 6 or 5, but it looks like it's 6, $6 trillion in the Middle East, we could have rebuilt our country twice.
And it's really a shame. And it's politicians like Secretary Clinton that have caused this problem. Our country has tremendous problems. We're a debtor nation. We're a serious debtor nation. And we have a country that needs new roads, new tunnels, new bridges, new airports, new schools, new hospitals. And we don't have the money, because it's been squandered on so many of your ideas.
HOLT: We'll let you respond and we'll move on to the next segment.
CLINTON: And maybe because you haven't paid any federal income tax for a lot of years.
And the other thing I think is important...
TRUMP: It would be squandered, too, believe me.
CLINTON: ... is if your -- if your main claim to be president of the United States is your business, then I think we should talk about that. You know, your campaign manager said that you built a lot of businesses on the backs of little guys.
And, indeed, I have met a lot of the people who were stiffed by you and your businesses, Donald. I've met dishwashers, painters, architects, glass installers, marble installers, drapery installers, like my dad was, who you refused to pay when they finished the work that you asked them to do.
We have an architect in the audience who designed one of your clubhouses at one of your golf courses. It's a beautiful facility. It immediately was put to use. And you wouldn't pay what the man needed to be paid, what he was charging you to do...
TRUMP: Maybe he didn't do a good job and I was unsatisfied with his work...
CLINTON: Well, to...
TRUMP: Which our country should do, too.
CLINTON: Do the thousands of people that you have stiffed over the course of your business not deserve some kind of apology from someone who has taken their labor, taken the goods that they produced, and then refused to pay them?
I can only say that I'm certainly relieved that my late father never did business with you. He provided a good middle-class life for us, but the people he worked for, he expected the bargain to be kept on both sides.
And when we talk about your business, you've taken business bankruptcy six times. There are a lot of great businesspeople that have never taken bankruptcy once. You call yourself the King of Debt. You talk about leverage. You even at one time suggested that you would try to negotiate down the national debt of the United States.
TRUMP: Wrong. Wrong.
CLINTON: Well, sometimes there's not a direct transfer of skills from business to government, but sometimes what happened in business would be really bad for government.
HOLT: Let's let Mr. Trump...
CLINTON: And we need to be very clear about that.
TRUMP: So, yeah, I think -- I do think it's time. Look, it's all words, it's all sound bites. I built an unbelievable company. Some of the greatest assets anywhere in the world, real estate assets anywhere in the world, beyond the United States, in Europe, lots of different places. It's an unbelievable company.
But on occasion, four times, we used certain laws that are there. And when Secretary Clinton talks about people that didn't get paid, first of all, they did get paid a lot, but taken advantage of the laws of the nation.
Now, if you want to change the laws, you've been there a long time, change the laws. But I take advantage of the laws of the nation because I'm running a company. My obligation right now is to do well for myself, my family, my employees, for my companies. And that's what I do.
But what she doesn't say is that tens of thousands of people that are unbelievably happy and that love me. I'll give you an example. We're just opening up on Pennsylvania Avenue right next to the White House, so if I don't get there one way, I'm going to get to Pennsylvania Avenue another.
But we're opening the Old Post Office. Under budget, ahead of schedule, saved tremendous money. I'm a year ahead of schedule. And that's what this country should be doing.
We build roads and they cost two and three and four times what they're supposed to cost. We buy products for our military and they come in at costs that are so far above what they were supposed to be, because we don't have people that know what they're doing.
When we look at the budget, the budget is bad to a large extent because we have people that have no idea as to what to do and how to buy. The Trump International is way under budget and way ahead of schedule. And we should be able to do that for our country.
HOLT: Well, we're well behind schedule, so I want to move to our next segment. We move into our next segment talking about America's direction. And let's start by talking about race.
The share of Americans who say race relations are bad in this country is the highest it's been in decades, much of it amplified by shootings of African-Americans by police, as we've seen recently in Charlotte and Tulsa. Race has been a big issue in this campaign, and one of you is going to have to bridge a very wide and bitter gap.
So how do you heal the divide? Secretary Clinton, you get two minutes on this.
CLINTON: Well, you're right. Race remains a significant challenge in our country. Unfortunately, race still determines too much, often determines where people live, determines what kind of education in their public schools they can get, and, yes, it determines how they're treated in the criminal justice system. We've just seen those two tragic examples in both Tulsa and Charlotte.
And we've got to do several things at the same time. We have to restore trust between communities and the police. We have to work to make sure that our police are using the best training, the best techniques, that they're well prepared to use force only when necessary. Everyone should be respected by the law, and everyone should respect the law.
CLINTON: Right now, that's not the case in a lot of our neighborhoods. So I have, ever since the first day of my campaign, called for criminal justice reform. I've laid out a platform that I think would begin to remedy some of the problems we have in the criminal justice system.
But we also have to recognize, in addition to the challenges that we face with policing, there are so many good, brave police officers who equally want reform. So we have to bring communities together in order to begin working on that as a mutual goal. And we've got to get guns out of the hands of people who should not have them.
The gun epidemic is the leading cause of death of young African- American men, more than the next nine causes put together. So we have to do two things, as I said. We have to restore trust. We have to work with the police. We have to make sure they respect the communities and the communities respect them. And we have to tackle the plague of gun violence, which is a big contributor to a lot of the problems that we're seeing today.
HOLT: All right, Mr. Trump, you have two minutes. How do you heal the divide?
TRUMP: Well, first of all, Secretary Clinton doesn't want to use a couple of words, and that's law and order. And we need law and order. If we don't have it, we're not going to have a country.
And when I look at what's going on in Charlotte, a city I love, a city where I have investments, when I look at what's going on throughout various parts of our country, whether it's -- I mean, I can just keep naming them all day long -- we need law and order in our country.
I just got today the, as you know, the endorsement of the Fraternal Order of Police, we just -- just came in. We have endorsements from, I think, almost every police group, very -- I mean, a large percentage of them in the United States.
We have a situation where we have our inner cities, African- Americans, Hispanics are living in he'll because it's so dangerous. You walk down the street, you get shot.
In Chicago, they've had thousands of shootings, thousands since January 1st.Thousands of shootings. And I'm saying, where is this? Is this a war-torn country? What are we doing? And we have to stop the violence. We have to bring back law and order. In a place like Chicago, where thousands of people have been killed, thousands over the last number of years, in fact, almost 4,000 have been killed since Barack Obama became president, over -- almost 4,000 people in Chicago have been killed. We have to bring back law and order.
Now, whether or not in a place like Chicago you do stop and frisk, which worked very well, Mayor Giuliani is here, worked very well in New York. It brought the crime rate way down. But you take the gun away from criminals that shouldn't be having it.
We have gangs roaming the street. And in many cases, they're illegally here, illegal immigrants. And they have guns. And they shoot people. And we have to be very strong. And we have to be very vigilant.
We have to be -- we have to know what we're doing. Right now, our police, in many cases, are afraid to do anything. We have to protect our inner cities, because African-American communities are being decimated by crime, decimated.
HOLT: Your two -- your two minutes expired, but I do want to follow up. Stop-and-frisk was ruled unconstitutional in New York, because it largely singled out black and Hispanic young men.
TRUMP: No, you're wrong. It went before a judge, who was a very against-police judge. It was taken away from her. And our mayor, our new mayor, refused to go forward with the case. They would have won an appeal. If you look at it, throughout the country, there are many places where it's allowed.
HOLT: The argument is that it's a form of racial profiling.
TRUMP: No, the argument is that we have to take the guns away from these people that have them and they are bad people that shouldn't have them.
These are felons. These are people that are bad people that shouldn't be -- when you have 3,000 shootings in Chicago from January 1st, when you have 4,000 people killed in Chicago by guns, from the beginning of the presidency of Barack Obama, his hometown, you have to have stop-and-frisk.
You need more police. You need a better community, you know, relation. You don't have good community relations in Chicago. It's terrible. I have property there. It's terrible what's going on in Chicago.
But when you look -- and Chicago's not the only -- you go to Ferguson, you go to so many different places. You need better relationships. I agree with Secretary Clinton on this.
TRUMP: You need better relationships between the communities and the police, because in some cases, it's not good.
But you look at Dallas, where the relationships were really studied, the relationships were really a beautiful thing, and then five police officers were killed one night very violently. So there's some bad things going on. Some really bad things.
HOLT: Secretary Clinton...
TRUMP: But we need -- Lester, we need law and order. And we need law and order in the inner cities, because the people that are most affected by what's happening are African-American and Hispanic people. And it's very unfair to them what our politicians are allowing to happen.
HOLT: Secretary Clinton?
CLINTON: Well, I've heard -- I've heard Donald say this at his rallies, and it's really unfortunate that he paints such a dire negative picture of black communities in our country.
TRUMP: Ugh.
CLINTON: You know, the vibrancy of the black church, the black businesses that employ so many people, the opportunities that so many families are working to provide for their kids. There's a lot that we should be proud of and we should be supporting and lifting up.
But we do always have to make sure we keep people safe. There are the right ways of doing it, and then there are ways that are ineffective. Stop-and-frisk was found to be unconstitutional and, in part, because it was ineffective. It did not do what it needed to do.
Now, I believe in community policing. And, in fact, violent crime is one-half of what it was in 1991. Property crime is down 40 percent. We just don't want to see it creep back up. We've had 25 years of very good cooperation.
