TED演讲 | 我们能够避免老化
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| 简介
剑桥大学的研究员奥布里德格雷Aubrey de Grey认为，衰老只不过是一种疾病——一种可治愈的疾病。根据奥布里德格雷Aubrey de Grey，人类的衰老主要体现在7个方面，所有这一切都可以得以避免。
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18 minutes is an absolutely brutal time limit,
十八分钟是一个非常紧的时间限制，
so I'm going to dive straight in, right at the point
因此我直入主题，讲重点的，
where I get this thing to work.
我将马上开始。
Here we go. I'm going to talk about five different things.
好，我要谈五个不同的事情。
I'm going to talk about why defeating aging is desirable.
一，我要谈谈为什么抗老化是可行的。
I'm going to talk about why we have to get our shit together,
二，我要谈谈为什么我们必须打起精神，
and actually talk about this a bit more than we do.
多讨论这个课题，并且发觉我们应该指望战胜老化。
I'm going to talk about feasibility as well, of course.
当然，三，我也会谈谈战胜老化的可行性。
I'm going to talk about why we are so fatalistic
四，我要谈谈为什么我们在人类抗老化上采取的行动这么的认命，
about doing anything about aging.
以为都是注定的。
And then I'm going spend perhaps the second half of the talk
然后，第五，我也许在这个节目的下半段的时间谈谈
talking about, you know, how we might actually be able to prove that fatalism is wrong,
我们如何证明这个对战胜老化漠不关心以及以为是注定的心态是错误的，
namely, by actually doing something about it.
并且实际上做点什么事来纠正这个错误。
I'm going to do that in two steps.
这第五点，我会用两个步骤来谈论。
The first one I'm going to talk about is
第一个步骤是
how to get from a relatively modest amount of life extension --
如何从一个相对适中的延长寿命治疗科技 -
which I'm going to define as 30 years, applied to people
我这就把它定义为可延长三十年寿命，
who are already in middle-age when you start --
并且在已经是中年年龄的人开始应用 –
to a point which can genuinely be called defeating aging.
直到一个能真正被称为战胜老化问题的程度。
Namely, essentially an elimination of the relationship between
也就是说，实质上消除了你多大年纪，
how old you are and how likely you are to die in the next year --
以及你在下一年死去或
or indeed, to get sick in the first place.
生病的可能性之间的关系。
And of course, the last thing I'm going to talk about
最后一件事第五件事情，
is how to reach that intermediate step,
第二个步骤我要谈的是如何实现过度步骤，
that point of maybe 30 years life extension.
那个能给我们每一个人延长三十年寿命的治疗科技。
So I'm going to start with why we should.
好，我就从为什么要延长人类的寿命开始。
Now, I want to ask a question.
现在，我想问一个问题。
Hands up: anyone in the audience who is in favor of malaria?
观众席里有谁赞成疟疾是有利的？请举手。
That was easy. OK.
好，这很简单。
OK. Hands up: anyone in the audience
行。行。请不知道疟疾
who's not sure whether malaria is a good thing or a bad thing?
是好事还是坏事的人举手？
OK. So we all think malaria is a bad thing.
好。所以，我们都认为，疟疾是一件坏事。
That's very good news, because I thought that was what the answer would be.
这是一个非常好的消息，因为我原以为这就是答案。
Now the thing is, I would like to put it to you
现在我希望你们想一想
that the main reason why we think that malaria is a bad thing
我们认为疟疾是一件坏事主要的原因，
is because of a characteristic of malaria that it shares with aging.
是因为疟疾和老化有着共同的特征。
And here is that characteristic.
那个特征就是两者都杀死人。
The only real difference is that aging kills considerably more people than malaria does.
唯一真正的区别是，老龄化杀死的人数比疟疾杀死的多许多。
Now, I like in an audience, in Britain especially,
现在，我喜欢观众，尤其是在英国的观众，
to talk about the comparison with foxhunting,
比较一下老化和打猎狐狸。
which is something that was banned after a long struggle,
打猎狐狸是是经过长期斗争
by the government not very many months ago.
不久前被政府禁止的活动。
I mean, I know I'm with a sympathetic audience here,
我的意思是，虽然我知道富有同情心的观众应该大多数都反对打猎狐狸，
but, as we know, a lot of people are not entirely persuaded by this logic.
但我们知道，很多人并不是完全被这个逻辑说服。
And this is actually a rather good comparison, it seems to me.
在我看来，这其实和老化是一个不错的比较。
You know, a lot of people said, "Well, you know,
你知道，很多郊外的人说：“你们这些
city boys have no business telling us rural types what to do with our time.
住在城市的人没有权利告诉我们什么活动可以做什么东西不能做。
It's a traditional part of the way of life,
这是我们住在郊外的人的传统生活方式的一部分，
and we should be allowed to carry on doing it.
我们应该有权力继续做它。
It's ecologically sound; it stops the population explosion of foxes."
这是促进生态健全的，它控制了狐狸数量爆涨。”
But ultimately, the government prevailed in the end,
但是，政府最终占了上风，
because the majority of the British public,
因为大多数的英国公众，
and certainly the majority of members of Parliament,
还有国会多数成员，
came to the conclusion that it was really something
得出的结论，就是这打猎狐狸
that should not be tolerated in a civilized society.
是一个文明社会所不能容忍的活动。
And I think that human aging shares
我认为，人类衰老也有这些特点，
all of these characteristics in spades.
