斯洛文尼亚《Poiesis》：彼得·塞莫利奇专访中国诗人殷晓媛

Original 百科诗派百科诗派

2021年9月，斯洛文尼亚诗人、“詹科诗歌奖”和“普雷舍伦基金会奖”（即斯洛文尼亚“国家文学艺术奖”）得主、大型文学刊物《Poiesis》现任社长彼得·塞莫利奇对百科诗派创始人、中国诗人殷晓媛进行了专访，并在《Poiesis》上整版重磅刊登。

官网链接：

https://www.poiesis.si/pogovor-s-xiaoyuan-yin/

（全文较长，阅读大约需要30分钟。）

我来自斯洛文尼亚——一个200万人口的国家。在这样一个国家成为诗人或作家，自然比在一个人口超过10亿、且方言种类繁多的国家要容易许多。您能向读者们描述当下中国文学界的图景吗？它的组织形态是怎样的，在那里，年轻作家们如何确立自己？

1. I come from Slovenia, a country of 2 million people and achieving recognition as a poet, writer is – of course – much easier in a country with 2 million people than in a country with more than billion people and with more than just one language. Can you describe the Chinese literary scene, how it is organized, how a young author can assert himself?

写作本质上是一种个人行为而非集体事件：因此，很难以类似组织结构图的形式进行概括。如果我们试图将诗人群体的思想体系可视化为3D全息图，将会发现诗人同侪间的关联范式远复杂于芯片走线——不能武断地讲，这是一个所有人身不由己平行于同时代人的时代，写作在无意义的内卷中最终失控并沦为奔赴某处的庞大旅鼠群。更确切的比喻是“量子场”，一旦其中个体开始相互作用，便会瞬间丢失他们自身神秘莫测的"叠加态"，即所谓"退相干"。至于年龄，只要坚持唯文本论，本质上便是无关参数。诗歌与技能的区别在于，才华与经验并未体现出必然关联，尽管人们经常相信并刻意制造此类假象——因为若没有这一假设，人们对于诗歌价值的评估将会陷入无指导无标准的困局。

事实上，历史上有诸多杰出诗人英年早逝，包括中国古典诗歌体系中的曹植、王勃和李贺，而在世界范围内，雪莱、济慈、兰波等也不遑多让。从某种意义上说，他们是幸运的，恰好在完成天才之作之后，在尚未被读者市场的审美规训之前，适时地离开了。诗歌没有年功序列，比起定期存款，它更像风险投资：最终的赢家是那些以创意与远见制胜的冒险家。那么“年轻作家如何确立自己”？我的建议是：如果你期望挥洒人生活到极致，在年富力强时斩获自己在青史间的一席之地，而毫不在乎生命的物理长度，那你就应该尽你所能雄心勃勃、果敢、直白与离经叛道，走自己的路让别人说去吧；但倘若你也想享受退休后儿孙绕膝的天伦之乐，那做事的方式就需要更加优雅、谦逊和机智，并且！保持健康的体魄，直到你足够老(资格)，老到终于可以坦白你的果敢、直白与离经叛道。至于雄心，你早已实现了：活到批评和反对你的人都归于尘土。

Writing is basically an individual activity instead of a collective action: that is why nothing like an organizational chart ever exists. But if we had created a 3D hologram of poets’ minds, we would find connections between poets were not like chip lines, on which everybody runs involuntarily parallel to their peers, competing closely for nothing worthy and going off the “right track” like mass suicide of lemmings. It is a quantum field, where as soon as individuals begin interacting with one another, they lost their enigmatic “superposition” for a short while and this phase is called “decoherence”. As for age, it is an invalid parameter as long as poetry itself is venerated, because unlike technical work, brilliance does not grow proportionately with experience, though it is easy to pretend as if it were—otherwise people would get so confused with its valuation standards.