But there were some problems, some unintended consequences. Too many young African-American and Latino men ended up in jail for nonviolent offenses. And it's just a fact that if you're a young African-American man and you do the same thing as a young white man, you are more likely to be arrested, charged, convicted, and incarcerated. So we've got to address the systemic racism in our criminal justice system. We cannot just say law and order. We have to say -- we have to come forward with a plan that is going to divert people from the criminal justice system, deal with mandatory minimum sentences, which have put too many people away for too long for doing too little.
We need to have more second chance programs. I'm glad that we're ending private prisons in the federal system; I want to see them ended in the state system. You shouldn't have a profit motivation to fill prison cells with young Americans. So there are some positive ways we can work on this.
And I believe strongly that commonsense gun safety measures would assist us. Right now -- and this is something Donald has supported, along with the gun lobby -- right now, we've got too many military- style weapons on the streets. In a lot of places, our police are outgunned. We need comprehensive background checks, and we need to keep guns out of the hands of those who will do harm.
And we finally need to pass a prohibition on anyone who's on the terrorist watch list from being able to buy a gun in our country. If you're too dangerous to fly, you are too dangerous to buy a gun. So there are things we can do, and we ought to do it in a bipartisan way.
HOLT: Secretary Clinton, last week, you said we've got to do everything possible to improve policing, to go right at implicit bias. Do you believe that police are implicitly biased against black people?
CLINTON: Lester, I think implicit bias is a problem for everyone, not just police. I think, unfortunately, too many of us in our great country jump to conclusions about each other. And therefore, I think we need all of us to be asking hard questions about, you know, why am I feeling this way?
But when it comes to policing, since it can have literally fatal consequences, I have said, in my first budget, we would put money into that budget to help us deal with implicit bias by retraining a lot of our police officers.
I've met with a group of very distinguished, experienced police chiefs a few weeks ago. They admit it's an issue. They've got a lot of concerns. Mental health is one of the biggest concerns, because now police are having to handle a lot of really difficult mental health problems on the street.
CLINTON: They want support, they want more training, they want more assistance. And I think the federal government could be in a position where we would offer and provide that.
HOLT: Mr. Trump...
TRUMP: I'd like to respond to that.
HOLT: Please.
TRUMP: First of all, I agree, and a lot of people even within my own party want to give certain rights to people on watch lists and no- fly lists. I agree with you.When a person is on a watch list or a no-fly list, and I have the endorsement of the NRA, which I'm very proud of. These are very, very good people, and they're protecting the Second Amendment.
But I think we have to look very strongly at no-fly lists and watch lists. And when people are on there, even if they shouldn't be on there, we'll help them, we'll help them legally, we'll help them get off. But I tend to agree with that quite strongly.
I do want to bring up the fact that you were the one that brought up the words super-predator about young black youth. And that's a term that I think was a -- it's -- it's been horribly met, as you know. I think you've apologized for it. But I think it was a terrible thing to say.
And when it comes to stop-and-frisk, you know, you're talking about takes guns away. Well, I'm talking about taking guns away from gangs and people that use them. And I don't think -- I really don't think you disagree with me on this, if you want to know the truth.
I think maybe there's a political reason why you can't say it, but I really don't believe -- in New York City, stop-and-frisk, we had 2,200 murders, and stop-and-frisk brought it down to 500 murders. Five hundred murders is a lot of murders. It's hard to believe, 500 is like supposed to be good?
But we went from 2,200 to 500. And it was continued on by Mayor Bloomberg. And it was terminated by current mayor. But stop-and- frisk had a tremendous impact on the safety of New York City. Tremendous beyond belief. So when you say it has no impact, it really did. It had a very, very big impact.
CLINTON: Well, it's also fair to say, if we're going to talk about mayors, that under the current mayor, crime has continued to drop, including murders. So there is...
TRUMP: No, you're wrong. You're wrong.
CLINTON: No, I'm not.
TRUMP: Murders are up. All right. You check it.
CLINTON: New York -- New York has done an excellent job. And I give credit -- I give credit across the board going back two mayors, two police chiefs, because it has worked. And other communities need to come together to do what will work, as well.
Look, one murder is too many. But it is important that we learn about what has been effective. And not go to things that sound good that really did not have the kind of impact that we would want. Who disagrees with keeping neighborhoods safe?
But let's also add, no one should disagree about respecting the rights of young men who live in those neighborhoods. And so we need to do a better job of working, again, with the communities, faith communities, business communities, as well as the police to try to deal with this problem.
HOLT: This conversation is about race. And so, Mr. Trump, I have to ask you for five...
TRUMP: I'd like to just respond, if I might.
HOLT: Please -- 20 seconds.
TRUMP: I'd just like to respond.
HOLT: Please respond, then I've got a quick follow-up for you.
TRUMP: I will. Look, the African-American community has been let down by our politicians. They talk good around election time, like right now, and after the election, they said, see ya later, I'll see you in four years.
The African-American community -- because -- look, the community within the inner cities has been so badly treated. They've been abused and used in order to get votes by Democrat politicians, because that's what it is. They've controlled these communities for up to 100 years.
HOLT: Mr. Trump, let me...
(CROSSTALK)
CLINTON: Well, I -- I do think...
TRUMP: And I will tell you, you look at the inner cities -- and I just left Detroit, and I just left Philadelphia, and I just -- you know, you've seen me, I've been all over the place. You decided to stay home, and that's OK. But I will tell you, I've been all over. And I've met some of the greatest people I'll ever meet within these communities. And they are very, very upset with what their politicians have told them and what their politicians have done.
HOLT: Mr. Trump, I...
CLINTON: I think -- I think -- I think Donald just criticized me for preparing for this debate. And, yes, I did. And you know what else I prepared for? I prepared to be president. And I think that's a good thing.
HOLT: Mr. Trump, for five years, you perpetuated a false claim that the nation's first black president was not a natural-born citizen. You questioned his legitimacy. In the last couple of weeks, you acknowledged what most Americans have accepted for years: The president was born in the United States. Can you tell us what took you so long?
TRUMP: I'll tell you very -- well, just very simple to say. Sidney Blumenthal works for the campaign and close -- very close friend of Secretary Clinton. And her campaign manager, Patti Doyle, went to -- during the campaign, her campaign against President Obama, fought very hard. And you can go look it up, and you can check it out.
TRUMP: And if you look at CNN this past week, Patti Solis Doyle was on Wolf Blitzer saying that this happened. Blumenthal sent McClatchy, highly respected reporter at McClatchy, to Kenya to find out about it. They were pressing it very hard. She failed to get the birth certificate.
When I got involved, I didn't fail. I got him to give the birth certificate. So I'm satisfied with it. And I'll tell you why I'm satisfied with it.
HOLT: That was...
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Because I want to get on to defeating ISIS, because I want to get on to creating jobs, because I want to get on to having a strong border, because I want to get on to things that are very important to me and that are very important to the country.
HOLT: I will let you respond. It's important. But I just want to get the answer here. The birth certificate was produced in 2011. You've continued to tell the story and question the president's legitimacy in 2012, '13, '14, '15...
TRUMP: Yeah.
HOLT: .... as recently as January. So the question is, what changed your mind?
TRUMP: Well, nobody was pressing it, nobody was caring much about it. I figured you'd ask the question tonight, of course. But nobody was caring much about it. But I was the one that got him to produce the birth certificate. And I think I did a good job.
Secretary Clinton also fought it. I mean, you know -- now, everybody in mainstream is going to say, oh, that's not true. Look, it's true. Sidney Blumenthal sent a reporter -- you just have to take a look at CNN, the last week, the interview with your former campaign manager. And she was involved. But just like she can't bring back jobs, she can't produce.
HOLT: I'm sorry. I'm just going to follow up -- and I will let you respond to that, because there's a lot there. But we're talking about racial healing in this segment. What do you say to Americans, people of color who...
(CROSSTALK)
TRUMP: Well, it was very -- I say nothing. I say nothing, because I was able to get him to produce it. He should have produced it a long time before. I say nothing.
But let me just tell you. When you talk about healing, I think that I've developed very, very good relationships over the last little while with the African-American community. I think you can see that.
And I feel that they really wanted me to come to that conclusion. And I think I did a great job and a great service not only for the country, but even for the president, in getting him to produce his birth certificate.
HOLT: Secretary Clinton?
CLINTON: Well, just listen to what you heard.
(LAUGHTER)
And clearly, as Donald just admitted, he knew he was going to stand on this debate stage, and Lester Holt was going to be asking us questions, so he tried to put the whole racist birther lie to bed.
But it can't be dismissed that easily. He has really started his political activity based on this racist lie that our first black president was not an American citizen. There was absolutely no evidence for it, but he persisted, he persisted year after year, because some of his supporters, people that he was trying to bring into his fold, apparently believed it or wanted to believe it.
But, remember, Donald started his career back in 1973 being sued by the Justice Department for racial discrimination because he would not rent apartments in one of his developments to African-Americans, and he made sure that the people who worked for him understood that was the policy. He actually was sued twice by the Justice Department.
So he has a long record of engaging in racist behavior. And the birther lie was a very hurtful one. You know, Barack Obama is a man of great dignity. And I could tell how much it bothered him and annoyed him that this was being touted and used against him.
But I like to remember what Michelle Obama said in her amazing speech at our Democratic National Convention: When they go low, we go high. And Barack Obama went high, despite Donald Trump's best efforts to bring him down.
