Ö4. 访谈 Hanna Umin - 荒原神谕，灰烬之息
'Barren Oracle, Breath of Cinders', Photography by Hudson Kendall & Ben Sang
[*注：创作 - Hanna Umin, Urbain Checcoroni，安装 - Ben Sang(Final Hot Desert)，展览策划 - Underground Flower]
[*Artwork by Hanna Umin, Urbain Checcoroni，Installed by Ben Sang (Final Hot Desert)，Exhibition organized by Underground Flower ]
Hanna Umin: Urbain 用 Reference 和谜语说话，他是一个完全可以用想象和隐喻交谈的人，可以很快地发展出一种流利的孪生语。我想我可以说这个项目的起源就是这种孪生语，我们在 Instagram 聊天中互相交流图像，分享我们对材料的热情，及我们发现的垃圾碎片。他受邀与Final Hot Desert 和 Underground Flower 一起展览，并慷慨地将这个项目介绍给我，我们成为二人组。
Urbain speaks in references and riddles, he is someone who can converse entirely in image and metaphor, with whom one can quickly develop a fluent kind of twin-speech. I suppose I could say the project’s genesis was this twin-speech, we were weaving images with each other over instagram chat, sharing enthusiasm over materials and bits of trash we’d found. He was invited to show with FHD and UF, and graciously extended it to me as well, for a duo.
我们最初设想了一个迷朦黄昏的景象，一个无止境哀悼的冷酷冥府，一个缓慢旋转的中点，一种世界之外的世界，一个幻影，并建造了一套自我运作的机械精神来产生引力场。我们在制作这些作品时始终连贯链接——穿透或反射光线的材料，天空颜色或地面颜色的特质，希望与景观互动，好像这一切都由同一把笔刷绘制而成。这有助于将碎片嵌入其中，就像一个蒙受神恩的陌生人走进房间时，已经归化了，对事物的曾经现在有种眩晕感，对时间性与情感的起源点感到困惑。
We initially envisaged a twilight tableau, a cool netherworld of infinite mourning, a slow pivot. A kind of world outside of worlds, an apparition, and we built a set of self operating machine-spirits to generate the field. We were in consistent contact with each other as we made the pieces, with an emphasis on materials which pull light through or reflect it, accents of sky colors or ground colors, The strategy was to interact with the landscape, as if all were painted with the same brush. It served to embed the pieces within it, like when a charismatic stranger enters a room, already naturalised, and you have this sense of vertigo about how things were and what things are, confusion about temporality and the point origin of an affect.
轮子的意象不断出现，辐条绕轴旋转，成群如合唱。我们决定将展览稿写成一片融合的杂音以仿效场景。Torre、Val、Ben 和我一起创作了稿子，其中也融合了 Urbain 的想象力。
In the group chat, this image of a wheel kept coming up, spokes spinning around an axis, as well as the grouping’s resemblance to a chorus. We decided to write the press release as a cacophony of melded voices to follow suit. Torre, Val, Ben and I wrote it together, with imagery from Urbain seeping in.
场外是不可预料的，维度从暮光转移到白日。当我们看到这些文字时，它就像某种未知的力量在推动滚轮，保持相互关联而加速为净化的怒火。推进，破裂，狂喜。合唱团吟颂起圣歌。
ÖÖÖ：你的作品似乎以人类命运里的一种宏大的悲剧感作为底色。衰老，死亡，渴求，求而不得，潦草解决的性欲，都在以残酷而粗暴的姿态自寻解脱。你在你的艺术创作中，用诗意的词句虚构过一些怎样的角色？
Your artwork seems taking a grand tragic mood in the fate of mankind as undertone. Aging, dying, craving, unattainable longing, negligently solved sexual desire, they are all seeking relief in certain brutal and bulk manners. What characters have you ever fictionalised in your arts along with poetic words?