In fact. many genius poets died young, like Percy Bysshe Shelley, John Keats, Arthur Rimbaud, or Cao Zhi, Wang Bo and Li He in ancient China. In a sense they were lucky to die right after they finished their masterpieces and before being disciplined to cater the taste of the readers/ the market. Poetry is nothing about seniority, it is not fixed deposit but venture capital: the most innovative, visionary and adventurous takes all. How does a young author assert himself? If they want to live it to the full, “carpe diem”, gaining a place in history they deserve while young and passionate, without caring about dying in their prime, they should just be as ambitious, bold, straight-forward and unconventional as they can, go their own way and ignore everybody else; if they want to enjoy a happy retirement, maybe with lovely grandkids in the backyards, then they should do things in a more elegant, modest and tactful way and stay in good health, until they are old enough to be bold, straight-forward and unconventional like the first type… as for ambitions, he has realized it: outliving his critics and opponents

您的写作生涯开始于何时，早年对您影响最大的作家都有哪些？小时候经常阅读哪些诗歌或散文流派的作品?

2. How and when did you start to write, which authors influenced you at the beginning of your career as a writer and which literary genre attracted you first, poetry or prose …?

我理解这种普遍化的假设，即任何作家或诗人必定受到一位或多位堪称精神导师的人物跨越时空的指引与点化。当然实例并不鲜见，或者至少人们自认为这便是写作的必由之路，这种假设也解释了为何很多作家的早期作品都是某种意义上的“模仿游戏”（是的，我指的是Morten Tyldum执导的电影，其中‘Enigma’密码机具有三个转子：快速、中速和慢速，与我们的钟表如出一辙）。时间本身即是无法破解的代码，输入数据相同输出结果却绝无相似——甚至天壤之别——因而成功是不可复制的。要取得既定的成效，也可以经由完全不同的路径，此时结果便成了过程的向导。

人们通常高估作家与诗人对于前辈的崇敬与向往所构成的写作动机，各类回忆录中，也常加上这种朝圣式滤镜来合理化自己的起点。但客观上来说，“偶像崇拜”极少真正构成成长为作家或诗人的要因，因为崇拜本身意味着处于预设的不平等立场，而作家与诗人的使命必须首先是立志成为足以与他们分庭抗礼的人物。

在论资排辈的体系中，认为出生时间在后的作家和诗人从更早出生的同行处获得学养的裨益，这一结论的先决条件是：经验积累本身在写作中能发挥其作用——这对于科学领域自然不言而喻。但文学无绝对真理，如果说世间大部分事物发展的过程是“试错”，则文学无错可试，可以看到的只有“试而千古流芳”或“试而遗臭万年”这样现象层次的结果罢了。当然绝大部分情况下是“试而湮灭芸芸众生之间”。

于我而言，的确有那么一些在我人生中扮演着促成重要事件、点化抉择的角色，但并非那些文学大师。他们是在人生转折点上举棋不定时，机缘巧合地读到或了解到其生平与理论，并触发连锁反应的人物。2019年，我创作了一部名为《伯努利家族》的推理小说，之前的2018年则完成了另一部《看那个人：尼采×诺兰隔空对视》......我通常会将对我产生启示的人物嵌入作品之中反向输出。

I understand the ubiquitous hypothesis that every writer/poet must have one/multiple mentor(s) who has influenced them, transcending space and time. It is the case with a many, or at least they think so, which explains why before the personal style of a writer is established, it usually starts with "The Imitation Game"(Yes I am also referring to the Morten Tyldum movie, in which the Enigma Machine had three rotors; fast, middle and slow, reminding us of the hands a clock. Time itself is an uncrackable code because same inputs do not ensure similar outputs—on the contrary, they could vary astonishingly, that is why celebrities’ ways to success could not be copied; but similar outputs could stem from completely different inputs as if the result were leading the methods towards itself.)

The influence of favorite writers/poets is a motive usually overrated, even deliberately beautified in memoirs regarding the beginning of one’s writing, but to be honest, idolatry seldom becomes a sufficient reason for actually becoming a writer/poet, because admiration means feeling inferior, while you should be confident/determined to be his/her equal

A hypothetical seniority system assumes that writers/poets born later in time order learn from their preceding fellows but that conclusion is based on one premise: experience works,, which is true in the case of science. For literature, as there is no absolute truth, I would rather say everything is trial-and-error; and since nothing can be defined as an "error", it is just trial-and-prominence or trial-and-notoriety. Of course, trial-and-insignificance for most of the time.