它是一个不能容忍的活动。
What part of this do people not understand?
这有什么难明白的？
It's not just about life, of course --
这当然不只是生命，
it's about healthy life, you know --
这也是有关可以健康的生活下去。
getting frail and miserable and dependent is no fun,
因为无论人们觉得死亡是否好玩是否应该容忍，
whether or not dying may be fun.
身体越来越衰弱，悲惨地依赖别人一点都不好玩。
So really, this is how I would like to describe it.
因此，其实这就是我想要对它的人类衰老描述。
It's a global trance.
这是一个全球性恍惚。
These are the sorts of unbelievable excuses
这是人们对老龄化作出了
that people give for aging.
种种令人难以置信的借口。
And, I mean, OK, I'm not actually saying
而且，我的意思是，好吧，我不是在说
that these excuses are completely valueless.
这些借口是完全没有价值。
There are some good points to be made here,
这些借口也有一些好的积极方面。
things that we ought to be thinking about, forward planning
比如说我们应该思考的种种问题，有规划些，
so that nothing goes too -- well, so that we minimize
来尽量减少我们在战胜老化路途上
the turbulence when we actually figure out how to fix aging.
的不必要的动荡。
But these are completely crazy, when you actually
但只要如果你真正衡量它们，
remember your sense of proportion.
这些借口都是完全疯了！
You know, these are arguments; these are things that
你知道，这些借口的论点
would be legitimate to be concerned about.
是合理的，值得去关注。
But the question is, are they so dangerous --
但问题是，这些论点有没有那么危险?
these risks of doing something about aging --
战胜老化的风险
that they outweigh the downside of doing the opposite,
有没有高过
namely, leaving aging as it is?
不理会人类老化的代价？
Are these so bad that they outweigh
难道这些修复老化的风险如此糟糕，
condemning 100,000 people a day to an unnecessarily early death?
比每天超过十万人面对早死的命运还糟糕？
You know, if you haven't got an argument that's that strong,
你知道，如果你还没有比这一个说法更强的论点，
then just don't waste my time, is what I say.
那么就不要浪费我的时间。这是我的看法。
Now, there is one argument
话虽如此，有一种观点有些人认为，
that some people do think really is that strong, and here it is.
确实是很强，我们就在这儿讨论一下。
People worry about overpopulation; they say,
人们担心人口过多，他们说，
"Well, if we fix aging, no one's going to die to speak of,
“好吧，如果我们战胜老化，没有人类死亡可言，
or at least the death toll is going to be much lower,
或至少是死亡人数变得低得多，
only from crossing St. Giles carelessly.
变得只有不小心越过圣吉尔斯河而死。
And therefore, we're not going to be able to have many kids,
因此，我们不需要有很多孩子，
and kids are really important to most people."
可是孩子对多数人很重要。”
And that's true.
这是事实。
And you know, a lot of people try to fudge this question,
你知道，很多人试图捏造这个问题，
and give answers like this.
并给予这样的答案。
I don't agree with those answers. I think they basically don't work.
我不同意这些答案。我认为它们根本行不通。
I think it's true, that we will face a dilemma in this respect.
我认为这是真的，我们会在这方面面临两难。
We will have to decide whether to have a low birth rate,
我们将必须决定是否有一个低生育水平，
or a high death rate.
或者高死亡率。
A high death rate will, of course, arise from simply rejecting these therapies,
拒绝这些战胜老化治疗，死亡率就会变高，
in favor of carrying on having a lot of kids.
当然，在这种情况下我们就能生许多孩子。
And, I say that that's fine --
我觉得这没问题 –
the future of humanity is entitled to make that choice.
人类的下一代，有权做出这个选择。
What's not fine is for us to make that choice on behalf of the future.
不正确和不应该的是我们现在就替下一代的做出这个选择。
If we vacillate, hesitate,
如果因为我们犹豫，
and do not actually develop these therapies,
而不开发这些疗法，
then we are condemning a whole cohort of people --
那么我们就等于判了我们的子孙一个不能永远活着的命运。
who would have been young enough and healthy enough
本来因为他们够年轻，够健康，
to benefit from those therapies, but will not be,
可以获益于这些疗法。
because we haven't developed them as quickly as we could --
但因为我们的犹豫，没有尽快开发这些疗法 –
we'll be denying those people an indefinite life span,
我们等于不让这些人有更长的寿命，
and I consider that that is immoral.
我认为这是不道德的。
That's my answer to the overpopulation question.
这是我对人口过多的问题的回应。
Right. So the next thing is,
好，接下来的是，
now why should we get a little bit more active on this?
为什么我们应该在这一方面积极点？
And the fundamental answer is that
最根本的答案是，
the pro-aging trance is not as dumb as it looks.
亲老化恍惚并不像它看起来的那么笨。
It's actually a sensible way of coping with the inevitability of aging.
它其实是在应对无法避免的老化时的一个很明智的办法。
Aging is ghastly, but it's inevitable, so, you know,
老化是可怕的，但它是不可避免的，所以，
we've got to find some way to put it out of our minds,
我们必须想尽办法把这想法从我们头脑中忘记，
and it's rational to do anything that we might want to do, to do that.
理性地去做我们想要做的事情来改变。
Like, for example, making up these ridiculous reasons
例如，人类会想出这些荒谬的原因
why aging is actually a good thing after all.