HOLT: Mr. Trump, you can respond and we're going to move on to the next segment.
TRUMP: I would love to respond. First of all, I got to watch in preparing for this some of your debates against Barack Obama. You treated him with terrible disrespect. And I watched the way you talk now about how lovely everything is and how wonderful you are. It doesn't work that way. You were after him, you were trying to -- you even sent out or your campaign sent out pictures of him in a certain garb, very famous pictures. I don't think you can deny that.
But just last week, your campaign manager said it was true. So when you tried to act holier than thou, it really doesn't work. It really doesn't.
Now, as far as the lawsuit, yes, when I was very young, I went into my father's company, had a real estate company in Brooklyn and Queens, and we, along with many, many other companies throughout the country -- it was a federal lawsuit -- were sued. We settled the suit with zero -- with no admission of guilt. It was very easy to do.
TRUMP: I notice you bring that up a lot. And, you know, I also notice the very nasty commercials that you do on me in so many different ways, which I don't do on you. Maybe I'm trying to save the money.
But, frankly, I look -- I look at that, and I say, isn't that amazing? Because I settled that lawsuit with no admission of guilt, but that was a lawsuit brought against many real estate firms, and it's just one of those things.
I'll go one step further. In Palm Beach, Florida, tough community, a brilliant community, a wealthy community, probably the wealthiest community there is in the world, I opened a club, and really got great credit for it. No discrimination against African- Americans, against Muslims, against anybody. And it's a tremendously successful club. And I'm so glad I did it. And I have been given great credit for what I did. And I'm very, very proud of it. And that's the way I feel. That is the true way I feel.
HOLT: Our next segment is called "Securing America." We want to start with a 21st century war happening every day in this country. Our institutions are under cyber attack, and our secrets are being stolen. So my question is, who's behind it? And how do we fight it?
Secretary Clinton, this answer goes to you.
CLINTON: Well, I think cyber security, cyber warfare will be one of the biggest challenges facing the next president, because clearly we're facing at this point two different kinds of adversaries. There are the independent hacking groups that do it mostly for commercial reasons to try to steal information that they can use to make money.
But increasingly, we are seeing cyber attacks coming from states, organs of states. The most recent and troubling of these has been Russia. There's no doubt now that Russia has used cyber attacks against all kinds of organizations in our country, and I am deeply concerned about this. I know Donald's very praiseworthy of Vladimir Putin, but Putin is playing a really...
(CROSSTALK)
CLINTON: ... tough, long game here. And one of the things he's done is to let loose cyber attackers to hack into government files, to hack into personal files, hack into the Democratic National Committee. And we recently have learned that, you know, that this is one of their preferred methods of trying to wreak havoc and collect information. We need to make it very clear -- whether it's Russia, China, Iran or anybody else -- the United States has much greater capacity. And we are not going to sit idly by and permit state actors to go after our information, our private-sector information or our public-sector information.
And we're going to have to make it clear that we don't want to use the kinds of tools that we have. We don't want to engage in a different kind of warfare. But we will defend the citizens of this country.
And the Russians need to understand that. I think they've been treating it as almost a probing, how far would we go, how much would we do. And that's why I was so -- I was so shocked when Donald publicly invited Putin to hack into Americans. That is just unacceptable. It's one of the reasons why 50 national security officials who served in Republican information -- in administrations...
HOLT: Your two minutes have expired.
CLINTON: ... have said that Donald is unfit to be the commander- in-chief. It's comments like that that really worry people who understand the threats that we face.
HOLT: Mr. Trump, you have two minutes and the same question. Who's behind it? And how do we fight it?
TRUMP: I do want to say that I was just endorsed -- and more are coming next week -- it will be over 200 admirals, many of them here -- admirals and generals endorsed me to lead this country. That just happened, and many more are coming. And I'm very proud of it.
In addition, I was just endorsed by ICE. They've never endorsed anybody before on immigration. I was just endorsed by ICE. I was just recently endorsed -- 16,500 Border Patrol agents.
So when Secretary Clinton talks about this, I mean, I'll take the admirals and I'll take the generals any day over the political hacks that I see that have led our country so brilliantly over the last 10 years with their knowledge. OK? Because look at the mess that we're in. Look at the mess that we're in.
As far as the cyber, I agree to parts of what Secretary Clinton said. We should be better than anybody else, and perhaps we're not. I don't think anybody knows it was Russia that broke into the DNC. She's saying Russia, Russia, Russia, but I don't -- maybe it was. I mean, it could be Russia, but it could also be China. It could also be lots of other people. It also could be somebody sitting on their bed that weighs 400 pounds, OK?
TRUMP: You don't know who broke in to DNC.
But what did we learn with DNC? We learned that Bernie Sanders was taken advantage of by your people, by Debbie Wasserman Schultz. Look what happened to her. But Bernie Sanders was taken advantage of. That's what we learned.
Now, whether that was Russia, whether that was China, whether it was another country, we don't know, because the truth is, under President Obama we've lost control of things that we used to have control over.
We came in with the Internet, we came up with the Internet, and I think Secretary Clinton and myself would agree very much, when you look at what ISIS is doing with the Internet, they're beating us at our own game. ISIS.
So we have to get very, very tough on cyber and cyber warfare. It is -- it is a huge problem. I have a son. He's 10 years old. He has computers. He is so good with these computers, it's unbelievable. The security aspect of cyber is very, very tough. And maybe it's hardly doable.
But I will say, we are not doing the job we should be doing. But that's true throughout our whole governmental society. We have so many things that we have to do better, Lester, and certainly cyber is one of them.
HOLT: Secretary Clinton?
CLINTON: Well, I think there are a number of issues that we should be addressing. I have put forth a plan to defeat ISIS. It does involve going after them online. I think we need to do much more with our tech companies to prevent ISIS and their operatives from being able to use the Internet to radicalize, even direct people in our country and Europe and elsewhere.
But we also have to intensify our air strikes against ISIS and eventually support our Arab and Kurdish partners to be able to actually take out ISIS in Raqqa, end their claim of being a Caliphate.
We're making progress. Our military is assisting in Iraq. And we're hoping that within the year we'll be able to push ISIS out of Iraq and then, you know, really squeeze them in Syria.
But we have to be cognizant of the fact that they've had foreign fighters coming to volunteer for them, foreign money, foreign weapons, so we have to make this the top priority.
And I would also do everything possible to take out their leadership. I was involved in a number of efforts to take out Al Qaida leadership when I was secretary of state, including, of course, taking out bin Laden. And I think we need to go after Baghdadi, as well, make that one of our organizing principles. Because we've got to defeat ISIS, and we've got to do everything we can to disrupt their propaganda efforts online.
HOLT: You mention ISIS, and we think of ISIS certainly as over there, but there are American citizens who have been inspired to commit acts of terror on American soil, the latest incident, of course, the bombings we just saw in New York and New Jersey, the knife attack at a mall in Minnesota, in the last year, deadly attacks in San Bernardino and Orlando. I'll ask this to both of you. Tell us specifically how you would prevent homegrown attacks by American citizens, Mr. Trump?
TRUMP: Well, first I have to say one thing, very important. Secretary Clinton is talking about taking out ISIS. "We will take out ISIS." Well, President Obama and Secretary Clinton created a vacuum the way they got out of Iraq, because they got out -- what, they shouldn't have been in, but once they got in, the way they got out was a disaster. And ISIS was formed.
So she talks about taking them out. She's been doing it a long time. She's been trying to take them out for a long time. But they wouldn't have even been formed if they left some troops behind, like 10,000 or maybe something more than that. And then you wouldn't have had them.
Or, as I've been saying for a long time, and I think you'll agree, because I said it to you once, had we taken the oil -- and we should have taken the oil -- ISIS would not have been able to form either, because the oil was their primary source of income. And now they have the oil all over the place, including the oil -- a lot of the oil in Libya, which was another one of her disasters.
HOLT: Secretary Clinton?
CLINTON: Well, I hope the fact-checkers are turning up the volume and really working hard. Donald supported the invasion of Iraq.
TRUMP: Wrong.
CLINTON: That is absolutely proved over and over again.
TRUMP: Wrong. Wrong.
CLINTON: He actually advocated for the actions we took in Libya and urged that Gadhafi be taken out, after actually doing some business with him one time.
CLINTON: But the larger point -- and he says this constantly -- is George W. Bush made the agreement about when American troops would leave Iraq, not Barack Obama.
And the only way that American troops could have stayed in Iraq is to get an agreement from the then-Iraqi government that would have protected our troops, and the Iraqi government would not give that.
But let's talk about the question you asked, Lester. The question you asked is, what do we do here in the United States? That's the most important part of this. How do we prevent attacks? How do we protect our people?
And I think we've got to have an intelligence surge, where we are looking for every scrap of information. I was so proud of law enforcement in New York, in Minnesota, in New Jersey. You know, they responded so quickly, so professionally to the attacks that occurred by Rahami. And they brought him down. And we may find out more information because he is still alive, which may prove to be an intelligence benefit.
So we've got to do everything we can to vacuum up intelligence from Europe, from the Middle East. That means we've got to work more closely with our allies, and that's something that Donald has been very dismissive of.
We're working with NATO, the longest military alliance in the history of the world, to really turn our attention to terrorism. We're working with our friends in the Middle East, many of which, as you know, are Muslim majority nations. Donald has consistently insulted Muslims abroad, Muslims at home, when we need to be cooperating with Muslim nations and with the American Muslim community.
