《心理新青年》对话美国著名心理学家Susan Fiske教授（上篇）：我的社会心理学之旅
《心理新青年》对话美国普林斯顿大学
Susan Fiske教授
苏珊费斯克博士专访（上篇）：
我的社会心理学之旅
1. 嘉宾简介
Dr. Susan T. Fiske is Eugene Higgins Professor of Psychology and Professor of Public Affairs at Princeton University. She received her Ph.D. at Harvard University in 1978. Professor Fiske's research addresses how stereotyping, prejudice, and discrimination are encouraged or discouraged by social relationships, such as cooperation, competition, and power. She has written more than 350 articles and chapters, as well as authored and edited many influential books in the field, including the Annual Review of Psychology and Handbook of Social Psychology. She is amember of the National Academy of Sciences and has won numerous awards for her contributions to the field of social psychology.
苏珊费斯克博士是美国普林斯顿大学心理学和公共事务的杰出教授。她于1978年获得哈佛大学哲学博士学位。费斯克教授的研究探讨了人们的社会关系如何促进或者阻碍了刻板印象、偏见和歧视的心理过程，比如合作、竞争和权力等。她和合作者们共同编著了350多篇学术论文和图书章节，并主持编纂了众多社会心理学领域具有高度影响力的论文和书籍，包括《心理学年度评论》和《社会心理学手册》等。她是当代著名社会心理学家，因其在社会心理学领域的卓越贡献而多次获奖。其中，《社会心理学手册》于2010年获得APA杰出科学贡献奖。她于2013年入选美国国家科学院院士。
2. 采访题记
The world is currently undergoing tremendous economic and cultural transitions. As social scientists, what roles can social psychologists play in this fast-changing dynamic? How to utilize our own research to contribute to the innovative scientific development and meaningful societal progress in a unique way?
当今世界正在经历着巨大的经济变革和文化转型。作为社会科学家，社会心理学家可以在瞬息万变的动态过程中发挥什么作用？如何让我们的科学研究工作为进一步的科学发展和有意义的社会进步作出独特的贡献？
3. 采访正文
苏珊费斯克博士专访（上篇）：
我的社会心理学之旅
《心理新青年》: First of all, we really appreciate you taking time out of your busy schedule and accepting our interview invitation! We noticed you studied Social Relations at Radcliffe College, and then pursued Psychology and Social Relations for your Ph.D. We are curious about your career path and the stories behind it. Why did you pick psychology in general? And how did you become interested in stereotyping research in particular?
首先，我们非常感谢您抽出宝贵时间，接受我们的采访邀请。我们留意到您在哈佛大学的拉德克利夫学院学习社会关系，然后在博士期间研究心理学和社会关系。我们对您的职业路径及其背后的故事感到十分好奇。您当初为什么会选择心理学？又是如何对刻板印象研究产生了特别的兴趣呢？
Susan Fiske: There are several reasons why I went to the field of psychology, and in particular stereotype research. My research trajectory is influenced by both sides of my family, where I lived, and the time when I came of age. Both my mother and grandmother went to Radcliffe, which was Harvard’s sister college. My mother's diploma even says in Latin: “this is just as good as a Harvard degree.” When I attended high school, pretty much all of the Ivy Leagues were male only. Then I applied to Radcliffe, a women’s college, and graduated from “Harvard Radcliffe”. These changes for women are part of the theme why I got into the field.
苏珊费斯克博士：我踏入心理学领域，特别是刻板印象研究，有这样几个方面的原因。我的研究轨迹受到了我两边家庭的影响、我之前住的地方、以及我所成长的时代。我母亲和祖母都毕业于哈佛的姐妹学院-拉德克利夫学院。我母亲的文凭上甚至用拉丁文写着：“这个学位和哈佛大学的学位一样好”。当我上高中的时候，几乎所有的常春藤盟校都只有男性学生。所以我申请了拉德克利夫学院，一个女子学院，之后毕业于“哈佛大学的拉德克利夫学院”。这些关于女性的改变是我为什么会进入这个领域的部分原因。
One side of my family is interested in constructive problem solving about social issues in gender as well as ethnicity. My great grandmother and my grandmother both worked for women's suffrage. They would never say they were “suffragettes,” because that’s too diminutive and they would rather say they were “suffragists.” My mother worked in a non-partisan group in the city of Chicago that promoted dialogues and facts in politics. She was part of the League of Women Voters, which was the group that was formed after women had the right to vote. The other side of my family influence is my father, Donald Fiske, who was a methodologist and a psychometrician. He published the most cited article in the first one hundred years of Psychological Bulletin (Campbell & Fiske, 1959), the classic method paper on convergent and discriminant validation by the multi-trait-multi-method matrix. So in a way, I combined my parents’ interests. In addition, my brother Alan Fiske, who’s a cultural psychologist, is also a family influence.