来解释其实老化是件好事。
But of course, that only works when we have both of these components.
当然，这些荒谬的原因的起因有两个连接部分
And as soon as the inevitability bit becomes a little bit unclear --
只要命中注定那个部分在我们的脑海中没那么的肯定，
and we might be in range of doing something about aging --
我们就可以开始对战胜老化采取行动，
this becomes part of the problem.
这是老化问题的一部分。
This pro-aging trance is what stops us from agitating about these things.
这亲老化恍惚常常妨碍人们解决老化这个问题。
And that's why we have to really talk about this a lot --
这就是为什么我们一定要继续提出以及谈论这个课题，
evangelize, I will go so far as to say, quite a lot --
我甚至会说 –
in order to get people's attention, and make people realize
为了吸引人们的注意力，使人们认识到，
that they are in a trance in this regard.
他们在这方面的恍惚，
So that's all I'm going to say about that.
关于这个话题我就说到这里。
I'm now going to talk about feasibility.
我现在要谈的是第三点，打败老化的可行性。
And the fundamental reason, I think, why we feel that aging is inevitable
其根本原因，我想，为什么我们认为老化是不可避免的，
is summed up in a definition of aging that I'm giving here.
是可以用我在这儿给老化的定义作为总结。
A very simple definition.
这是一个非常简单的定义。
Aging is a side effect of being alive in the first place,
老化是一种活着的副作用，
which is to say, metabolism.
也就是说，新陈代谢的副作用。
This is not a completely tautological statement;
这并不是一个完全同义重复的声明，
it's a reasonable statement.
它是一个合理的声明。
Aging is basically a process that happens to inanimate objects like cars,
老龄化基本上是一个过程，发生在无生命的物体如汽车，
and it also happens to us,
也发生在人类的身上，
despite the fact that we have a lot of clever self-repair mechanisms,
尽管我们的身体有很多聪明的自我修复机制，
because those self-repair mechanisms are not perfect.
因为这些自我修复机制还不完善。
So basically, metabolism, which is defined as
基本上，新陈代谢，就是说
basically everything that keeps us alive from one day to the next,
所有为了让我们能够每一天活着所维持的种种化学过程，
has side effects.
有副作用。
Those side effects accumulate and eventually cause pathology.
这些副作用会不断的积累，最终导致病理。
That's a fine definition. So we can put it this way:
这是一个不错的定义。因此，我们可以这样表达,
we can say that, you know, we have this chain of events.
我们可以说，大家都知道，我们有着这一系列事件。
And there are really two games in town,
而且根据大多数人，对于推迟衰老，
according to most people, with regard to postponing aging.
只有两种方法。
They're what I'm calling here the "gerontology approach" and the "geriatrics approach."
这两种方法就是老年学和老年医学。
The geriatrician will intervene late in the day,
老年医学医生会在一个人老化过程的后段，
when pathology is becoming evident,
病理越来越明显的时候，
and the geriatrician will try and hold back the sands of time,
做治疗来尽量阻止老化时间
and stop the accumulation of side effects
和副作用积累
from causing the pathology quite so soon.
并且阻止那么快就造成不可避免地死亡。
Of course, it's a very short-term-ist strategy; it's a losing battle,
当然，这是一个非常短暂的战略，是一个败仗，
because the things that are causing the pathology
因为导致病理不可避免地死亡的这些副作用
are becoming more abundant as time goes on.
会随着时间的推移越来越多。
The gerontology approach looks much more promising on the surface,
老年学的方法在表面上看起来更充满希望具发展前景，
because, you know, prevention is better than cure.
因为你们也知道，预防胜于治疗。
But unfortunately the thing is that we don't understand metabolism very well.
但不幸的是，我们对新陈代谢的理解非常少。
In fact, we have a pitifully poor understanding of how organisms work --
事实上，我们对生物体的了解少的可怜 –
even cells we're not really too good on yet.
甚至细胞，我们都不是很懂。
We've discovered things like, for example,
连对细胞如何操作的
RNA interference only a few years ago,
基本知识，例如核糖核酸机能失常，
and this is a really fundamental component of how cells work.
在仅仅几年前,我们才发现它。
Basically, gerontology is a fine approach in the end,
基本上，如果我们要讨论在我们一生中能用到的延长寿命的治疗，
but it is not an approach whose time has come
老年学以后将会是一个很好的方法，
when we're talking about intervention.
但它的时机未到。
So then, what do we do about that?
然后呢，这怎么办呢？
I mean, that's a fine logic, that sounds pretty convincing,
我的意思，这是一个很好的逻辑，
pretty ironclad, doesn't it?
听起来非常有说服力的，不是吗？
But it isn't.
但事实并非如此。
Before I tell you why it isn't, I'm going to go a little bit
在我告诉你为什么不能之前，
into what I'm calling step two.
我要谈谈我所谓的第二步。
Just suppose, as I said, that we do acquire --
我们假设，如果正如我所说的，
let's say we do it today for the sake of argument --
我们 -假设说今天 –
the ability to confer 30 extra years of healthy life
就拥有能够给现在已是中年，假设说五十五岁的人，
on people who are already in middle age, let's say 55.
多三十年的健康寿命的治疗方法。
I'm going to call that "robust human rejuvenation." OK.
我称这为‘强健人类再生’ 。好。
What would that actually mean
那么实际上这对于现在不同年龄的人们，
for how long people of various ages today --
或者相等地，当这些治疗方法到达时
or equivalently, of various ages at the time that these therapies arrive --
已是不同年龄的人有什么影响呢？
would actually live?