As for me, there were people who catalyzed the important moves and wiser choices in my life but not all were precisely authors of any literary masterpieces but those great minds whose theories I came across by accident when I was not determined enough to make a decision, like the Bernoulli family, for whom I wrote a detective fiction under the same time in 2019, and in 2018 I wrote another fiction titled “Ecce homo: Friedrich Nietzsche×Christopher Nolan”… I usually embed these names in my works

您创作的文体类型非常丰富：诗歌、小说......在跨文体实验方面投入了极大的创造力。为何会选择这样的创作模式？

3. You write poetry and fiction, and dedicate much of your creativity to trans-genre writing. When and why did you decide on such an approach to creating literature?

和所有名词一样，首先，"类型"本身是一个人造概念。当你开始试图用大脑中的语义学映射来命名事物的内蕴本身时，隐秘的置换便发生了。名词的意指犹如手风琴的风箱周而复始不断被压缩或拓展，其定义随之发生嬗变。例如，科学“science”一词源于拉丁语"scientia"，但其原本的词义是"知识"。而艺术“art”则衍生于"artes"，原义是"技能"。类型"genre"一词的直接来源是法语，但更早的源流则存在于拉丁语中。在英语中，其字面意思是"艺术、音乐或文学作品的类别，其特征是特定的风格、体裁或内容"（韦伯斯特大辞典），在法语中"genre"也有"性别"(指名词词性)之义，例如在"En allemand, il y a trois genres grammaticaux de noms"这个句子中。这便尴尬地佐证了：语言的发展本质上是一部人类不断对词条进行曲解与操控的历史。

人类出于何种目的发明了各式各样的标签？标签是"去个性化"的象征（古斯塔夫·勒庞《乌合之众》语，1895年），它翻箱倒柜挖掘风马牛不相及事物的共同点，而后如获至宝地将它们塞进同一索引。馆藏学帮助图书管理员将图书分类，于是它们便不必散摊在桌面碍眼了。没有人会去关心《芬尼根守灵夜》和《国家地理：世界超自然现象发生地》为何并列在同一书架上。图书管理员不在乎——反正分类所节省的时间是显而易见的。强迫症作为人类独有的特权，象征着人们对于普遍存在的差异的期望——期望它们小到可以忽略不计。

"类型"的框架足以概括文学吗？九方皋[1]早已告诉我们，物象决非本质，无论以貌取人，或凭名编目，都不过是人类惰性的体现，而这种惰性是在享乐主义的滋养和人工智能时代的生活方式的沉浸中产生的。既然"类型"本就是假命题，自然"跨文体"的提法站不住脚。我们的调色盒小格子里盛放着各种颜色，但其实每种颜色又可细分为数百万种不同色调。正如我们所知，拥有三种视锥细胞的普通人类能看到约一百万种颜色，而“四色视者”则令人难以置信地能分辨出一亿种不同色调。当我们希望尽量简洁地描述文学作品时，无疑“类型”标签是一种便宜之策。当我进行长诗和《鸟类学版图》这样由100首以鸟类拉丁语学名为标题的大型组诗的创作时，我从未将它们视作二维的排列组合文字游戏，而是历练空间想象、击穿语言壁垒，拥抱非线性、构成序列与并置之物的契机。

“Genre” is a factitious concept as any noun is, the instant you replace the meaning domain of things with its semantical projection in your mind, the substituting process happens. The denotations of nouns change when classifications compress or expand like the bellows of an accordion. Like the word “science”, which came from the Latin word scientia, meant “knowledge”, while the word “art” from “artes” meant “skills”. The word “genre”, originating directly from French but can also be traced back to Latin, literally means “a category of artistic, musical, or literary composition characterized by a particular style, form, or content”(Merriam-Webster) in English, also means “gender”(of a noun) in French, like “En allemand, il y a trois genres grammaticaux de noms.” So genre is an embarrassing proof that language is a history of distortion and manipulation