Hanna Umin：我喜欢悲剧作家的作品，因为它与现代化的诠释方式是如此截然不同，有时几乎相互抵触。它没有人物背景和建筑，而强调行为与因果关系；与现实主义、以及我们在当今文学中被训练寻找的个性特质和动机所相对。它是非写实的。一个角色或动机的更复杂的细节只能通过演绎推断。情感很少被直接表达为“我感觉”，它们表达为一种抽象的人性宣言。这是一种深沉地转述，就好像他们（作家们）只是在描述一件身外之物。如果这些宣言中没有那么多灵敏的诗意性，我会觉得它更像是自动机器，更像是被掏空了，而非具体化的现象。因此，在堤岸溃决的情感，和不拥有主观情感的品德之间，有一个有趣的转折 - 不以之为中心的“不拥有”，和不支配它的“不拥有”。
我将我的展览和作品考虑为对象的集合，它们以无数种类的方式相互连接，如果有人想要从中寻找一条清晰可读的共同主线，也许会感到失望。我想要它们是空心的，一件艺术品被拴在它所生成而又超越它自身的东西上，我对消除这种指称性很感兴趣。戏剧化情节，尤其是非写实的戏剧化情节，会加强材料和所指对象之间的对比。最终目的是——激起一阵战栗。
I think of my shows and pieces as sets of objects which link to each other in a myriad of ways, heterogeneous modes of connection, such that if one were to look for a legible common thread, one would be disappointed. I want it hollow. An artwork is tethered to the something-other-than-itself which it generates, I’m interested in how one can sink that referentiality. Melodrama, particularly stylised melodrama, ups the stakes, heightens the contrasts in these relationships between material and referent. The goal is to hit a faint shudder.
我将作品名称、展览名称与写作视作一个集合中的不同对象，因此使用角色时将更少虚构化，而更多地分门别类。有时我的作品显得比较直接。当它们更字面化时，它会以某种方式压缩到自己的语义中。幽默当然也会融入其中。
I see the work titles, show titles, writing as objects in one assemblage amongst others, so utilising characters is less fictionalisation and more categorization, though my work has become more direct at times. When it’s more literal, the hope is that the work will be so heavy-handed it’ll somehow crunch into its own semantics. Humor certainly comes into it as well.
‘Phaedra’
有一些我通常运用于创作的名字(类别)，用得最多的是 Creon、Phaedra 和 Aloeids。我将 Creon 用于专制而脆弱的作品，将 Phaedra 用于狂喜、死亡、附带牺牲的作品，用 Aloeids 制作那些表现出革命的反常威胁的作品。这与指代的不同功能有关。
These are general categories applied to irregular constructions, they mostly fit but not entirely. The ones I’ve used most are Creon, Phaedra, and Aloeids. I use Creon for brittle authoritarian pieces, I use Phaedra for swooning, deathly, collateral sacrifice, and I use Aloeids for pieces which present a perverse threat of revolution. I suppose it’s to do with function.
ÖÖÖ：古希腊悲剧与神话故事中，巨大的结局，致命的高潮，启发了你创作的主要色调。古希腊悲剧中描写的冲突往往是难以调和的，坚强不屈的性格和英雄气概，受到变幻无常的宿命的动摇，走向瓦解与沉默。观者见证并感同身受人性的苦难，而从神性的悲悯之出口中盘旋而出。你是否试图在你的艺术作品中创造人性与神性的转换？
You are inspired by ancient Greek tragedy and myth. Those events with marvellous finality, deathly climax, became one of the main influences to your creation. The conflicts narrative in ancient Greek tragedies are often difficult to reconcile, heroic spirits and unyielding faiths are shaken by fickle destiny, falling into an absolute disintegration and silence. While audience witnessed and felt the suffering from humanity, they are also spiralling from the exit of gods sorrow. Did you attempt to create transition between humanity and divinity in your artwork?
Vulcan, Mars, Venus
Hanna Umin：神话是一种灵活累积的东西，它像语言一样游牧地飘荡，承载着氏族与城邦口述的历史，随着运用而变化，随着贸易路线而移动。悲剧暂时将它们冻结为一个具体的、既定的信条。自此，它激发了人类现实中的一连串突发事件。众神虽是主要的参与者，但你很难弄清楚命运的起源，意志的态度，决定论在任何已知点上都存在。它们更多由神话而支配，而非上帝。
Myth is a flexible cumulative thing, it drifts nomadically like language, takes on the oral histories of clans or city-states, changes with use, moves with trade routes. The tragedies momentarily freeze them as a concrete, established doxa. From that, it spurs a cascade of contingencies seated in human reality. The gods are major players, but it’s hard to put your finger on the place fate is coming from, or what the attitude towards will, determinism really is at any given point. They’re more at the mercy of myth than at the mercy of a god.