他们会活多久些呢？
In order to answer that question -- you might think it's simple,
你可能会认为回答这个问题很简单，
but it's not simple.
但它并不简单。
We can't just say, "Well, if they're young enough to benefit from these therapies,
我们不能只是说：“好吧，如果他们足够年轻，得益于这些治疗方法，
then they'll live 30 years longer."
那么他们就会活多三十年的时间。”
That's the wrong answer.
这是错误的答案。
And the reason it's the wrong answer is because of progress.
而错误的原因是因为进步。
There are two sorts of technological progress really,
对于我们这方面的治疗，
for this purpose.
科学进步有两种。
There are fundamental, major breakthroughs,
第一种是突破性的进步，
and there are incremental refinements of those breakthroughs.
然后还有第二种就是不断的在那些突破性的进步上做出改良和提高它们的有效率。
Now, they differ a great deal
这两种科学进步所需的
in terms of the predictability of time frames.
时间的预测度有很大的不同。
Fundamental breakthroughs:
我们很难预测
very hard to predict how long it's going to take
多久才会有
to make a fundamental breakthrough.
突破性的进步。
It was a very long time ago that we decided that flying would be fun,
人类很有可能在很多年前就想在天空上飞行了，
and it took us until 1903 to actually work out how to do it.
可是要等到一九零三年才发现到底怎么飞行。
But after that, things were pretty steady and pretty uniform.
可是这之后，人类飞行的科技就很有步骤地发展下去。
I think this is a reasonable sequence of events that happened
我认为这是一个很合乎情理才导致了
in the progression of the technology of powered flight.
动力飞行的科技进展。
We can think, really, that each one is sort of
我们可以想象这些科技发展的每一步都是
beyond the imagination of the inventor of the previous one, if you like.
上一步的研发人所想不到的。
The incremental advances have added up to something
比起原先每次都递进增值
which is not incremental anymore.
有进展。
This is the sort of thing you see after a fundamental breakthrough.
在每个科学突破性的进步后，您都会看到这些有步骤性的发展。
And you see it in all sorts of technologies.
而且在很多科技上都是这样。
Computers: you can look at a more or less parallel time line,
比如说电脑，和飞行科技也很类似，
happening of course a bit later.
只是发生的时间不同罢了。
You can look at medical care. I mean, hygiene, vaccines, antibiotics --
您也可以看一看医药保健科技，比如说卫生，疫苗，抗生素，
you know, the same sort of time frame.
也有着一样的发展时间表。
So I think that actually step two, that I called a step a moment ago,
因此，我认为其实两个步骤，我刚才称为一个步骤，
isn't a step at all.
并不完全是一个步骤。
That in fact, the people who are young enough
事实上，很年轻的人
to benefit from these first therapies
会从这些实验治疗方法受益，
that give this moderate amount of life extension,
能使人们的生命适量延长，
even though those people are already middle-aged when the therapies arrive,
即使这些人已经中年，当这些治疗方法来到
will be at some sort of cusp.
人们还可以尝试治疗方法。
They will mostly survive long enough to receive improved treatments
他们多数活得足够长来接受改进的治疗方法，
that will give them a further 30 or maybe 50 years.
从而使他们多活30年甚至50年。
In other words, they will be staying ahead of the game.
换句话说，他们将领先于老化的速度。
The therapies will be improving faster than
治疗法比起治疗法中存在的缺陷
the remaining imperfections in the therapies are catching up with us.
改进得更快。
This is a very important point for me to get across.
这是我想说的非常重要的一点。
Because, you know, most people, when they hear
因为，很多人一听到
that I predict that a lot of people alive today are going to live to 1,000 or more,
我推测很多现在活着的人将会活到一千或更多年以上，
they think that I'm saying that we're going to invent therapies in the next few decades
他们都在想，哦，我们将会在这几十年内发明
that are so thoroughly eliminating aging
延缓老化的治疗方法，
that those therapies will let us live to 1,000 or more.
研究如何活到一千年甚至更多的治疗方法。
I'm not saying that at all.
我并不是这么说。
I'm saying that the rate of improvement of those therapies
我说的只是这些延长寿命的治疗方法的
will be enough.
发展速度会足够使人们继续活下去。
They'll never be perfect, but we'll be able to fix the things
这些治疗方法我想永远都不可能完美，
that 200-year-olds die of, before we have any 200-year-olds.
但我们将可以在还没有两百岁的人之前就研究到如何治疗两百岁的人所死于的病理因素。
And the same for 300 and 400 and so on.
接下来，我们就在还没有三，四百岁的人之前就研究到如何治疗三，四百岁的人所死于的因素。
I decided to give this a little name,
我称这为“长寿逃逸速度”，
which is "longevity escape velocity."
要逃离死亡，长寿治疗方法必有快速的发展，叫逃逸速度。
Well, it seems to get the point across.
这是个很容易明白的名称。
So, these trajectories here are basically how we would expect people to live,
这就是我们可以期待
in terms of remaining life expectancy,
在余下的预期寿命，
as measured by their health,
以他们的健康来衡量，
for given ages that they were at the time that these therapies arrive.