They're on the front lines. They can provide information to us that we might not get anywhere else. They need to have close working cooperation with law enforcement in these communities, not be alienated and pushed away as some of Donald's rhetoric, unfortunately, has led to.
HOLT: Mr. Trump...
TRUMP: Well, I have to respond.
HOLT: Please respond.
TRUMP: The secretary said very strongly about working with -- we've been working with them for many years, and we have the greatest mess anyone's ever seen. You look at the Middle East, it's a total mess. Under your direction, to a large extent.
But you look at the Middle East, you started the Iran deal, that's another beauty where you have a country that was ready to fall, I mean, they were doing so badly. They were choking on the sanctions. And now they're going to be actually probably a major power at some point pretty soon, the way they're going.
But when you look at NATO, I was asked on a major show, what do you think of NATO? And you have to understand, I'm a businessperson. I did really well. But I have common sense. And I said, well, I'll tell you. I haven't given lots of thought to NATO. But two things.
Number one, the 28 countries of NATO, many of them aren't paying their fair share. Number two -- and that bothers me, because we should be asking -- we're defending them, and they should at least be paying us what they're supposed to be paying by treaty and contract.
And, number two, I said, and very strongly, NATO could be obsolete, because -- and I was very strong on this, and it was actually covered very accurately in the New York Times, which is unusual for the New York Times, to be honest -- but I said, they do not focus on terror. And I was very strong. And I said it numerous times.
And about four months ago, I read on the front page of the Wall Street Journal that NATO is opening up a major terror division. And I think that's great. And I think we should get -- because we pay approximately 73 percent of the cost of NATO. It's a lot of money to protect other people. But I'm all for NATO. But I said they have to focus on terror, also.
And they're going to do that. And that was -- believe me -- I'm sure I'm not going to get credit for it -- but that was largely because of what I was saying and my criticism of NATO.
I think we have to get NATO to go into the Middle East with us, in addition to surrounding nations, and we have to knock the hell out of ISIS, and we have to do it fast, when ISIS formed in this vacuum created by Barack Obama and Secretary Clinton. And believe me, you were the ones that took out the troops. Not only that, you named the day. They couldn't believe it. They sat back probably and said, I can't believe it. They said...
CLINTON: Lester, we've covered...
TRUMP: No, wait a minute.
CLINTON: We've covered this ground.
TRUMP: When they formed, when they formed, this is something that never should have happened. It should have never happened. Now, you're talking about taking out ISIS. But you were there, and you were secretary of state when it was a little infant. Now it's in over 30 countries. And you're going to stop them? I don't think so.
HOLT: Mr. Trump, a lot of these are judgment questions. You had supported the war in Iraq before the invasion. What makes your...
TRUMP: I did not support the war in Iraq.
HOLT: In 2002...
TRUMP: That is a mainstream media nonsense put out by her, because she -- frankly, I think the best person in her campaign is mainstream media.
HOLT: My question is, since you supported it...
TRUMP: Just -- would you like to hear...
HOLT: ... why is your -- why is your judgment...
TRUMP: Wait a minute. I was against the war in Iraq. Just so you put it out.
HOLT: The record shows otherwise, but why -- why was...
TRUMP: The record does not show that.
HOLT: Why was -- is your judgment any...
TRUMP: The record shows that I'm right. When I did an interview with Howard Stern, very lightly, first time anyone's asked me that, I said, very lightly, I don't know, maybe, who knows? Essentially. I then did an interview with Neil Cavuto. We talked about the economy is more important. I then spoke to Sean Hannity, which everybody refuses to call Sean Hannity. I had numerous conversations with Sean Hannity at Fox. And Sean Hannity said -- and he called me the other day -- and I spoke to him about it -- he said you were totally against the war, because he was for the war.
HOLT: Why is your judgment better than...
TRUMP: And when he -- excuse me. And that was before the war started. Sean Hannity said very strongly to me and other people -- he's willing to say it, but nobody wants to call him. I was against the war. He said, you used to have fights with me, because Sean was in favor of the war.
And I understand that side, also, not very much, because we should have never been there. But nobody called Sean Hannity. And then they did an article in a major magazine, shortly after the war started. I think in '04. But they did an article which had me totally against the war in Iraq.
And one of your compatriots said, you know, whether it was before or right after, Trump was definitely -- because if you read this article, there's no doubt. But if somebody -- and I'll ask the press -- if somebody would call up Sean Hannity, this was before the war started. He and I used to have arguments about the war. I said, it's a terrible and a stupid thing. It's going to destabilize the Middle East. And that's exactly what it's done. It's been a disaster.
HOLT: My reference was to what you had said in 2002, and my question was...
TRUMP: No, no. You didn't hear what I said.
HOLT: Why is your judgment -- why is your judgment any different than Mrs. Clinton's judgment?
TRUMP: Well, I have much better judgment than she does. There's no question about that. I also have a much better temperament than she has, you know?
(LAUGHTER)
I have a much better -- she spent -- let me tell you -- she spent hundreds of millions of dollars on an advertising -- you know, they get Madison Avenue into a room, they put names -- oh, temperament, let's go after -- I think my strongest asset, maybe by far, is my temperament. I have a winning temperament. I know how to win. She does not have a...
HOLT: Secretary Clinton?
TRUMP: Wait. The AFL-CIO the other day, behind the blue screen, I don't know who you were talking to, Secretary Clinton, but you were totally out of control. I said, there's a person with a temperament that's got a problem.
HOLT: Secretary Clinton?
CLINTON: Whew, OK.
(LAUGHTER)
Let's talk about two important issues that were briefly mentioned by Donald, first, NATO. You know, NATO as a military alliance has something called Article 5, and basically it says this: An attack on one is an attack on all. And you know the only time it's ever been invoked? After 9/11, when the 28 nations of NATO said that they would go to Afghanistan with us to fight terrorism, something that they still are doing by our side.
With respect to Iran, when I became secretary of state, Iran was weeks away from having enough nuclear material to form a bomb. They had mastered the nuclear fuel cycle under the Bush administration. They had built covert facilities. They had stocked them with centrifuges that were whirling away.
And we had sanctioned them. I voted for every sanction against Iran when I was in the Senate, but it wasn't enough. So I spent a year-and-a-half putting together a coalition that included Russia and China to impose the toughest sanctions on Iran.
And we did drive them to the negotiating table. And my successor, John Kerry, and President Obama got a deal that put a lid on Iran's nuclear program without firing a single shot. That's diplomacy. That's coalition-building. That'sworking with other nations.
The other day, I saw Donald saying that there were some Iranian sailors on a ship in the waters off of Iran, and they were taunting American sailors who were on a nearby ship. He said, you know, if they taunted our sailors, I'd blow them out of the water and start another war. That's not good judgment.
TRUMP: That would not start a war.
CLINTON: That is not the right temperament to be commander-in- chief, to be taunted. And the worst part...
TRUMP: No, they were taunting us.
CLINTON: ... of what we heard Donald say has been about nuclear weapons. He has said repeatedly that he didn't care if other nations got nuclear weapons, Japan, South Korea, even Saudi Arabia. It has been the policy of the United States, Democrats and Republicans, to do everything we could to reduce the proliferation of nuclear weapons. He even said, well, you know, if there were nuclear war in East Asia, well, you know, that's fine...
TRUMP: Wrong.
CLINTON: ... have a good time, folks.
TRUMP: It's lies.
CLINTON: And, in fact, his cavalier attitude about nuclear weapons is so deeply troubling. That is the number-one threat we face in the world. And it becomes particularly threatening if terrorists ever get their hands on any nuclear material. So a man who can be provoked by a tweet should not have his fingers anywhere near the nuclear codes, as far as I think anyone with any sense about this should be concerned.
TRUMP: That line's getting a little bit old, I must say. I would like to...
CLINTON: It's a good one, though. It well describes the problem.
(LAUGHTER)
TRUMP: It's not an accurate one at all. It's not an accurate one. So I just want to give a lot of things -- and just to respond. I agree with her on one thing. The single greatest problem the world has is nuclear armament, nuclear weapons, not global warming, like you think and your -- your president thinks.
Nuclear is the single greatest threat. Just to go down the list, we defend Japan, we defend Germany, we defend South Korea, we defend Saudi Arabia, we defend countries. They do not pay us. But they should be paying us, because we are providing tremendous service and we're losing a fortune. That's why we're losing -- we're losing -- we lose on everything. I say, who makes these -- we lose on everything. All I said, that it's very possible that if they don't pay a fair share, because this isn't 40 years ago where we could do what we're doing. We can't defend Japan, a behemoth, selling us cars by the million...
HOLT: We need to move on.
TRUMP: Well, wait, but it's very important. All I said was, they may have to defend themselves or they have to help us out. We're a country that owes $20 trillion. They have to help us out.
HOLT: Our last...
TRUMP: As far as the nuclear is concerned, I agree. It is the single greatest threat that this country has.
HOLT: Which leads to my next question, as we enter our last segment here (inaudible) the subject of securing America. On nuclear weapons, President Obama reportedly considered changing the nation's longstanding policy on first use. Do you support the current policy? Mr. Trump, you have two minutes on that.
TRUMP: Well, I have to say that, you know, for what Secretary Clinton was saying about nuclear with Russia, she's very cavalier in the way she talks about various countries. But Russia has been expanding their -- they have a much newer capability than we do. We have not been updating from the new standpoint.