我母亲一方的家庭对如何建设性地解决性别和种族问题很感兴趣。我的曾祖母和我的祖母都致力于妇女投票权益的工作。她们永远不会说自己是“争取选举权的妇女”，因为那听起来太微小了，她们宁愿说自己是“主张扩大妇女参政权的人”。我母亲在芝加哥的一个无党派团体中工作，该团体倡导政治领域的对话和事实。她是女性选民联盟的一名成员，这是一个在妇女有了投票权之后成立的社会团体。我的另一方面的家庭影响，来自于我的父亲唐纳德菲斯克，他是一位方法学家和心理测量学家。他在《心理学公告》中发表了一篇一百年来被引用次数最多的文章(Campbell & Fiske, 1959), 该文章提出了一个经典方法，即采用多质-多法矩阵进行聚合分析和辨别验证。所以，在某种程度上，我结合了我父母的兴趣。另外，我的兄弟艾伦菲斯克，是一名文化心理学家，他也是我的一个家庭影响来源。
My locations also influenced my research. I grew up in Hyde Park in Chicago (also Obama’s neighborhood), which is a stable, racially integrated community. When I went to school in Boston, it was a shock, because I saw far less ethnic variety in Boston. It was very segregated. Even though Chicago was segregated too, in my experience as an elementary school kid, for example, I went to school with all different kinds of people. But when I got to Boston, suddenly the experience was all white. As a white Anglo person who was used to something different, it was a shock. And I couldn't figure out why it was different, because Boston is such as progressive city. So it seemed strange, and I wanted to figure out why.
我生活的地理位置也影响了我的研究。我小时候在芝加哥的海德公园（也是奥巴马成长的社区）长大，那是一个较为稳定、种族融合的社区。当我去了波士顿上学的时候，我感到很震惊，因为我在波士顿看到的种族差异要少得多，而且是非常种族隔离的。尽管芝加哥也比较种族隔离，但是我上小学的时候，会和各种各样的人一起上学。当我到达波士顿的时候，突然间我的身边几乎全是白人。作为一个习惯于不同事物的盎格鲁撒克逊白人，这是一个很震惊的事情。我不明白为什么两个城市会如此不同，因为波士顿是个非常先进的城市。所以这看起来很奇怪，我想弄清楚背后的原因。
The times also made a difference. I came in the age of 1970s, in the Vietnam protests and civil rights era. I wanted to make the world a better place, but I didn't want to do it by just having opinions---you have to have evidence. I realized that I would have to go to graduate school and get the tools to represent voices that were not being heard. Therefore, my whole background and my family influence all prompt me to study stereotypes, prejudice, and discrimination. It was clear to me even then that who you are informs what youthink is interesting to study. The problems you pick, what you call them, how you label them, how you study them, and the conclusions that you draw are influenced by who you are. Of course, then you have to defend your position in the marketplace of ideas and scientific peer reviews and so on.