Why do people invent labels? They are simply symbols of “deindividualization”( Gustave Le Bon «The Crowd: A Study of the Popular Mind«, 1895), referring to the habit of arbitrarily shoehorning a range of things into a same concept by exploring their commonalities. Archival studies helps a librarian to catalogue books so he does not pile up on his desk any more, though it is ridiculous that “Finnegans Wake” and “National Geographic Guide to the World's Supernatural Places” appear on the same shelf. He does not care because it saves him time. OCD is the prerogative of humankind as they expect differences, which always exist, to be unobvious enough for them to ignore

Should literary be epitomized in »genres«? Like what the color of Jiu-Fang Gao's stallion[1] told us, appearance is representation instead of essence, both judging a book by its cover and cataloging things by their visual forms are manifestations of human inertia, nurtured by hedonism and lifestyles of the A.I. era. »Trans-genre« is a pseudo proposition as »genre« is. We put different colors into compartments in a palettes but every color could be divided into millions of shades, as we know, trichromats can see about 1 million colors while tetrachromats may see an incredible 100 million colors. I would rather see “genres” as a practical expediency when we want to describe a literary work briefly. When I write book-length poems and series like “The Ornithological Atlas”, consisting of 100 poems, each titled after the scientific name of a bird, I never take it as a two-dimensional permutation&combination game with words but a chance to sharpen spatial imagination and drill through the walls of language itself, and embrace the nonlinear, the sequential and the juxtapositional.

[1]In the book Lieh Tzu(alias “Liezi”) there was a story: the Duke of Qin invited the renowned horse appraiser, Jiu-Fang Gao, to find him a “world-class horse”. He found a horse and told and the Duke the horse was a yellow mare. But it turned out to be a black stallion instead.

作为一位多语种作家。您如何看待自己以中文母语和以其他语种写作时的不同感受？弗拉基米尔·纳博科夫就是一个有趣的例子，他以英语创作随笔，却用俄语写诗......

4. You are also a multilingual writer. How do you see (feel) the difference between writing in Chinese and writing in other languages? Perhapes it is an interesting experience, the experience of Vladimir Nabokov, who wrote prose in English, but poetry in Russian …

我的第一份全职工作是在某国际IT集团担任日语翻译。交替传译中会发现很多有趣的语法现象。比如语序，“目の前が暗くなるのを靖子は感じた”（东野圭吾《嫌疑人X的献身》）这个句子，英语版要简短得多，“her vision dimmed” 。在日文版中，以"眼前一黑"开头，到了句尾才阐明整个句子是"靖子感觉"——句子结束之前你永远无法预料后面将会出现什么跌宕起伏。并且在日语句子里，否定词总是在末尾。口译就像开盲盒，你猜这个句子最后是肯定还是否定？另一个有意思的是德语，动词总在句子的末尾，所以首先映入眼帘的是一系列名词，你不禁焦急猜测主语究竟对它们做了什么？比如“Den kalten Ernst spürte er, die handwerkliche Nüchternheit, den trockenen Geschäftssinn, die an jedem Möbel, an jedem Gerät, an den Bottichen und Flaschen und Töpfen klebten.”（帕特里克·聚斯金德《香水：一个谋杀犯的故事》）。必须一口气看到末尾才知道究竟动词是什么。因此破译的玄机总在最后一刻。你必须等待连接主语和宾语的各种可能被证实，确保句子产生意义。

普通话作为中国的官方/外交语言，在文学语言占据了绝对的强势地位。由象形字演变而来，合成词众多，通常需要在拼接折叠中实现其意义(除非单字构成、有完整意义的词汇)，有时在英语中一个单词就可以表达。但最为便捷的是，在汉语中，你只需稍微变更语序或替换词语构件，就可以得到完全不同的概念。例如，"西游记"和"西厢记"同样由三个汉字构成，三分之二构件完全相同，但所指却是两个不同标的。