到了一定年龄，相对应的治疗就相应而出。
If you're already 100, or even if you're 80 --
如果你已经100岁，或者你是80岁，
and an average 80-year-old,
平均80岁，
we probably can't do a lot for you with these therapies,
我们可能很难为您做些什么，
because you're too close to death's door
因为您的时间不多了。
for the really initial, experimental therapies to be good enough for you.
所以最初的，实验性疗法对你已经不起作用了。
You won't be able to withstand them.
你将无法避免老化。
But if you're only 50, then there's a chance
可是，如果您才五十岁的话，
that you might be able to pull out of the dive and, you know --
您很有可能像我刚刚描述的那个样子摆脱了老化去世的问题。
eventually get through this
您不但可以活的更久些，
and start becoming biologically younger in a meaningful sense,
某种意义上
in terms of your youthfulness, both physical and mental,
你的青春，从身体和头脑上，你的生命变得更加年轻，
and in terms of your risk of death from age-related causes.
你死于和老化有关的病症的几率也会降低。
And of course, if you're a bit younger than that,
当然，如果你还不到五十岁的话，
then you're never really even going
您更有可能永远摆脱了老化去世的问题，
to get near to being fragile enough to die of age-related causes.
而不会虚弱因老化而生成的疾病死亡。
So this is a genuine conclusion that I come to, that the first 150-year-old --
因此，这是我得到的一个真正的结论，就是说第一位能够活到一百五十岁 –
we don't know how old that person is today,
我们不知道该人现在多老了，
because we don't know how long it's going to take
因为我们不知道第一代
to get these first-generation therapies.
疗法要多久才会出现。
But irrespective of that age,
但无论是年龄，
I'm claiming that the first person to live to 1,000 --
我声称的第一人会活到一千年的人 –
subject of course, to, you know, global catastrophes --
当然，排除全球性灾难 - 实际上，
is actually, probably, only about 10 years younger than the first 150-year-old.
大概只有比我说的那位活到一百五十岁的人年轻十岁左右。
And that's quite a thought.
很令人值得想一想的结论吧。
Alright, so finally I'm going to spend the rest of the talk,
好，接下来我要用这个讲座所剩下的时间，
my last seven-and-a-half minutes, on step one;
我的七个半分钟来谈谈我所谓的第一个步骤，
namely, how do we actually get to this moderate amount of life extension
就是我们如何得到这第一批延长寿命的适中治疗，
that will allow us to get to escape velocity?
使我们可以达到长寿逃逸速度？
And in order to do that, I need to talk about mice a little bit.
而为了做到这一点，我需要说一点点关于老鼠的事。
I have a corresponding milestone to robust human rejuvenation.
我有一个对强健人类再生相应的里程碑，
I'm calling it "robust mouse rejuvenation," not very imaginatively.
我不是很富有想象力地称它为强健老鼠再生。
And this is what it is.
这是什么呢？
I say we're going to take a long-lived strain of mouse,
就是我们要采用一种长寿的老鼠，
which basically means mice that live about three years on average.
就等于平均可以活三年左右的老鼠。
We do exactly nothing to them until they're already two years old.
我们完全没有碰过它们，直到它们已经两岁。
And then we do a whole bunch of stuff to them,
然后我们对它们做了一大堆的东西，
and with those therapies, we get them to live,
用那些治疗方法使它们延长寿命，
on average, to their fifth birthday.
想办法让他们平均活到五岁。
So, in other words, we add two years --
因此，换句话说，我们开始把这些老鼠治疗后，添加了两年寿命 –
we treble their remaining lifespan,
已经是它们剩余寿命
starting from the point that we started the therapies.
的三倍。
The question then is, what would that actually mean for the time frame
接下来的问题是，到底什么时候，
until we get to the milestone I talked about earlier for humans?
我们讨论的这些才能用在人类身上呢？
Which we can now, as I've explained,
我们现在可以，正如我已经解释过，
equivalently call either robust human rejuvenation or longevity escape velocity.
把它称为强健人类再生，或长寿逃逸速度。
Secondly, what does it mean for the public's perception
第二，从我们得到的第一只老鼠时开始，
of how long it's going to take for us to get to those things,
公众对多久我们才能获得这些东西，
starting from the time we get the mice?
对这些科技的发展有什么影响？
And thirdly, the question is, what will it do
第三，问题是，它对多少人想要避免老化的人们起作用？
to actually how much people want it?
这些科技有什么影响呢？
And it seems to me that the first question
我的看法是，
is entirely a biology question,
第一个问题完全是生物学的问题，
and it's extremely hard to answer.
这是非常难回答。
One has to be very speculative,
一个人必须非常投机，
and many of my colleagues would say that we should not do this speculation,
和我的许多同事会说，我们不应该做这种推测，
that we should simply keep our counsel until we know more.
我们应该简单地保持沉默，直到我们了解更多。
I say that's nonsense.
我觉得这是一派胡言。
I say we absolutely are irresponsible if we stay silent on this.
保持沉默，绝对是不负责任的。
We need to give our best guess as to the time frame,
我们需要给我们最好的猜测有时间框架，
in order to give people a sense of proportion
以便使人们有个概念，
so that they can assess their priorities.
使他们能够评估他们的优先事项。
So, I say that we have a 50/50 chance
所以，我说，从我们应用强健老鼠再生的科技
of reaching this RHR milestone,
的十五年内，我们有百分之五十的机会
robust human rejuvenation, within 15 years from the point
实现强健人类再生科技
that we get to robust mouse rejuvenation.