I looked the other night. I was seeing B-52s, they're old enough that your father, your grandfather could be flying them. We are not -- we are not keeping up with other countries. I would like everybody to end it, just get rid of it. But I would certainly not do first strike.
I think that once the nuclear alternative happens, it's over. At the same time, we have to be prepared. I can't take anything off the table. Because you look at some of these countries, you look at North Korea, we're doing nothing there. China should solve that problem for us. China should go into North Korea.China is totally powerful as it relates to North Korea.
And by the way, another one powerful is the worst deal I think I've ever seen negotiated that you started is the Iran deal. Iran is one of their biggest trading partners. Iran has power over North Korea.
And when they made that horrible deal with Iran, they should have included the fact that they do something with respect to North Korea. And they should have done something with respect to Yemen and all these other places.
And when asked to Secretary Kerry, why didn't you do that? Why didn't you add other things into the deal? One of the great giveaways of all time, of all time, including $400 million in cash. Nobody's ever seen that before. That turned out to be wrong. It was actually $1.7 billion in cash, obviously, I guess for the hostages. It certainly looks that way.
So you say to yourself, why didn't they make the right deal? This is one of the worst deals ever made by any country in history. The deal with Iran will lead to nuclear problems. All they have to do is sit back 10 years, and they don't have to do much.
HOLT: Your two minutes is expired.
TRUMP: And they're going to end up getting nuclear. I met with Bibi Netanyahu the other day. Believe me, he's not a happy camper.
HOLT: All right. Mrs. Clinton, Secretary Clinton, you have two minutes.
CLINTON: Well, let me -- let me start by saying, words matter. Words matter when you run for president. And they really matter when you are president. And I want to reassure our allies in Japan and South Korea and elsewhere that we have mutual defense treaties and we will honor them.
It is essential that America's word be good. And so I know that this campaign has caused some questioning and worries on the part of many leaders across the globe. I've talked with a number of them. But I want to -- on behalf of myself, and I think on behalf of a majority of the American people, say that, you know, our word is good.
It's also important that we look at the entire global situation. There's no doubt that we have other problems with Iran. But personally, I'd rather deal with the other problems having put that lid on their nuclear program than still to be facing that.
And Donald never tells you what he would do. Would he have started a war? Would he have bombed Iran? If he's going to criticize a deal that has been very successful in giving us access to Iranian facilities that we never had before, then he should tell us what his alternative would be. But it's like his plan to defeat ISIS. He says it's a secret plan, but the only secret is that he has no plan.
So we need to be more precise in how we talk about these issues. People around the word follow our presidential campaigns so closely, trying to get hints about what we will do. Can they rely on us? Are we going to lead the world with strength and in accordance with our values? That's what I intend to do. I intend to be a leader of our country that people can count on, both here at home and around the world, to make decisions that will further peace and prosperity, but also stand up to bullies, whether they're abroad or at home.
We cannot let those who would try to destabilize the world to interfere with American interests and security...
HOLT: Your two minutes is...
CLINTON: ... to be given any opportunities at all.
HOLT: ... is expired.
TRUMP: Lester, one thing I'd like to say.
HOLT: Very quickly. Twenty seconds.
TRUMP: I will go very quickly. But I will tell you that Hillary will tell you to go to her website and read all about how to defeat ISIS, which she could have defeated by never having it, you know, get going in the first place. Right now, it's getting tougher and tougher to defeat them, because they're in more and more places, more and more states, more and more nations.
HOLT: Mr. Trump...
TRUMP: And it's a big problem. And as far as Japan is concerned, I want to help all of our allies, but we are losing billions and billions of dollars. We cannot be the policemen of the world. We cannot protect countries all over the world...
HOLT: We have just...
TRUMP: ... where they're not paying us what we need.
HOLT: We have just a few final questions...
TRUMP: And she doesn't say that, because she's got no business ability. We need heart. We need a lot of things. But you have to have some basic ability. And sadly, she doesn't have that. All of the things that she's talking about could have been taken care of during the last 10 years, let's say, while she had great power. But they weren't taken care of. And if she ever wins this race, they won't be taken care of.
HOLT: Mr. Trump, this year Secretary Clinton became the first woman nominated for president by a major party. Earlier this month, you said she doesn't have, quote, "a presidential look." She's standing here right now. What did you mean by that?
TRUMP: She doesn't have the look. She doesn't have the stamina. I said she doesn't have the stamina. And I don't believe she does have the stamina. To be president of this country, you need tremendous stamina.
HOLT: The quote was, "I just don't think she has the presidential look."
TRUMP: You have -- wait a minute. Wait a minute, Lester. You asked me a question. Did you ask me a question?
You have to be able to negotiate our trade deals. You have to be able to negotiate, that's right, with Japan, with Saudi Arabia. I mean, can you imagine, we're defending Saudi Arabia? And with all of the money they have, we're defending them, and they're not paying? All you have to do is speak to them. Wait. You have so many different things you have to be able to do, and I don't believe that Hillary has the stamina.
HOLT: Let's let her respond. CLINTON: Well, as soon as he travels to 112 countries and negotiates a peace deal, a cease-fire, a release of dissidents, an opening of new opportunities in nations around the world, or even spends 11 hours testifying in front of a congressional committee, he can talk to me about stamina.
TRUMP: The world -- let me tell you. Let me tell you. Hillary has experience, but it's bad experience. We have made so many bad deals during the last -- so she's got experience, that I agree.
But it's bad, bad experience. Whether it's the Iran deal that you're so in love with, where we gave them $150 billion back, whether it's the Iran deal, whether it's anything you can -- name -- you almost can't name a good deal. I agree. She's got experience, but it's bad experience. And this country can't afford to have another four years of that kind of experience.
HOLT: We are at -- we are at the final question.
CLINTON: Well, one thing. One thing, Lester.
HOLT: Very quickly, because we're at the final question now.
CLINTON: You know, he tried to switch from looks to stamina. But this is a man who has called women pigs, slobs and dogs, and someone who has said pregnancy is an inconvenience to employers, who has said...
TRUMP: I never said that.
CLINTON: .... women don't deserve equal pay unless they do as good a job as men.
TRUMP: I didn't say that.
CLINTON: And one of the worst things he said was about a woman in a beauty contest. He loves beauty contests, supporting them and hanging around them. And he called this woman "Miss Piggy." Then he called her "Miss Housekeeping," because she was Latina. Donald, she has a name.
TRUMP: Where did you find this? Where did you find this?
CLINTON: Her name is Alicia Machado.
TRUMP: Where did you find this?
CLINTON: And she has become a U.S. citizen, and you can bet...
TRUMP: Oh, really? CLINTON: ... she's going to vote this November.
TRUMP: OK, good. Let me just tell you...
HOLT: Mr. Trump, could we just take 10 seconds and then we ask the final question...
TRUMP: You know, Hillary is hitting me with tremendous commercials. Some of it's said in entertainment. Some of it's said -- somebody who's been very vicious to me, Rosie O'Donnell, I said very tough things to her, and I think everybody would agree that she deserves it and nobody feels sorry for her.
But you want to know the truth? I was going to say something...
HOLT: Please very quickly.
TRUMP: ... extremely rough to Hillary, to her family, and I said to myself, "I can't do it. I just can't do it. It's inappropriate. It's not nice." But she spent hundreds of millions of dollars on negative ads on me, many of which are absolutely untrue. They're untrue. And they're misrepresentations.
And I will tell you this, Lester: It's not nice. And I don't deserve that.
But it's certainly not a nice thing that she's done. It's hundreds of millions of ads. And the only gratifying thing is, I saw the polls come in today, and with all of that money...
HOLT: We have to move on to the final question.
TRUMP: ... $200 million is spent, and I'm either winning or tied, and I've spent practically nothing.
HOLT: One of you will not win this election. So my final question to you tonight, are you willing to accept the outcome as the will of the voters? Secretary Clinton?
CLINTON: Well, I support our democracy. And sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. But I certainly will support the outcome of this election.
And I know Donald's trying very hard to plant doubts about it, but I hope the people out there understand: This election's really up to you. It's not about us so much as it is about you and your families and the kind of country and future you want. So I sure hope you will get out and vote as though your future depended on it, because I think it does.
HOLT: Mr. Trump, very quickly, same question. Will you accept the outcome as the will of the voters? TRUMP: I want to make America great again. We are a nation that is seriously troubled. We're losing our jobs. People are pouring into our country.
The other day, we were deporting 800 people. And perhaps they passed the wrong button, they pressed the wrong button, or perhaps worse than that, it was corruption, but these people that we were going to deport for good reason ended up becoming citizens. Ended up becoming citizens. And it was 800. And now it turns out it might be 1,800, and they don't even know.
HOLT: Will you accept the outcome of the election?
TRUMP: Look, here's the story. I want to make America great again. I'm going to be able to do it. I don't believe Hillary will. The answer is, if she wins, I will absolutely support her.
HOLT: All right. Well, that is going to do it for us. That concludes our debate for this evening, a spirit one. We covered a lot of ground, not everything as I suspected we would.
吃瓜群众们也纷纷表示，“追了一年的电视剧终于快到高潮了，已经拿好瓜子小板凳准备围观了。”
辩论将会持续90分钟，并且在这段时间里不会有任何广告插入。
➤Other: The candidates' microphones will not be muted at any time.