My first full-time job was as a Japanese-Chinese interpreter in an international IT group. Interactive interpretation brought many curious grammatical phenomena to light. Compared to the original sentence in Japanese "目の前が暗くなるのを靖子は感じた", its English version "her vision dimmed" was much shorter ("容疑者Xの献身", "The Devotion of Suspect X" in English, by Keigo Higashino) In the Japanese version, which started with "everything going dim before the eyes" and followed by "Yasuko felt", you could not predict how the sentence would end. And in Japanese sentences the "not" is always at the end so guess it is positive or negative? In contrast, the verbs come last in sentences in German, so it is not unusual that you see a series of nouns first and wonder what on earth the subject did with them... “Den kalten Ernst spürte er, die handwerkliche Nüchternheit, den trockenen Geschäftssinn, die an jedem Möbel, an jedem Gerät, an den Bottichen und Flaschen und Töpfen klebten.”(Das Parfum: Die Geschichte eines Mörders" by Patrick Süskind) “klebten”, which means “stuck”, did not show up until the last minute so you could not interpret the sentence before it reached the end, you needed to wait for the verb so you could join the subject and the object with it and make sure it makes sense.

Standard Chinese, also known as Mandarin, is the official&diplomatic language of China. Among all minority dialects, Mandarin is also the most-common-used literary language. Unlike English or many other European languages, there are no "words"(units of meaning) but only characters in Chinese, which means, you need to put together several characters to express a very simple word in English, But the good things is, by changing the order of them slightly or replacing one of the characters, you may get another completely different concept, For example, “西游记”and “西厢记” are both made up of 3 characters and 2/3 of the are identical but they refer to different classics and their meanings have nothing in common

您创建了百科诗派，并起草了《赫马芙洛狄忒宣言》。能向读者们介绍一下百科诗派与这一宣言的渊源吗？

5. You are the founder of the Encyclopedic Poetry School and the lead author of the Declaration of Hermaphroditic Writing. Can you introduce Poiesis readers to the school and the declaration and how the school and the declaration are related?

《赫马芙洛狄忒宣言》正式发表于《山花》（2016年第3期）。

“泛性别主义”，即“雌雄同体”，不仅是创意写作中破除性别壁垒的策略，并且是一种融合性学、心理学、社会学和人类学理论的系统机制。它指向超越性别界限、人格中阿尼玛/阿尼姆斯的开发。

我将2019年创作的复合文本《赫马芙洛狄忒迷宫》视作实现这一理念道路上的重要里程碑，是我对于极致对称、精妙平衡的追求的具象化。在这部作品中，世界被置于四大象限之中，与9×9数独交叠——在这部小说中，“1号玩家”不得不与隐藏在棋盘背后的邪恶A.I.进行交流。每新走一步棋，就必须根据在棋盘中的位置及设计，根据"要求"讲故事，否则会遭到电击。第一、第四象限为“雌半球”，必须相应讲述女性主人公的故事；第二、第三象限则为“雄半球”。同时，第一、第三象限为“光区间”，第二、四象限为“暗区间”。每一行与一种稀有动物相关联，而每一列指则指向一种地形。数独中出现的数字定义了故事的类型，8代表神反转，类似《调音师》的情节。例如，当棋子移入A5，男主人公必须即兴创作一个故事，发生在白天的山上，主角为具有蜜熊性格特征的男性(人类)或雄性(动物)。数独数字为1，代表“上帝视角”，因此他必须以全知的口吻讲述故事。文中，他讲述了一名男性登山者偶遇野人“夜帝”的故事。

“Declaration of Hermaphroditic” was published in one of the Top 10 literary magazines in China, “Mountain Flowers”(“Shan Hua”)(3rd Issue, 2016),

Hermaphroditism is not only an emancipated method of creative writing, but also a mechanism in which sexology, psychology, sociology and anthropology are combined. It refers to the infinite possibilities beyond gender barriers and self-exploration of the anima/animus.