我对神性感兴趣，但不是众神或上帝，因为他们太人性了。我不认为神性与任何可被辨认的人类有太大关系，这很巧妙，因为每个人也有一部分[不是]可辨认的人类。——伫立于无星之夜的黑玛瑙柱，高深莫测的“单子” ，或者，一场永恒的回归。
* “单子”是反映世界秩序的基本个体物质
I’m most certainly interested in divinity, but it’s not the gods or a God, they’re too human. I don’t think the divine has much to do with anything identifiably human, which is handy, because there is a part of every person which is not identifiably human either. An onyx column in starless night, an impenetrable monad, or, paradoxically, an infinite regress.
那更像是一种与地平线齐平的神性，或许用“崇高”是一个更好的形容。在魅力和祛魅，诱人幻觉与阴郁现实之间，通过一个不和谐的区域而扭曲。形而上学？本体论？我会在这些无常中找到兴趣。我想古老的文本可能是这种境况的“虹吸管”，不一定是因为内容——而是因为它对传统的阐述模式的抵制性，因为所有可能终成泡影的巨大鸿沟。与其说是在深渊上搭桥，不如说是踏出绝境。
It’s more of a horizontal sense of divinity, sublimity might be a better word. It’s this potential to do a warp-bend, back and forth, between enchantment and disenchantment, seductive illusion and the bleakly concrete, that warp-bend through an area of dissonance. A metaphysical? Ontological? interest in what can be found in all these oscillations. I see ancient texts as a possible siphon for this, not necessarily because of the content—though that can be a tool—but because of its resistance to conventional modes of interpretation, because of all the wide gaps you can fall through. It’s less bridging an abyss, more like stepping off the precipice!
ÖÖÖ：在一些作品中，肉身与欲望，性与愉悦，似乎成为了苦难的短暂逃离口，又不断在否认与屈服中斡旋。你的悲剧情景中是否存在某些象征着救赎的线索？
Hanna Umin：性、肉体、欲望确实是一种逃离，但在极度固定的微观注视下，焦点将变为宿命论。当我听到自己作为写作者的声音，就像穿过水一样，它有节奏，是非写实的，那种低沉的搏动，与那些各种亢奋内容一齐跳动，这是一种反压的平行。你不能在水下呼吸，你感到——窒息。
Swayed Figure (Holderlin)
不！没有救赎！对我没有，对你也没有。这是一个绝对的世界。绝不妥协。最终是看着这些绝对物像染液一样渗出。它必须留在原地。强制停止。我们必须抵制那种传统的叙事弧线，那种习惯性的冲动。
我想这就是“不救赎”的正式理由。这也是个人的。所有“健康”、“全面”、“体面”的事情都让我有扎眼的感觉。在这个叙事弧中，有一种构建体验与情感状态的动力，没有阴影就看不到光，每一朵云都包含一线希望。坏只有在好的语境中有价值，它只拥有相对的功能价值，所以降低了它的效力。但也许坏是神圣的。也许皮下的蠕虫是神圣的。也许那块结痂，是通往一个重大而未知之处的天窗。摘掉它。
I guess that’s the formal reasoning for “no redemption”. It’s personal, too. I have a chip on my shoulder about all things “healthy”, “well-rounded”, decent. There’s this drive to frame experiences, emotional states within this narrative arc, you know, you couldn’t see light without shadow, every cloud has a silver lining. The bad only has value contextualised within the good, it only has value seen as a function for what is deemed acceptable, so you undercut. But perhaps the bad is divine. Perhaps the worm under your skin is holy. Perhaps that scab is a trapdoor to a place of unknowable magnitude. Pick it.