两位总统候选人的麦克风在这90分钟里一直都会是打开的。
辩论主持人Lester Holt 不可以在这90分钟里将镜头从辩论台上切走。
整场辩论将涉及三个话题：“实现繁荣”“美国方向”和“保障美国安全”。
➤The debate will consist of six 15-minute segments. The segment topics will be preselected by moderator Lester Holt.
辩论将由6个持续15分钟的小节组成。这6小节的辩论话题将会由主持人Lester Holt 提前选出。
➤The moderator will start each segment with a question, each candidate will have 2 minutes to respond. Candidates will have a chance to respond to each other. The moderator will use the remaining time in the segment to expand on the subject.主持人会在每小节开始时提出一个问题，每位候选人将有两分钟来对这一问题做出回应。候选人也可以回应对方提出的问题。主持人将在这一小节剩下的时间里延伸这一话题，并请两位候选人作答。
双方的辩（si）论（bi）风格
川普，外号“大嘴”，以敢说敢言的个人形象出名。他咄咄逼人、口无遮拦的风格吓坏了一些选民，同时也吸引了一批忠诚的追随者。他产金句也出惊句，你永远不知道他接下来会说啥。。。
而希拉里，作为前第一夫人、前国务卿，在政治经验上绝对碾压川普。但希拉里经历了“邮件门”、被指暗箱操控媒体、健康状况不佳以及丈夫的陈年旧事等，致使选民对她的信任度不高，“撒谎”成为她的致命点。
所以，美国媒体称今天的电视辩论为——＂疯子和骗子的辩论＂！
辩（si）论（bi）现场，火力十足
微博博主@马克Malik 发微博称：往届的总统大选辩论可以拿出来背用来练习演讲，今天的这场辩论....可以背一下练撕逼....今天川普和希拉里辩论的论述就是雅思口语6分VS雅思口语9分 的区别！
下面，我们就来看看这俩今天到底是怎么撕的！
第一轮辩论
第一轮辩论的主题是：achieving prosperity（实现繁荣）。
主要围绕着就业和增加美国人收入（put more money into the pockets of American workers）等方面展开。
希拉里上来先打温情牌：
Today is my granddaughter's second birthday so I think about this a lot.
今天是我小孙女的两岁生日，所以在这个方面我想了很多。（这个引入，有点僵硬啊……）
之后，不急不慢地给出了观点。
First, we have to build an economy that works for everyone, not just those at the top.
首先，我们得建设一种全民受益的经济，不能只是为了那些富人。
That means we need new jobs, good jobs with rising incomes.
就是说，我们需要新工作，好工作，还要涨工资。
但是，不管希拉里怎么说，川普都摆出一副“宝宝不听”，“宝宝不开心”的表情。
在希拉里慢条斯理地说了2分多钟以后（希拉里一直因为发言太拖沓太冗长而遭到年轻人的嫌弃），终于轮到川普说话了！（估计是憋坏了）
川普上来就表示，希拉里净说点没用的，墨西哥在和我们抢工作啊！
Our jobs are fleeing the country. They are going to Mexico, they are going to many other countries.
没看到我们的工作机会都溜走了吗？这些机会都去墨西哥了，还有其他国家。
双方你来我往，扯着扯着就说到投资清洁能源上了。这时候希拉里就抓住川普以前的言论刁难他。
Donald thinks that climate change is a hoax perpetrated by the Chinese.
川普觉得气候变化是中国搞得一个骗局。
川普当场就不乐意了。
I did not. I do not say that.
没有啊，我没有说过啊。
结果，美国“热心的”网友马上就找出证据，证明川普确实说过。（蜜汁尴尬啊）
“全球变暖的概念是中国人创造出来的，就是为了搞得美国制造业失去竞争力。”（川普2012年11月6号的推特）
这简直是啪啪啪打脸，你说就疼不疼。
不过，川普确实不按套路出牌啊，你和我谈就业，我和你谈别的国家；你和我谈别的国家，我和你谈你以前的问题。
And all you have to do is look at Michigan and look at Ohio and look at all of these places where so many of their jobs and their companies are just leaving. They are gone.
你看看密歇根，你看看俄亥俄，你看看这些地方，工作机会正在溜走，公司也都要搬走了。他们，都走了，走了，了。
And Hillary, I'd just ask you this. You've been doing this for 30 years. Why are you just thinking about these solutions right now?
希拉里，我就想问问你，你都在这方面工作30年了。为啥你现在才开始想解决方法？
希拉里表示，你忘了我老公以前是干什么的了么？（微笑脸）
And I have -- well, not quite that long. I think my husband did a pretty good job in the 1990s. I think a lot about what worked and how we can make it work again.
这个，我没工作那么长时间。不过，我丈夫在上世纪90年代在这方面可是做得不错呢。我思考了很多，也想能再振雄风，再创辉煌。
在纳税的问题上，战况也是十分的激烈。
希拉里揪着川普纳税问题不放，指责川普没交过税，不敢公开纳税申报单（tax return）。
Clinton：He's paid nothing in federal taxes.
希拉里：他都没交过税。
Trump：That makes me smart.
川普：这显得我聪明啊。
不得不说，纳税问题的回答绝对是川普的致命伤啊！
吃瓜群众笑的最high的一个片段是，希拉里被川普各种攻击以后说：
Clinton: “I have a feeling by the end of this thing I’m going to be blamed for everything.”
希拉里：我有种预感，这场辩论结束以后所有事情都该怪我咯。
Trump: “Why not?”
特朗普：不怪你怪谁？
第二轮辩论
第二轮辩论，主持人开宗明义：let's talk about race. （让我们谈谈种族问题。）
这个议题的背景是近期两起警察枪杀黑人民众的事件。
先看看双方观点：
希拉里提出进行刑事司法改革（criminal justice reform）：
1. Everyone should be respected by the law and everyone should respect the law. Right now, that's not the case in a lot of our neighborhoods.
每个人都应当被法律尊重，每个人也都应当尊重法律。但目前，我们很多社区并不是这样。
2. So I have, ever since the first day of my campaign, called for criminal justice reform.
我从参加竞选的第一天开始，就呼吁进行刑事司法改革。
3. The gun epidemic is the leading cause of death of young African-American men.
枪支泛滥是年轻美国黑人死亡的最主要原因。
4. So we have to do two things. We have to restore trust, we have to work with the police, we have to make sure they respect the communities and the communities respect them and we have to tackle the plague of gun violence, which is a big contributor to a lot of the problems that we're seeing today.
所以我们要做两件事：我们要重建信任，和警察共同努力，确保他们尊重人民，人民也尊重他们。其次，我们要处理枪支暴力的痼疾，因为这是我们今天所目睹的众多问题的一大根源。
川普的观点是……
希拉里不配谈“law and order”（法律和秩序）。
First of all, secretary Clinton doesn't want to use a couple of words. And that's law and order.
首先，有几个词是国务卿希拉里不该使用的，那就是法律和秩序。
然后开始结合个人情感讨论“law and order”……
来看看他东拉西扯的功夫，忍住不要笑……
We need law and order. If we don't have it, we're not going to have a country. And when I look at what's going on in Charlotte, a city I love, a city where I have investments...
我们需要法律和秩序，如果没有这些，就没有国家。当我看到发生在夏洛特市的事情，那是我爱的城市，我在那里有投资……
You walk down the street, you get shot.
你走在街上，然后就挨枪子了……
In Chicago, they've had thousands of shootings, thousands since January 1st. Thousands of shootings.
在芝加哥，有上千起枪击案，从一月一号起有上千起！上千起枪击案啊！
The argument is that we have to take the gun away from these people that have them and are bad people and shouldn't have them. These are felons. These are people that are bad people...
关键是我们要从这些人手里把枪夺走，这些人都是坏蛋，都不该拥有枪。这些都是重罪犯。这些人都是坏蛋……
You need more police. You need a better community, you know, relation. You don't have good community relations in Chicago. It's terrible. I have property there.
你需要更多的警察。你需要一个更好的社区，你懂的，关系。在芝加哥没有很好的社区关系，太糟糕了，我在那里有房产的。
然后，关于种族的话题扯到奥巴马的出生证。
希拉里谴责川普曾质疑奥巴马是否是美国人。
川普立刻插嘴，说当年希拉里和奥巴马还是竞选对手的时候，她的团队也找人去挖奥巴马的出生问题了。
They were pressing it very hard. She failed to get the birth certificate. When I got involved, I didn't fail. I got him to give the birth certificate.
他们施了很大的压，但她没搞到奥巴马的出生证明。后来我来了，我没失手，我逼他交出出生证明了。
希拉里当场就呵呵了，说：
Well, just listen to what you heard.
你们听听他刚刚都说了些什么。
希拉里谴责川普揪着奥巴马出身问题不放很伤人感情，因为奥巴马是个“值得尊敬的人”（a man of great dignity）。
I like to remember what Michelle Obama said in her amazing speech at our democratic national convention. “When they go low, we go high. ”
我想回顾一下米歇尔·奥巴马在我们民主党大会上那场精彩的演讲。“当他们往道德低处走时，我们继续向高处前行。”
川普就趁机揭穿希拉里的虚伪，说她当年和奥巴马作对手的时候可不是这么说的：
I got to watch in preparing for your debates for Barack Obama you treated him with terrible disrespect. And I watch the way you talk now about how lovely everything is. It doesn't work that way.