In my cross-genre fiction “Hermaphroditic Labyrinth” (2019) was a milestone of my ideal, as it was designed with extreme symmetry and delicate balance, in which the world was divided into 4 quadrants overlapping with a 9×9 Sudoku—in the fiction Player 1 was talking to an evil AI behind the chessboard. Every time when a chess piece moves to a new square, he must tell a “right” story or get an electric shock. The story spends on the quadrant, the row and column, and the number. The 1st and 4th quadrants indicate a heroine while 2nd and 3rd a hero, 1st and 3rd for light while 2nd and 4th for darkness. Every row refers to an animal and every column a landform. Every number in the Sudoku system stands for a type of story, for example, an “8” refers to a story full of twists and turns (the “Andhadhun” type?) In the fiction, when a chess pieces moves to A5, our Play 1 had to improvise a story about someone(male) with potos flavus(kinkajou)’s characteristics, and it was supposed to happen in the mountains, during daylight, and as the number “1” stands for “God's Perspective”, he must tell the story in an all-knowing way. So Player 1 told the A.I. a story about a mountain climber witnessing a Yeti.

您是一位先锋诗人，而百科诗派在各个维度上都堪称先锋流派。您对于传统的态度是什么？这个问题我非常好奇，因为斯洛文尼亚和中国之间存在巨大差异。斯洛文尼亚诗歌诞生于浪漫主义时期（19世纪初），而中国诗歌则有着几千年悠久历史。这既是宝贵财富，也许对于作家们也是一种压力。

6. You are an avant-garde artist and in many ways the Encyclopedic Poetry School is an avant-garde project. What is your attitude to tradition? This question is very interesting to me because of the comparison between Slovenia and China – Slovenian poetry was born, as in so many Central European countries, in the Romantic period (at the beginning of 19. Century), while the Chinese poetry tradition dates back millennia. Such a tradition is an extraordinary treasure, but maybe it can also represent a certain burden for the author …

“传统”和“先锋”并非二元对立的概念。传统是一种信息池式的存在，因此“不要把婴儿和洗澡水一起扔掉”：在信息爆炸的时代，将我们需要之物从干扰项中分离出来至关重要——否则你会被淹没，感到筋疲力尽，像一个菜鸟司机被困在黄桷湾立交桥上。传统自有它的"重量"，它是历史的沉积，你可以选择把它视为负担，对抗它；也可以用它作为压载石，横渡知识之洋。须知一切新发现都基于众所周知的定律，即使最异想天开的实验也离不开前人发明的反应釜、射电望远镜和粒子加速器……所谓颠覆传统的写作，多数字词也出自传统词典，而非《阿凡达》中潘多拉星球居民的纳美语，或《降临》中外星人的圆形符号（及其周边生成的随机触手与墨迹）。衡量先锋与否的标准，并非能背离传统走多远，而是站在传统的肩膀上能够到多高。深度诞生于兼容而非排斥。它要求我们摒弃偏见，绘制出人类历史和意识形态的周期表。

在这里，让我与各位读者分享我的《鸟类学版图》系列组诗100首中的其中一首，关于李白与白鹇故事的演绎。

Tradition is not the antonym of avant-garde, it is the information pool, so "do not throw the baby out with the bathwater": in the big-data era, the ability to distinguish what we need from useless interference information is crucial, without it, you will feel overwhelmed and exhausted, like a novice driver in the middle of the famous Huangjuewan Overpass. Tradition has its "weight", as it is the accumulated condensation of history, but it is your choice to resist and defy it as a burden or make it your ballast to sail through the ocean of knowledge. All new discoveries are based on known laws, even the most audacious experiments most be equipped with previously invented reaction kettles and radio telescopes and particle accelerator... even the most deviant writing includes the most ordinary words in a traditional dictionary, instead of Naʼvi language of Pandora inhabitants, or circular "logograms"(random tendrils and splotches derivating from the ring) like in the movie “Arrival”. The measure of how avant-garde we are is not in how far away we go from tradition, but how tall we can be, standing on the shoulders of tradition. All-inclusiveness is key to profundity rather than exclusiveness. It requires us to discard prejudice, make a periodic table of human history and ideology.