我所处的时代节点也给我的研究带来了变化。我成长在上世纪70年代，那是越南战争和民权运动的年代。我想让这个世界变得更加美好，但我想不能仅仅通过发表意见来达成目标---你必须要有证据。我当时意识到，我不得不去读研究生，获得必要的工具和方法，从而才能去代表那些没有被社会所听到的声音。因此，我的整个社会背景和我的家庭影响都促使了我去研究美国社会的刻板印象，偏见和歧视问题。即便在当时，我已经非常清楚，你是谁如何影响你的思维，就是一个有趣的问题值得研究。你选择什么问题，你如何给它命名或贴标签，你如何研究它们，你得出什么结论，都被你是怎样的人所影响着。当然，之后你必须学会在市场上流通的各种想法和科学同行评议的过程中捍卫自己的立场和观点。
At the time that I was an undergraduate, there were hardly any female psychologists or female social psychologists specifically. And this influenced the research approaches. Just as an illustration, there was a phenomenon called “field dependency” versus “field independence.” For example, if you're in a dark room and they tilt the chair you're in, do you pay attention to cues about the walls or you pay attention to your internal cues? Women and minorities were claimed to have “field dependence” and men and majorities were claimed to have “field independence”. But I thought, why don't you call it “field sensitivity”? Which sounds better? So that’s an instance of how your identity affects the way you label it and interpret it. As one of the few women psychologists at that time, I was seeing all these individual differences, particularly in gender classes---and unfortunately their labels all made women look bad. And I just thought this is not okay. Somebody with a different point of view has to come along.
在我读本科的时候，几乎没有女性心理学家或女性社会心理学家，这个环境影响了我的研究取向。比如，如果你在一个黑暗的房间里，他们会把你坐的椅子倾斜，你会注意到墙壁的外在线索还是个人的内部线索？女性和少数族裔被认为具有“场依赖”性，而“男性和多数族裔”被认为拥有“场独立性”。但是我当时在想，为什么不把它叫做“场敏感度”呢？哪个听起来更好？这个例子说明了你的认同会影响你如何给一个现象贴标签并提供解释。作为当时为数不多的几位女性心理学家之一，我看到了这些个体差异，尤其是性别阶层。不幸的是，那些标签都让女性看起来很糟糕。我觉得这样不好，持有不同观点的人必须要出现并发声。
I broadened my goal to under-represented people besides women: immigrants, for example, as I think the overall trend in the world is globalization. We will see more people doing different kinds of things, visiting different places, being friends and marrying each other and working together. I think that's the way of the future. And I think it's healthy. I would say those are the main influences on how I went into the field.
后来我把我的研究目标扩展到了女性之外的群体：美国移民，因为我认为世界的总体趋势是全球化。我们将会看到更多的人去做不同的事情，去不同的地方走访，成为朋友，成为夫妻，一起工作。我认为那会是人类未来的发展道路，而且这是一个非常健康的发展方向。我想这些都是我进入这个领域的主要影响。
《心理新青年》：Your Stereotype Content Model (SCM) model has been extremely popular and influential among Chinese social psychologists, and many researchers have been applying your theories in their own studies. As some pointed out, Chinese culture emphasizes morality and ethics (e.g. filial piety, universal benevolence, and harmony). What are your perspectives on the development of SCM and its applications in differing cultural context?
你的刻板印象内容模型在中国社会心理学话语体系中非常流行和具有影响力。许多研究者在他们自己的研究中应用了你的理论。一些人指出，中国文化强调道德伦理（如孝道、博爱、和谐）。你对刻板印象内容模型的发展及其在不同文化背景下的应用有什么看法？
Susan Fiske: As a preamble to this question, a Chinese Professor said to me that modern Chinese culture is a dynamic mix, and it's changing. We have data on this part. For example, respect for older people is a traditional value in China, as well as in other East Asian and South Asian countries. But when we measure ageism, it's actually worse in East Asia than it is in the West. And our results suggest it's because of people's concerns about resources. In the old days in the U.S. and in China, people would take care of the old people, and they would live in their children’s house. But now there's more concern, at least at the group level, about paying for all these old people. In the U.S., people worried about baby boomers being a burden on the economy. And in China, I don't know what the situation is, but maybe with the one-child policy there was more anxiety about how people are going to support the older people. So I think people can feel simultaneously fond of their grandparents and worried about the whole society and how it is going to handle the elderly.