这个重要的里程碑。
15 years from the robust mouse.
强健老鼠再生的科技应用的十五年内，
The public's perception will probably be somewhat better than that.
人们的看法可能会变好。
The public tends to underestimate how difficult scientific things are.
因为人们往往低估的科学进步的困难性。
So they'll probably think it's five years away.
因此，他们很可能会认为只需五年。
They'll be wrong, but that actually won't matter too much.
他们可能是错误的，但实际上这不太重要。
And finally, of course, I think it's fair to say
最后，当然，我认为公众对于老龄化
that a large part of the reason why the public is so ambivalent about aging now
的看法这么的矛盾的主要原因，
is the global trance I spoke about earlier, the coping strategy.
是我刚才谈到的全球恍惚的应对策略。
That will be history at this point,
这将是历史性的一刻，
because it will no longer be possible to believe that aging is inevitable in humans,
因为公众将不再认为老化是人类不可避免的，
since it's been postponed so very effectively in mice.
因为它已经非常有效地在小老鼠体内被推迟。
So we're likely to end up with a very strong change in people's attitudes,
因此，我们很可能会看到人们的观念有了巨大变化，
and of course that has enormous implications.
而这将会具有极大的影响。
So in order to tell you now how we're going to get these mice,
为了现在要告诉你我们要如何得到这些老鼠，
I'm going to add a little bit to my description of aging.
我要补充一点我对老化的描述。
I'm going to use this word "damage"
我会用“损害”这个词来表示
to denote these intermediate things that are caused by metabolism
所有由新陈代谢中阶段造成的东西，
and that eventually cause pathology.
而最终导致不可避免的死亡。
Because the critical thing about this
因为这个关键的是，
is that even though the damage only eventually causes pathology,
尽管这些损害只有在最终才会造成不可避免的死亡，
the damage itself is caused ongoing-ly throughout life, starting before we're born.
它们是从我们出生之前就开始累积的东西，我们整个人生它们都不断累积。
But it is not part of metabolism itself.
但是这些损害不是新陈代谢的一部分，
And this turns out to be useful.
这一点对我们来说是有益的。
Because we can re-draw our original diagram this way.
因为这样我们可以重新绘制我们的原始图。
We can say that, fundamentally, the difference between gerontology and geriatrics
我们可以说，老年学和老年病学之间根本区别就是，
is that gerontology tries to inhibit the rate
老年学试图抑制新陈代谢，
at which metabolism lays down this damage.
这些“损害”累积的速度。
And I'm going to explain exactly what damage is
我等一下会准确地解释我所谓
in concrete biological terms in a moment.
的“损害”在生物学里指的是什么。
And geriatricians try to hold back the sands of time
老年病学呢，就试图阻止
by stopping the damage converting into pathology.
这些“损害”所带来的的后果，
And the reason it's a losing battle
比如说死亡。这是一个败仗，
is because the damage is continuing to accumulate.
因为损害只会继续积累。
So there's a third approach, if we look at it this way.
如果我们这样看的话，有第三种办法。
We can call it the "engineering approach,"
我们可以把它叫做工程方法，
and I claim that the engineering approach is within range.
我声称工程方法是在人类的科技，技术范围之内。
The engineering approach does not intervene in any processes.
该工程方法不会干预任何过程。
It does not intervene in this process or this one.
它不会干预这个过程，也不干预这一个。
And that's good because it means that it's not a losing battle,
这很好，因为这意味着这不是一个败仗，
and it's something that we are within range of being able to do,
并且它是在我们现在的范围之内能够做到的事情，
because it doesn't involve improving on evolution.
因为它不涉及对人类进化改善。
The engineering approach simply says,
该工程方法只是表示，
"Let's go and periodically repair all of these various types of damage --
“我们定期修复所有的这些不同类型的损害 –
not necessarily repair them completely, but repair them quite a lot,
他们不一定完全修复，
so that we keep the level of damage down below the threshold
但修复的足以让我们继续避免
that must exist, that causes it to be pathogenic."
一个会造成导致死亡或生病的程度。”
We know that this threshold exists,
我们知道这个门槛程度的存在，
because we don't get age-related diseases until we're in middle age,
因为我们只有当我们在中年时才会得到与年龄有关的疾病，
even though the damage has been accumulating since before we were born.
即使损害已经从我们诞生时就开始累积了。
Why do I say that we're in range? Well, this is basically it.
为什么我说，在人类近期的技术范围内呢？这基本上就是原因。
The point about this slide is actually the bottom.
这图片的重点在底部。
If we try to say which bits of metabolism are important for aging,
如果我们试图说新陈代谢的那个部分才是对老化过程有着重要的影响，
we will be here all night, because basically all of metabolism
那我们可能要在这里呆一整晚，
is important for aging in one way or another.
因为基本上新陈代谢的每个组件都对老化有影响。
This list is just for illustration; it is incomplete.
这个列表仅仅是一个例子，它是不完整的。
The list on the right is also incomplete.
右边的列表也一样不完整。
It's a list of types of pathology that are age-related,
它们只是一种与年龄
and it's just an incomplete list.
有关的病的列表。
But I would like to claim to you that this list in the middle is actually complete --
但这中间的我主张是完整的列表，
this is the list of types of thing that qualify as damage,
所有代谢副作用有资格被称为“损害”，
side effects of metabolism that cause pathology in the end,
最终会导致病理
or that might cause pathology.