所以我的作品没有救赎，但有同理心。同情极端的心境，同情凡人的软弱。慈悲必须是真实的——如果我给你希望，那我就是在撒谎。
也有愉悦。或者至少是精力旺盛。一切都是恶意的，少年的，满身覆盖污垢的。构建这些对象的主要模式是一系列平衡的结构，这些结构故意偏移，模式中一个错误的交错，一条错误的电线，匹配原本互相对立的一对，接着是下一个。这些是高度故意的选择，一方面需要一种深思熟虑的强度，另一方面需要一种直觉的自发性。在意这些无生命的东西，时间与爱。
There’s also joy. Or exuberance at least. Everything is spiteful, juvenile, covered in boogers. The primary mode for building these objects is a sequence of balanced structures which are intentionally offset, one wrong stagger in a pattern, an errant wire, a pair which match but should be mirrored, and on to the next. These are highly intentional choices which require a meditative sense of intensity on one hand, an intuititve rush of spontaneity on the other. There is care for these inanimate things, time, love.
因此，这种做法的一个关键问题可能是：“我是否把我的爱放在了正确的地方？”
A pivotal query for this practice might thus be: “Am I putting my love in the right place?”
ÖÖÖ：你的写作对你的作品意味着什么？这种并置像是连通了两种抽象物间的隧道，互为谜语，互为谜底。
What does your writing mean to your artwork? That juxtaposition trigs a feeling of a tunnel between two abstractions, a mystery to the other.
Hanna Umin：两个抽象之间的隧道，我喜欢这个说法！你已经为我回答了我的问题。此外的任何延伸都是无关紧要的，这是个完美的诠释。
A tunnel between two abstractions, I love that! You’ve answered my question for me. Any expansion on that would be extraneous, it’s the perfect explanation. Let’s leave it here.
《Creon's End》你创造的洞穴的意象是什么？
“Creon’s End” is attached with a text from a conversation of you and Bergman Salinas.
“The Oedipus trilogy begins with a pestilence and ends with a cave. Delany’s Dhalgren begins with an implied disaster and ends the same: caves are throughout.… ”
A psychological symbol prototype of cave can be mysterious, primitive, the collective unconsciousness of mankind.
What are your images of Cave in “Creon’s End”?Hanna Umin：希腊悲剧在一个圆形剧场里举行，有一个舞台，最多三个演员和一支合唱团。舞台后面是一个景屋，一个装饰过的小屋或帐篷，被用作更衣室和演员的进出点。如果有布景，那也很简单，场景变化很少。舞台上从不描绘暴力行为，而是由信使或证人带到角色身上。悬念和反应产生了更大的影响：这是一场关于后果的奇观。
Greek tragedy took place in an ampitheatre, there was a stage, a maximum of three actors with a chorus. Behind the stage was a skene, a decorated hut or tent which served as a dressing room, exit and entry point for the actors. If there was a set at all, it was simple, with very few changes in scene. Acts of violence were never depicted onstage, instead they were carried to the characters by messengers or witnesses. It was believed that the suspense and reaction gave greater impact: it’s a spectacle of consequences.
这个悲剧（Antigone）在一个洞穴中结束，从某种物理意义上说，它是叙事结束的地方，但 Creon 真正的最后一幕，结束于它的嘴边。大部分悲剧都与决定因素、对国家或家庭的忠诚、对公民或神圣的忠诚、死亡仪式的配置有关。这是法律与自然之间的冲突，不仅仅是有关价值定义，还有人们思考和生活的方式。这些冲突伴随着调和与处理能力的象征。
The tragedy (Antigone) ends in a cave, in the sense that it is the site of the narrative’s conclusion, but the final scene with Creon takes place at its mouth. Much of the tragedy is about parameters, loyalty to the state or family, loyalty to the civil or the sacred, allocation of death rites. It’s a clash between law and nature, not just what is valued but the way these things are thought through and lived. It’s about conflicts which accompany the mitigation and management of the symbolic.
我在光天化日之下看到它。这是一个加缪时刻，它是刀片上闪烁的切光，被曝光。这是一个符号过于真实的时刻。
I see it in broad daylight. It’s a Camus moment, it’s sheared light glinting off a blade, exposure. It’s the point when a symbol is far too real.
ÖÖÖ：你的个展“你的命运”五月份在 mcg21xoxo 画廊（日本松户）展出，展览背后有什么特别的故事吗？
Your solo show “Your fate” was presenting in gallery mcg21xoxo (Matsudo, Japan) on May(1-29th), any special stories behind the exhibition?