我看过你和奥巴马的辩论，你当时对待他极其不尊重。现在又看着你说得这么漂亮，好像所有的事都美好得很。这样可不行。
中国躺枪
整场辩论，两人好几次扯到我大天朝，除了前文提到的，还有一些让人啼笑皆非的：
- 1 -
川普表示，美国就业不好，全怪中国，中国把我们当储钱罐（piggy bank）……
Trump: You look at what China is doing to our country in terms of making our product.
看看中国在制造业方面对我国都做了些什么吧。
They are devaluing their currency and there's nobody in our government to fight them and we have a very good fight and we have a winning fight because they are using our country as a piggy bank to rebuild China and many other countries are doing the same thing. So we're losing our good jobs, so many of them.
他们在让货币贬值，但我们的政府里没人去和他们抗争。我们要抗争，我们也必须要赢，因为中国人正在像利用一个储钱罐一样，利用我们的国家，去重建他们的国家，很多别的国家也正在做类似的事情。所以我们有很多人都失业了，大好的工作啊。
- 2 -
川普表达了对中国机场的羡慕……
Trump: Our airports are like from a third world country. You land at Laguardia, Newark, L.A.X., and you come in from dubai and Qatar, you come in from China, you see these incredible airports, we've become a third-world country.
特朗普：我们的机场就像是第三世界国家的一样。如果你降落到拉瓜迪亚机场，纽瓦克机场，或者洛杉矶机场，你再想想你出发的那些迪拜的机场，卡塔尔的机场，中国的机场。看看人家那些漂亮的机场，再看看我们的，我们的机场反而更像是第三世界国家的。
- 3 -
川普怪中国贬值人民币，打压美国制造业，这样无情地对待美国，深感痛心……
Trump: Our country is in deep trouble. We don't know what we're doing when it comes to devaluations and all of these countries all over the world, especially China, they are the best, the best ever at it. What they are doing to us is a very, very sad thing.
我国遇到大麻烦了。世界上那么多国家都在贬值他们的货币，中国正是这些国家里最厉害的一个，而我们对此手足无措。他们这么对待我们是让人十分痛心的。
- 4 -
川普表示中国应该为美国解决朝鲜的核问题……
Trump: Because you look at some of these countries. You look at North Korea, we're doing nothing there. China should solve that problem for us. China should go into north Korea, China is totally powerful as it relates to North Korea.
你看看某些国家的所作所为。你看看朝鲜，我们对他们什么都没干涉。中国应当替我们解决这个问题。中国应该侵入到朝鲜去，它有这个实力，因为这也与它息息相关。
第三轮辩论
第三部分的议题是：securing America（保障美国安全）。
- 1 -
主持人的问题是：美国的网络攻击背后到底是谁在作祟，我们又该如何面对它？
希拉里正面回答了提问：
There are the independent hacking groups that do it mostly for commercial reasons to try to steal information that they then can use to make money. But increasingly, we are seeing cyberattacks coming from states.
有独立的黑客集团，为了商业目的窃取信息牟利，但来自其他国家的网络攻击也越来越多。
I think we need do much more with our tech companies to prevent ISIS and their operatives from being able to use the internet.
我认为我们需要跟科技公司合作，阻止ISIS及其操纵对象使用网络。
她的观点是，美国应该领导盟友进行全球反恐：
We have to work more closely with our allies. We're working with nato.
我们要和盟友密切合作，和北约合作。
特朗普反击道，希拉里只会夸夸其谈，而他会用实际行动：
So when secretary Clinton talks about I'll take the admirals and generals any day over the political hacks.
希拉里夸夸其谈时，我会带着海军和陆军上将对政治黑客掀起反击。
必须要提的是希拉里的“邮件门”：
You don't know who broke into DNC, but what did we learn? We learn that Bernie Sanders was taken advantage of by your people.
不知道是谁黑了民主党全国委员会，不过我们知道的什么？是你们利用了伯尼·桑德斯。
此时桑德斯早早等在电视机前观看辩论的背影有一种谜之感觉...
跑题的风格也是坚持到底，拿儿子说事：
I have a son. He's 10 years old. He has computers. He is so good with these computers, it's unbelievable. The security aspect of cyber is very, very tough.
我有个儿子，他十岁了，他有台电脑，他电脑玩得特别溜，让人难以置信。网络安全问题非常非常难对付。
最后亮出观点，美国不应该再当世界警察：
We are losing billions and billions of dollars. We cannot be the policeman of the world.
我们失去了数十亿美元，我们不能当世界警察。
- 2 -
特朗普称美国应该从伊拉克手中夺回石油，这样ISIS就不会攻击美国了。希拉里的回击一针见血，川普的反驳只剩傲娇的一个字……
Clinton: Well, I hope the fact checkers are turning up the volume and really working hard. Donald supported the invasion of Iraq.
希拉里：嗯，我希望事实核查员加把劲，努努力，川普支持进军伊拉克。
Trump: Wrong.
特朗普：错。
Clinton: That is absolutely --
希拉里：这绝对是……
Trump: Wrong.
特朗普：错。
Clinton: Proved over and over again.
特朗普：一遍又一遍的证明了。
Trump: Wrong.
特朗普：错。
主持人向川普确认到底是不是支持伊拉克战争。
Trump: Would you like to hear? I was against the war, wait a minute. I was against the war in Iraq. Just so you put it out.
特朗普：想知道答案吗？我反对战争，等等，我反对伊拉克战争，现在你知道了吧。
Clinton: The record shows otherwise, but.
希拉里：然而记录里显示的并不是这样。
Trump: It does not show that. The record shows that I'm right.
特朗普：不是的，记录显示我是对的。
- 3 -
本小节出现了整场辩论最经典的一句话：I have a winning temperament. （我有获胜的性格。）川普不愧是段子手……
当主持人问川普为什么他的看法跟希拉里不同时，川普的论点是：
I have better judgment, I also have a much better temperament than she does, you know? I have a much better.
我有更好的判断，我性格也比她好，你知道吗？好多了。
I think my strongest asset, maybe by far is my temperament. I have a winning temperament. I know how to win. She does not.
我认为我最大的优点，目前为止可能就是我的性格，我有获胜的性格。我知道怎么赢，她不知道。
希拉里表示 Woo, okay（呵呵，好吧）。
网友表示：川普连temperament是什么都不知道吧。
我还是觉得川普根本不知道temperament是什么意思，就一直把它等同于获胜。
- 4 -
特朗普曾经称希拉里“没有总统相”（doesn't have a presidential look），主持人问他这句话什么意思。特朗普的解释：
She doesn't have the look. She doesn't have the stamina.
她没有总统相，没有精力。
主持人：然而你说是总统相，相貌……
特朗普：
Did you ask me a question?
你问我问题了吗？
好吧……
- 5 -
最后一个问题：只有一个人会赢得大选，输了是否能接受？
希拉里表示无论输赢，支持民主：
I support our democracy. And sometimes you win. Sometimes you lose. But I certainly will support the outcome of this election. It's not about us so much as it is about you and your families and the kind of country and future you want.
我支持民主，输赢有时，但我会支持选举结果。选举不是关于我们俩，而且关于你们和你们的家庭以及我们国家的未来。
川普再次跑题：
I want to make America great again. The other day we were deporting 800 people. Perhaps they pressed the wrong button, or perhaps worse than that, it was corruption. These people we were going to deport ended up becoming citizens. End the up becoming citizens, and it's 800, and now it turns out, it might be 1800, and they don't even know.
我想让美国再次伟大起来+跑题500字（大意是想遣返非法移民）。
在主持人的追问下，特朗普表示也会支持希拉里：
If she wins, I will absolutely support her.