或可能造成病理类型。
And there are only seven of them.
而这列表只有七个。
They're categories of things, of course, but there's only seven of them.
当然，这七个是类别，但只有七个。
Cell loss, mutations in chromosomes, mutations in the mitochondria and so on.
细胞损失，染色体突变，在线粒体基因突变等。
First of all, I'd like to give you an argument for why that list is complete.
首先，我想给你们解释一个为什么我认为这份列表是完全的。
Of course one can make a biological argument.
当然，我们可以使用生物学的角度来争论。
One can say, "OK, what are we made of?"
可以说，好，我们是什么做的？
We're made of cells and stuff between cells.
我们是由细胞和细胞间的东西。
What can damage accumulate in?
“损害”可以累积在那里？
The answer is: long-lived molecules,
答案是，长期存在的分子里，
because if a short-lived molecule undergoes damage, but then the molecule is destroyed --
因为如果一个短暂寿命的分子遭到破坏，它将会在寿命完了后被销毁 –
like by a protein being destroyed by proteolysis -- then the damage is gone, too.
就像蛋白质被水解摧毁，累积的损害也一起被销毁了。
It's got to be long-lived molecules.
所以“损害”累积的地方一定是很长寿命的分子里。
So, these seven things were all under discussion in gerontology a long time ago
因此，这七个东西，都是由老年学士很久以前就讨论过了。
and that is pretty good news, because it means that,
这是相当好的消息，因为这意味着，
you know, we've come a long way in biology in these 20 years,
尽管我们在这二十年里对生物学有着很大的成就，
so the fact that we haven't extended this list
这份列表还只有七样东西是一个非常好的迹象，
is a pretty good indication that there's no extension to be done.
因为它显示它已不可再增加了。
However, it's better than that; we actually know how to fix them all,
这个消息比你们想象的更好，
in mice, in principle -- and what I mean by in principle is,
因为我们在原则上知道如何在老鼠里解决所有这些七样东西，我所谓的原则指的是，
we probably can actually implement these fixes within a decade.
我们或许可以真正实现在十年内这些修复治疗。
Some of them are partially implemented already, the ones at the top.
其中有些部分已经落实了，尤其是在顶部的。
I haven't got time to go through them at all, but
我没有时间一个一个的解释，
my conclusion is that, if we can actually get suitable funding for this,
但我的结论是，如果我们能够得到适合的资金，
then we can probably develop robust mouse rejuvenation in only 10 years,
那么我们或许可以在只有十年内成功发展强健的大规模人类再生，
but we do need to get serious about it.
但我们确实需要认真想想它。
We do need to really start trying.
我们需要真正开始尝试。
So of course, there are some biologists in the audience,
对于观众里的生物学家，
and I want to give some answers to some of the questions that you may have.
你们可能有一些问题，我会回答你们。
You may have been dissatisfied with this talk,
你可能对这个讲座有些不满，
but fundamentally you have to go and read this stuff.
但你必须去阅读这些内容，
I've published a great deal on this;
我已经刊登了对老化很多的资料；
I cite the experimental work on which my optimism is based,
而且我就凭着这些研究为基础对人类老化治疗科技持乐观态度，
and there's quite a lot of detail there.
里头的细节还有很多。
The detail is what makes me confident
这些细节使我对我在这里预测的
of my rather aggressive time frames that I'm predicting here.
相当挑战性的时间表更加有信心。
So if you think that I'm wrong,
如果你觉得我错了，
you'd better damn well go and find out why you think I'm wrong.
我希望你能看了这些资料以及研究报考后再来解释为什么你认为我是错的。
And of course the main thing is that you shouldn't trust people
最主要的是你不应该相信
who call themselves gerontologists because,
自称是老年医学的人，
as with any radical departure from previous thinking within a particular field,
因为在任何领域里
you know, you expect people in the mainstream to be a bit resistant
如果有激进的思想变化，主流的人一定有点抵抗
and not really to take it seriously.
而且不认真的对待它。
So, you know, you've got to actually do your homework,
所以，你必须真正做好准备工作，
in order to understand whether this is true.
才能了解这是否属实。
And we'll just end with a few things.
我们在结束前就讲讲几件事。
One thing is, you know, you'll be hearing from a guy in the next session
有一件事就是，你将会在下届会议听一个家伙说起以前，
who said some time ago that he could sequence the human genome in half no time,
当他说他可以测序人类基因组时，人们是怎么的回答他。
and everyone said, "Well, it's obviously impossible."
每个人都说：“这是不可能的。”
And you know what happened.
可是你也知道，
So, you know, this does happen.
这确实发生了。
We have various strategies -- there's the Methuselah Mouse Prize,
我们有不同的策略，有玛士撒拉奖，
which is basically an incentive to innovate,
这基本上是一个鼓励创新，
and to do what you think is going to work,
做你认为是可行的，
and you get money for it if you win.
如果成功的话，你就可以赢钱。
There's a proposal to actually put together an institute.
还有一个计划建议组织一个机构，
This is what's going to take a bit of money.
可是这将会需要点钱。
But, I mean, look -- how long does it take to spend that on the war in Iraq?
我的意思是，你看我们在伊拉克战争上耗这么久浪费了多少钱？
Not very long. OK.
不会再久吧。好吧。
It's got to be philanthropic, because profits distract biotech,
这些研究的钱的来源最好是慈善，因为利润会分散生物技术研究公司的注意力，
but it's basically got a 90 percent chance, I think, of succeeding in this.