Hanna Umin：我想到的是，这属于这种情况：提前很长时间计划展览，而生活恰好赶上了展览的内容。
What comes to mind is that this was one of those situations where you plan a show far in advance, and your life coincidentally catches up with the content of the exhibition.
当我收到展览邀请函时十分惊喜，这里和日本之间大约有 12 小时的时差，但我是一个早起的人，幸运的是我喝了半杯咖啡，Taka 刚好在线，所以我立马向他发起视频聊天。不得不说，从醒来，到与世界另一端的陌生人一起策划展览，真是太超现实了！但我之前看过 Taka 的作品，我们的快速谈话中，他让我印象深刻，他有条不紊，有很强的远见，温和而冷静。有时我只需要遵循直觉：我尊重并能和这种性格类型的人合作得很好，所以哪怕展览在日本，我也不打算放弃这个机会。问题是——我们唯一可以安排的截止日期是在我的纽约个展后大约一个半月。
“你的命运”是我前面提到的那些语义直接而“令人不快”的创作之一，语气生硬而谴责，中心作品是“The Graaee”，三个在大地边缘生来便已苍老的老妪。我通常会整合那些难以被识别性质的垃圾碎片。但这次我用了更粗暴的方法，我使用了更清晰完整的垃圾。它主要由三个破碎的相框、一个破碎的后视镜、变形的眼镜和一圈旧的抗抑郁药瓶组成。像木槌一样击撞。
“Your Fate” is one of those direct semantic crunch moves I mentioned earlier, the tone is blunt and accusatory, the central piece uses the Graeae, three crones at the edge of the earth who were born old. I usually only integrate trash which is battered or shattered just past recognition, but for this heavy-hand approach I used legible trash. It’s primarily composed of three broken picture frames, a broken rearview mirror, bent eyeglasses, and a circlet of used bottles of antidepressants. Hits like a mallet.
当然，既然我不愿意在纽约的展览上妥协我的受虐癖，我也不愿意在日本的展览上妥协我的受虐癖。当然，尽管疫情我也还是要工作。所以当我开始制作 “The Graeae ”的时候，我已经精疲力竭了，我甚至没有精力去加剧焦虑，这对像我这样的人来说是一种罕见且令人困惑的状态。悬挂在框架上方的各个灰色环氧树脂条不是模制的。它们被各自塑造成一种形式，每一种都有自己复杂的织物、肠道、蠕虫图案。这就是我想到的。“你的命运”，被无尽的悲哀蠕虫所累。
ÖÖÖ：人体上的部分经常出现在你的作品中，譬如阴毛、足茧、唾液、指甲等。它们可能会让观者引发一些奇怪的心理体验，一种匿名的窥探、扭曲的亲密性。从某种意义上说，它们在情景中具备挑衅性质吗？你如何应用这些身体“垃圾”材料？
Objects on human body are often appeared in your works, such as pubic hair, foot callus, spit vials, fingernail clippings. They may be able to create anonymous spying, distorted intimacy with audience. Are they attributed to be provocative In a sense? How do you apply these body “trash” materials?
Iphimedeia, 2021
Hanna Umin：我在文本中使用自传材料，就像我做垃圾一样：这是最接近的假设。我拿起它，使用它，它显然是真实的，谁知道它来自哪里，在幻觉中防腐。垃圾已经不是以前的样子了；我也不是。我在工作中使用阴毛、大块的足部组织、唾液小瓶、指甲屑。它的直接目的是暗示某些东西在跃跃欲试，对那些陈词滥调来说非常奇怪。恶作剧！但对我来说，主要的吸引力是一种部分和整体的东西：当你看到一缕头发或一团唾液时，你唯一真正知道的是它不是你的。这是一件非常私密的事情，但它有一种匿名感被移除了。
I utilise autobiographical material in text like I do trash: it's the closest available hypothetical. I pick it up, I use it, it's clearly real, who knows where it came from, embalmed in illusion. The trash isn't what it once was; neither am I. A parallel is my use of pubic hair, chunks of foot callus, spit vials, fingernail clippings in my work. Its immediate purpose is to cue something revved up, defensively, adamantly weird to the point of cliche. Mischief! But the main draw for me is a parts-and-wholes kind of thing: when you see an errant strand of hair or a glob of spit, the only thing you really know is that it's not yours. It's this very intimate thing, but there's a sense of anonymity to it, removed.