如果希拉里赢了，我也绝对会支持她。
整场辩论到此结束，两人握手言和。
CNN民调显示，希拉里成为这场辩论的胜利者，62%的观众认为希拉里表现更胜一筹，只有27%的认为特朗普表现好。
谁辩（si）论（bi）赢了？
辩论前，CNN的民意调查显示，川普跟希拉里的支持率不分上下，两人的选民拥护程度几乎不分高下，非常接近。
首场辩论结束后，CNN新鲜出炉的一场民调显示：62%的受访者认为希拉里赢了，27%的受访者认为特朗普赢了。
接下来还有两场总统候选人辩论赛，将分别于10月9日密苏里州Washington University 和10月19日内华达州的University of Las Vegas 举行。
究竟谁赢了第一场辩论？
「毫无疑问，特朗普赢得了辩论，再一次证明了他是美国此刻最需要的领袖。」 26岁的AlizaRomanoff从特朗普对阵希拉莉首场辩论的现场步出，笑容满面。她是400位特朗普阵营邀请的现场观众之一，在她看来， 当晚的特朗普与往常一样，坦率敢言，表现真我。
「赢的当然是希拉莉。」 同样在现场看辩论的19岁穆斯林女学生Farimah Mozawalla的判断截然相反。她和两个女同学站在会场路边，吱吱喳喳讨论辩论片段，兴奋之情溢于言表。纽约长岛Hosfstra大学是这次辩论的会场，在这里读书的Mozawalla幸运地抽中门票，成为300名学生观众的一员。「跟我之前想的一样，希拉莉显然更适合这份工作。」她尤其满意希拉莉提到，美国穆斯林族群是阻挡ISIS极端思想渗透国内的第一道防线。
万众瞩目的2016年美国总统大选首场辩论落下帷幕，此前估计有超过一亿人收看，媲美美式橄榄球「超级碗」赛事，有望成为史上收视率最高的辩论。对特朗普和希拉莉来说，比收视人数更关键的是，有多少选民被他们打动了？有一种观点认为，两人都没有在首场辩论中取得一面倒的大胜。不少在辩论前已有心水候选人的选民，没有因首场辩论而改变心意，许多没拿定主意的中间选民则依旧观望。
2016年美国大选总统候选人首场电视辩论网友投票结果。图：端传媒设计组
美国各网站在辩论后马上得到的网友投票统计来看，大部分网站调查结果，都是特朗普赢得了辩论。但是，专业民调机构，对登记选民做的更加严谨的调查则显示，希拉莉赢了。
这或许与特朗普动员「死忠粉」的能力强大有关，他们未必是大多数，但是最活跃。主流媒体在说「希拉莉赢了」，便激发了特朗普粉丝的热情。网络的开放式调查，给特朗普粉丝提供了平台。而登记选民回答问题时，则更为谨慎。
2016年美国大选总统候选人首场电视辩论机构民调结果。图：端传媒设计组
特朗普与希拉莉虽然支持率接近，但所谓「中间选民」大多集中在共和党阵营。21岁的大学生DavidLovas若有所思地走出会场，他还不能决定，六周后要在自己的首张大选选票上选择谁的名字。他自认议题取向和共和党立场接近，他却对特朗普仍有疑虑。
今晚他胡扯太多了，一直重复自己，像是一张坏掉的、一直跳针的唱片，没有清楚表达观点。我想，希拉莉赢了辩论。
Lovas说，这场辩论将原本倾向于特朗普的他更趋中立，他回家后还要重看录像，留意他们在接下来两场辩论中的表现，才能作最终决定。
对于特朗普积极进攻的表现，各人有不同的解读。「特朗普完全搞砸了，他不停打断希拉莉，像个小孩子似的，太不成熟了。」 Mozawalla摇摇头说：「插嘴可不是外交之道。」Romanoff 却认为，这是特朗普富有激情的表现，他以强大的求胜心成功多次反击希拉莉。「当他成为总统，他会用这份为自己而战的激情来为我们的国家争胜。」她眉飞色舞地说。她分析，特朗普作为成功的生意人，个性「绝不会差到哪里去」，与外国领袖谈判时，他一定会适时调整自己。
她们对希拉莉有共同评价：她镇定稳重、辩才出色、表述清晰。「就算是在两个矮子里面挑高的，起码希拉莉是有总统风度和政策经验的，她值得这份工作。」Mozawalla的眼神中充满骄傲。当我提到希拉莉，Romanoff耸了耸肩。
希拉莉就是希拉莉，发言都是反复演练过的，句子都非常长。
这正是她欣赏的特朗普的即兴、直率风格的反面。「上周希拉莉躲在酒店里背书，特朗普可都在各地出席公开活动拉票。」
辩论前，特朗普阵营在发给支持者的邮件中放出两张照片，一张是特朗普人头攒动的拉票活动，一张是空荡荡的体育馆，以此调侃希拉莉在辩论前一周减少公开活动、闭门「做功课」。特朗普也发Twitter配合说：「希拉莉又放假了。她需要休息。祝妳睡得香，希拉莉。辩论场见！」
曾竞选参议员、两次参选总统的希拉莉是近年来参加政治辩论最多的政治家，她打过约40场选举辩论。然而，这次她面对的是不按牌理出牌的对手。连希拉莉本人都承认，她无法预料特朗普会展现哪个人格。「可能他会试着表现总统风度、展现前所未有的气场，又或者他会一站上台就开始侮辱、攻击，尝试得分。」希拉莉曾这样说。
力求万无一失的希拉莉在辩论前三日都到离家不远的酒店准备辩论，每晚11点后才回家，似乎是有意适应晚间辩论的作息。据悉，希拉莉反复看特朗普初选辩论的录像，记录他发怒的情境。而特朗普则只在辩论前一天在新泽西州的高尔夫球场和顾问们见面，就着芝士汉堡和苏打水谈论了辩论策略，据称没有进行模拟辩论。
特朗普阵营的发言人JasonMiller在辩论前表示，希拉莉过度准备辩论，显示出她是一个贪恋权力的职业政客，而特朗普不会彩排30秒钟的『罐头』演讲。「显而易见，我会准备。但我不想一下子练习太多，那样你就不是真正的你了。」特朗普在辩论前对媒体说。事实上，特朗普已经「偷偷」准备多时了。在辩论几周前，他打破即兴演讲的常规，开始按演讲稿发言，以练习深入谈论政策细节，从党内初选中的「表态」向大选中针锋相对的「攻防」转型。
2016年9月26日，美国加州，人们在酒吧中观看两党总统候选人首次电视辩论。摄：RobynBeck/AFP
史上悬念最多的「超级辩论」
希拉莉VS特朗普的首场辩论估计有超过一亿人收看，媲美美式橄榄球超级碗赛事，有望成为历史上收视率最高的辩论，其中六成观众是首次关注大选详情。2012年奥巴马与罗姆尼的第一、二场辩论，平均收视人数仅为6640万。
希拉莉VS特朗普之所以能成为创收视纪录的「超级辩论」，关键在于悬念重重。一是目前选情争持激烈，最新民调中两人支持率只差3%。
二是希拉莉和特朗普的对比强烈，一个是前第一夫人和国务卿、职业政客，一个是娱乐、商业大亨。两人政见迥异，自初选以来隔空针锋相对，在辩论中会擦出怎样的火花，难以预料。第三，两人都非常不受欢迎，最新的路透社民调发现，分别有58%、55%的选民表示，不喜欢特朗普和希拉莉。这还是美国历史上首次有一男一女候选人站上总统辩论台，激荡出与清一色男性政客辩论截然不同的气氛（奥巴马与希拉莉争夺过党内提名）。
另外，特朗普无疑是一个刺激收视率的明星。连希拉莉阵营的新闻秘书Brain Fallon也承认，特朗普的真人秀个性（showmanship）使他成为「辩论中可畏的对手」。由于外界对他「不按牌理出牌」的个性和争议性言论的关注，共和党党内辩论时，CNN和福克斯电视台（FOXNews）都录得破纪录的收视率。
观众嗅到了戏剧性和不确定性，连经验丰富的政治分析师都只能」expect the unexpected」 （预期它的不可预期性）。
「我只能确定希拉莉会出现在辩论中。我甚至都不能确定特朗普会不会现身。」有超过30年选举民意调查经验的WhitAyres在辩论前对端传媒说。在本次大选中辅助卢比奥（Marco Rubio）的Ayres是共和党的资深政治分析师，他预测：「以及无论特朗普做什么、说什么，他的死忠粉丝都会觉得他说得对。」
Ayres还指出，本届大选有一个显着特征：人们花了更多时间讨论候选人的个性，而非政策。「而辩论又是个性的碰撞，这让辩论在这次选举中变得尤为关键。」
电视辩论历史
建立能吸引选民的电视形象从此成为候选人的一大考验，除了辩才、外表，连幽默感、身体语言都会成为影响因素。演员出身的里根不仅形象良好，还十分幽默，连辩论对手都被逗笑了。
在与克林顿辩论时，老布殊低头看表的举动被观众认为有失尊重。戈尔对上小布殊的辩论中，戈尔在完成个人论述后多次叹气，显示出极度紧张后突然放松的状态，个人形象大大减分，也让事前不被看好的小布殊出人意料地通过辩论扭转局势。
历年调查显示，辩论对最后投票结果的影响不是决定性的，除了戈尔对小布殊那次，对小布殊的支持率上升有很明显的影响。
换句话说，候选人或许不能通过辩论赢得选举，但可能因为辩论输掉选举。
美国大选结果与电视辩论表现关系图。图：端传媒设计组
美国史上第一次电视直播的总统大选辩论发生在电视机普及之初的1960年，辩论双方是时任副总统尼克松和初出茅庐的参议员肯尼迪。在荧幕上，肯尼迪显得镇静自如，辩才不错的尼克松拒绝化妆、不时擦汗，形象扣分。当时流传一个说法：听电台的人认为尼克松赢了辩论，看电视的人却青睐肯尼迪。
一项关于大选辩论的研究发现，具有视觉冲击力的电视辩论可帮助观众理解候选人的政策，但同时，电视观众倾向于以候选人展现的形象个性论成败，而不是政策内容。因此，对本来就青睐于某个候选人个性的选民来说，电视辩论不太会影响他们的偏好。
相比之下，电台听众会综合候选人的个性和政策来评判胜败，而且在评价个性时，主要关注候选人的领袖才能。而看到画面的电视观众评判候选人个性时，除了关注领袖才能，还看重候选人是否正直。
2016年9月26日，电视辩论完结后，总统候选人希拉莉和特朗普一同走向前。摄：JoeRaedle/REUTERS
研究社交媒体的Hosfstra大学传播学院助理教授吴静思认为，社交媒体也让选民们更加「固执己见」。社交媒体盛行的当今，无论是候选人、重要幕僚、活跃支持者，只要有twitter账号和一定数量的追随者，就成为自媒体。不少选民只会关注与自己政见相近的「大V」，能看到都是一边倒的论述。「两方有针锋相对的观点，而且两方阵营都认为自己掌握大量『真相』。」
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