但我认为它基本上有着百分之九十的机会成功。
And I think we know how to do it. And I'll stop there.
因为我们已经知道应该怎么做。我就说到这里。
Thank you.
谢谢您。
OK. I don't know if there's going to be any questions
好。我不知道大家有没有问题，
but I thought I would give people the chance.
但我想我会给他们机会。
Since you've been talking about aging and trying to defeat it,
既然你在谈论老龄化，并试图战胜它，
why is it that you make yourself appear like an old man?
那为什么你看上去就像一位老人呢？
Because I am an old man. I am actually 158.
因为我是一个老人。其实我是已经是一百五十八岁。
Species on this planet have evolved with immune systems
这个星球上的物种进化了免疫系统，
to fight off all the diseases so that individuals live long enough to procreate.
以对抗各种的疾病，使个人活到足够生育的年龄。
However, as far as I know, all the species have evolved to actually die,
不过，据我所知，所有的物种都进化到实际会死亡，
so when cells divide, the telomerase get shorter, and eventually species die.
因此，当细胞分裂时，端粒酶变得越来越短了，最终物种死亡。
So, why does -- evolution has -- seems to have selected against immortality,
那么，为什么进化过程似乎已选定‘针对’永存不朽？
when it is so advantageous, or is evolution just incomplete?
或者那只是进化过程还不完整？
Brilliant. Thank you for asking a question
好！谢谢你问一个我可以
that I can answer with an uncontroversial answer.
用一个没有争议的答案来回答你。
I'm going to tell you the genuine mainstream answer to your question,
我要告诉你主流思想的答案来回答你的问题，
which I happen to agree with,
我也恰巧同意这个答案。
which is that, no, aging is not a product of selection, evolution;
那就是，不，老化不是一个进化过程的后果，
is simply a product of evolutionary neglect.
只是进化过程所忽视的后果。
In other words, we have aging because it's hard work not to have aging;
换句话说，我们会老化，因为没有老化的话比较难；
you need more genetic pathways, more sophistication in your genes
你需要更多的遗传途径，你的基因需要变得更复杂，
in order to age more slowly,
以便让你老的比较慢些，
and that carries on being true the longer you push it out.
而且你越想要把老化推迟，你就越需要面对这些难题。
So, to the extent that evolution doesn't matter,
因此，到进化不重要的程度，
doesn't care whether genes are passed on by individuals,
不在乎是个体，
living a long time or by procreation,
或则生活的很长的一段时间，
there's a certain amount of modulation of that,
或则靠生育种种方法来把基因传给下一代，有一定的调节，
which is why different species have different lifespans,
这就是为什么不同物种有不同的寿命，
but that's why there are no immortal species.
但是这就是为什么没有永存的物种。
The genes don't care but we do?
这些基因并不关心，但我们关心？
That's right.
是的。
Hello. I read somewhere that in the last 20 years,
您好。我听说在过去的二十年中，
the average lifespan of basically anyone on the planet has grown by 10 years.
基本上这个星球上的人的平均寿命增长了十年。
If I project that, that would make me think
如果以这个资料推断，如果我没有在我的摩托车上发生任何事故，
that I would live until 120 if I don't crash on my motorbike.
我将能够活到一百二十岁。
That means that I'm one of your subjects to become a 1,000-year-old?
这意味着，我将会变成你所谓能够活到一千年研究课题之一？
If you lose a bit of weight.
如果你瘦一点儿。
Your numbers are a bit out.
你的数据有点出入。
The standard numbers are that lifespans
标准的数字是，
have been growing at between one and two years per decade.
寿命已经在每十年增长一至两年。
So, it's not quite as good as you might think, you might hope.
因此，它不是你觉得或希望的那么好。
But I intend to move it up to one year per year as soon as possible.
不过，我打算尽快将它快速发展到每年寿命多一年。
I was told that many of the brain cells we have as adults
我被告知，许多我们成人的脑细胞，
are actually in the human embryo,
实际上在胚胎里是就有了，
and that the brain cells last 80 years or so.
而脑细胞能活八十年左右的时间。
If that is indeed true,
如果事实的确如此，
biologically are there implications in the world of rejuvenation?
在生理的角度看，对再生的世界会有什么影响？
If there are cells in my body that live all 80 years,
如果在我身体的所有细胞，
as opposed to a typical, you know, couple of months?
可以活到八十年，而不是一个典型的在两个月就死去的细胞？
There are technical implications certainly.
当然，这是技术问题。
Basically what we need to do is replace cells
基本上我们需要做的是取代大脑
in those few areas of the brain that lose cells at a respectable rate,
的几个领域的细胞的流失率，
especially neurons, but we don't want to replace them
尤其是神经元，但我们不想比
any faster than that -- or not much faster anyway,
那流失率更快地取代任何细胞 –
because replacing them too fast would degrade cognitive function.
因为更换地太快会降低认知功能。
What I said about there being no non-aging species earlier on
我刚刚说的没有不老化物种
was a little bit of an oversimplification.
是有点过于简单化。
There are species that have no aging -- Hydra for example --
有些物种没有老化。例如水螅 –
but they do it by not having a nervous system --
因为他们没有一个神经系统 –
and not having any tissues in fact that rely for their function
也没有任何用于老化的的细胞
on very long-lived cells.
却有长寿的细胞组织。
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