苏珊费斯克博士：作为这个问题的序言，有位中国教授曾对我说，现代中国文化是多个文化的动态组合，而且一直在变化。我们有这方面的数据。例如，尊重老人是中国以及其他东亚和南亚国家的传统价值观，但当我们测量年龄歧视时，东亚的情况其实比西方更糟。我们的数据结果表明，这是因为人们对资源的担忧。在过去的美国和中国，人们会照顾老人，他们会住在孩子家里。但现在出现了更多的担忧，至少在群体层面需要考虑如何为这些老人买单。在美国，人们曾经担心婴儿潮一代会成为美国经济的负担。在中国，我不知道是什么情况，但也许是在独生子女政策会让人担心人们将如何支持老年人。所以我认为人们可能同时感觉到他们对祖父母的爱戴并担心整个社会如何奉养老年人。
So people all over the world, including the U.S. and China, stereotype older people as warm and well-intentioned (deserving help) but simultaneously as incompetent to contribute (requiring resources). This kind of ambivalent stereotype is typical of what the SCM finds. Disabled people and children also are viewed as warm but incompetent, requiring care. The other kind of ambivalent SCM stereotype is competent but cold. All over the world, rich people are stereotyped this way, as you know, Sherry, from our recently published paper.
世界各地的人，包括美国和中国，认为老年人是热情和善意的（值得帮助的），但同时认为他们没有能力为社会做贡献（需要资源）。这种矛盾的刻板印象是刻板印象内容模型（以下简称内容模型）的典型发现。残疾人和儿童群体也被视为温暖但无能，需要照顾。另外一种矛盾的刻板印象是高能力但冷漠。世界各地的富人都是这样被感知的，这一点从我们最近发表的论文也可以看出来。
Warmth consists of morality and sociality, which are highly correlated. And competence consists of capability and agency, which are highly correlated. So you can think of the SCM as having four clusters of groups, the two kinds I just mentioned, plus the warm-competent ideal citizen and the low-low opposite (societal outcasts). With regard to the universality of SCM, on one level, it seems to be quite universal in the sense that if you ask people about the groups in their society, the two dimensions (warmth and competence) spread the groups out, and the resulting map meets the "eye ball test". You look at it, it makes sense, and people from the culture also think it makes sense.
热情是由道德和社会关系组成的，这两者是高度相关的。能力是由才能和能动性组成的，两者也具有高相关。所以你可以把内容模型看作是四组类别，包括我刚才所提到的两种矛盾刻板印象类型，再加上高热情-高能力的理想公民和低热情-低能力的被社会所驱逐和排斥的人。至于内容模型的普遍性，在某种程度上，它似乎是相当文化普适的。如果你问人们对于社会不同群体所持有的态度，二个维度（热情和能力）可以将这些群体很好的区分开来，结果图也很符合“眼球测试”。你看那些结果，感觉它是有道理的，而且来自那个具体文化中的人也认为这些结果是有意义的。
There are a few exceptions to the four quadrants. Sometimes it’s more of a vector than it is a cloud of points. And sometimes the ambivalent quadrants go away. Specifically, there are three main considerations. First, lack of ambivalent stereotype quadrants happens in more equal countries, countries that have the big social safety net like Switzerland and the Scandinavian countries. Groups are either us (part of the nation, high on both dimensions) or not (low on both).
在这四个象限之外也有几个例外情况。有时它更像一个矢量，而不是一些散点集合。有时矛盾性刻板印象会消失不见。具体而言，有三个主要的考虑因素。首先，缺乏矛盾性刻板印象的情况可能会发生在更加平等的国家，比如瑞士和斯堪的纳维亚这样拥有庞大社会安全网络的国家。群体要么属于我们（国家的一部分，在两个维度上都很高），要么不是我们（两个维度都很低）。
Second, lack of ambivalence happens more if a country has a civil war or international war, because the distinction between “us” versus “them” would be stronger there. But if a country has got a lot of inequality, like the U.S. and China, we are more likely to observe all four quadrants. And I think it's because the society has to explain why some people are poor and deserving and some people are poor and undeserving.
第二，如果一个国家发生内战或国际战争，缺乏矛盾性刻板印象的情况就会更多，因为“我们”和“他们”之间的区别会更大。但是，如果一个国家像美国和中国一样有存在很多不平等现象，我们更有可能观察到所有四个象限。我认为这是因为，社会必须提供解释为什么有些人是贫穷而应得的，而有些人是贫穷但不应得的。
Third, the first time when we studied East Asian cultures was in Hong Kong, Japan, and South Korea. The high-warmth, high-competence quadrant was missing in all three cases. What in Western cultures would be a high-high quadrant was changed to a more neutral and modest space in these East Asian cultures. To me it fits the lessons from cultural psychology: in East Asian cultures, it is traditionally mature to be modest (humble and neutral) about yourself and your own groups; the stereotypic arrogance of some Americans looks babyish and not very mature. So those are the three main considerations: equality, peace, and maybe an East-West difference.