偷窥癖，这是个很好的点。不仅仅是因为这些有机材料的个人化性质，而因为它显然是某人做出的选择。这不是一个偶然融入整体的笔触。一块脚皮是你专门移除、保存和放置的东西。是的，看这足部皮肤有一种反常的神秘感。我困在这种少年唯我主义的焦虑中，这都是强制性的现实测试。
Voyeurism, that’s a good point. Not just because of the personal nature of the organic materials, but because it is clearly a choice which someone made. It’s not an accidental brushstroke which assimilated into the whole. A chunk of foot skin is something you remove, save, and place specifically. Yes, there’s a sense of perverse mystery in viewing this foot skin. I’m very much stuck in this juvenile solipsistic angst, it’s all compulsive reality testing.
ÖÖÖ：你希望通过你的作品传达什么？
What do you hope to convey through your work?
既是紧握又是释放的东西，一方面它被挤压，另一方面它在蔓延，每个部分都有一个不可见的部分，形状可能像蘑菇或圆环。当你沿着圆环的表面走时，从底部开始，这条曲线可以永远扩展，你跟着它走，它会拉入不可接触、环绕着负极的墙壁。这种收缩和扩散，向上运流，然后下沉，变平。很难说这是一种认知还是躯体的感觉，它位于脖子后面。这是片刻的断绝，不羁的自我。
Something which is both a clench and a release, on one part it’s pinched, on the other it spreads, an invisible part to each piece which is shaped like a mushroom cloud or a torus perhaps. When you follow the surface of a torus, from the bottom you have this curve which could expand forever, you follow it out, it pulls into walls which don’t touch, which surround a negative. A mushroom cloud has this pinch and a spread, it shoots up to convection and it sinks down, levelling. It’s hard to say wether this is a cognitive or somatic sensation, it’s located behind the neck. It’s momentary severance, unmoored selfhood.
我认为人们很难完全地，或者至少是公开他们自己雄心勃勃的想法，因为这与具备企业家视角的自我密切相关。或者他们害怕听起来十足地荒谬和伪知识分子，就像我让听起来的那样。怪人。因此，艺术要么退缩到易接近的日常的角落，要么被束缚在一种学术超独特性的感觉中。而有些地方正在发生变化——一种变革的涌浪。我想成为其中的一员，所以我很高兴与你们交谈。我想成为一个谦虚的自己，有着不谦虚的想法。
I think that people have had trouble being fully, or at least openly ambitious with their ideas, as such things are so entwined with a perception of entrepreneurial ego. Or they are afraid of sounding downright ridiculous and pseudointellectual, as I likely sound. Wacko. So art has either shrunk away to the corner of the accessibly quotidien, or it’s tethered itself to.a sense of academic hyperspecificity. There are pockets where that’s been changing, a reactionary swell. I’d like to be a part of that, so I’m glad to be speaking with you. I’d like to be a modest self with immodest ideas.
ÖÖÖ：你能和我们分享一些你最近最喜欢的电影、书籍和音乐吗？谢谢！
Can you share some your recent favourite movie, book and music to us? Thank you!
悲剧 - 我曾把欧里庇得斯的《The Heracleidae》 扔在一边，因为它看起来有点沉闷。结果它让我开怀大笑，但我只会把它推荐给那些从程序语义中获得极大乐趣的 Nerd 们。我想说 Heracleidae 和 Hippolytus， 都是欧里庇得斯在希腊悲剧中写的奇怪例子。Heracleidae 的结尾是怪异的，因为它基于雅典法律中晦涩难懂的扭转。而 Hippolytus 则是真正毫无意义的，像是试图钻进……蜡上的水。
tragedy: I put The Heracleidae, Euripides, to the side for a a while, as it looked a pinch dull. Turns out it made me laugh out loud, but I’d only suggest it for those nerd-brained types who get a kick out of procedural semantics. I’d say Heracleidae and Hippolytus, both Euripides, are excellent examples of the resistant strangeness in greek tragedy. Heracleidae is just flatly bizarre at the end, it leans on obscure twists in Athenian law, whereas Hippolytus is truly senseless. But an attempt to bore into either… water on wax.
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ÖÖÖ
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