第三，我们首次研究东亚文化是在香港、日本和韩国，发现这三个地方都没有出现高热情、高能力的象限。本来在西方文化中会是高-高组合的情况，在这些东亚文化中变成了更加中立和谦逊的空间。对我来说，它符合文化心理学的研究结论：在东亚文化中，对自己和自己的内群体保持谦逊（谦卑和中立）是一种传统美德。一些美国人刻板化的傲慢看起来是幼稚和不成熟的。因此，这是三个主要影响因素：平等、和平，也许还有东西方文化差异。
《心理新青年》：Stereotypes, discrimination and prejudice exist everywhere around the world. What would you recommend social psychologists do to bridge or promote the conversation between theories and applications?
我们生活的世界中充满了刻板印象、偏见和歧视现象。您会建议社会心理学家做些什么，来架起一座沟通的桥梁或者促进理论和应用之间的对话？
Susan Fiske: I think teaching about this material is really important because colleges and universities all around the world train people who will be the leaders in charge of things. Teach diversity. From a pragmatic point of view, diversity can be profitable. Business needs to have variety. Because if you want to have a diverse customer base, you need to have a diverse employee base to anticipate what those clients want. There's creativity in hybrid vigor. And I think there's also a moral reason to teach diversity. It's just the right thing to do. Become more global and accept it.
苏珊费斯克博士：我认为向更多的人们讲授这些知识体系和研究发现非常重要，因为世界各地的大学都在培训那些未来将会成为领导和决策者的人。讲授多样性。从务实的角度来看，多样性可以带来很多利润。做生意需要多样化。因为如果你想拥有一个多样化的客户群体，你就需要有一个多样化的员工结构基础来预测客户的多元需求。将不同的活力汇聚起来就会产生创造力。同时，我认为讲授多样性也有道德层面的原因。它才是正确的做法。我希望大家变得更加全球化并且接纳这种变化。
（未完待续，敬请期待）
下期预告：
《心理新青年》对话美国普林斯顿大学
Susan Fiske教授：
苏珊费斯克博士专访（下篇）：
学术生涯是一场马拉松长跑
《心理新青年》著名心理学家系列专访之第八期，我们将继续邀请到美国普林斯顿大学Susan Fiske教授，与大家娓娓道来在她成就非凡的学术生涯背后有哪些不为人知的艰辛故事，以及她对中国社会心理学领域广大学生学者的建议和祝福。精彩内容，敬请期待！
4. 采访团队
胡晓檬
清华大学心理系博士后
研究领域：文化与道德、全球化与文化变迁
吴珏彧
美国普林斯顿大学心理系博士生
研究领域：群体动态、行为决策、社会影响以及行为改变、行为经济学
王浥濛
美国耶鲁大学心理系博士生
研究领域：潜意识行为、消费行为、跨文化决策、具身认知
孙卉
美国西北大学商学院博士生
研究领域：计算认知科学、知识社会学、社会网络、组织理论
徐以安
美国东北大学心理系博士生
研究领域：跨文化视野下的认知偏误、心理本质主义、法律心理学
徐艺姗
美国加利福尼亚州执照临床心理学博士
研究领域：临床心理干预、睡眠失调、压力应对、自我同情与关怀
杨涛
清华大学心理系博士后
研究领域：认知年老化、跨文化、情绪与认知神经科学
姜聪佼
美国佛罗里达大学博士生
研究领域：态度、认知、女性
5. 特别声明
本次著名心理学家专访由《心理新青年》编辑部制作呈现。具体分工如下：吴珏彧、胡晓檬起草提纲、吴珏彧实施采访，吴珏彧、胡晓檬转录文本、编辑修改，Susan Fiske博士审校，编辑部其他成员王浥濛、徐以安、孙卉、徐艺珊、杨涛、姜聪佼对此文亦有贡献。本文知识产权归《心理新青年》编辑部所有，未经授权，严禁转载。如需转载，请联系编辑部商讨授权事宜。
6. 关于我们
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