Here I share with you a poem from "The Ornithological Atlas" a, a series of 100 poems, which is a rendition of the story of Li Po and his silver pheasants:

[20] Lophura Nycthemera白鹇

(Silver Pheasant)

序：闻黄山胡公有双白鹇。盖是家鸡所伏。自小驯狎。了无惊猜。以其名呼之。皆就掌取食。然此鸟耿介。尤难畜之。余平生酷好。竟莫能致。而胡公辍赠于我。唯求一诗。闻之欣然。适会宿意。因援笔三叫。文不加点以赠之。

请以双白璧，买君双白鹇。白鹇白如锦，白雪耻容颜。

照影玉潭里，刷毛琪树间。夜栖寒月静，朝步落花间。

我愿得此鸟，玩之坐碧山。胡公能辍赠，笼寄野人还。

——[唐] 李白《赠黄山胡公求白鹇·并序》

五颜六色的黑。朝秦暮楚的白。

“白鸠之白谁与邻，霜衣雪襟诚可珍。”(李白《白鸠辞》)“摇裔双白鸥，鸣飞沧江流。”(李白《古风四十二》)麦陇青青三月时，白雉朝飞挟两雌。(李白《雉朝飞》)八月边风高，胡鹰白锦毛。(李白《观放白鹰》)白鹭下秋水，孤飞如坠霜。(李白《白鹭鸶》)……

锦衣闲客怀抱大阮在黄山顶上等雪。夜半风声鹤唳，众生平等的罕见时刻被铅粉高低点化。开弦千里云浪便从峡谷豁口倾泻而来

素底墨线羽衣有蓑笠之声。蹀躞带上金带扣随风作响，香囊隐约白芷琥珀桂花并无杂气

古柏间冰挂落下时撞断了琴音，七步外的悬崖有鹰隼孤啼。云在远山腰一抹缃色。此处对面没有敬亭山，则万物皆为镜鉴

谪仙人饱览剑阁峥嵘峨眉高邈衡山苍苍庐山秀出南斗傍，却未尝造访此洞天。耿介者必独行，过山溪，栖秀木，何言成双？坊间胡公传言谬矣

在此黄山四千仞，三十二莲峰间，白色为收敛而非扩张。松木劈为炉中木柴时，家鸡作为抛砖引玉之物便显露俗色：所谓驯狎，并无习得

玉潭是庭前桃源，琪树本狱外天梯，此景当前，孰能安为笼鸟？

既然畏途巉岩不可攀，何必叹失向来之烟霞

隐士睡在流言的雾凇里，黄山的花叶木石尚未开始流动。不速之客，在不可遇、不可求的途中，满身飞雪

君不见，不羁闲客神龙见首不见尾出没无常早已飞临峨眉之巅

君不见，奇松云海依旧而隐士含笑登仙深藏功与名

此章名曰

《白驹过隙青史间李太白以白璧求白鹇其诗取青媲白其心阳春白雪其悲白发千丈虽持白首之心奈何白云苍狗惟留此说余等奉读誓曰白首穷经不知东方既白》

* 白鹇（学名：Lophura nycthemera）：国家二级保护动物，属于大型鸡类。雄鸟全长100-119厘米，雌鸟58-67厘米。头顶具冠。嘴粗短而强壮，上嘴先端微向下曲，但不具钩；鼻孔不为羽毛所掩盖着。翅稍短圆。尾长。跗蹠裸出，雄性具距，但有时雌雄均有；趾完全裸出，后趾位置较高于他趾。雌雄异色；雄鸟上体白色而密布以黑纹，头上具长而厚密、状如发丝的蓝黑色羽冠披于头后；脸裸露，赤红色；尾长、白色，两翅亦为白色。下体蓝黑色，脚红色。雌鸟通体橄榄褐色，羽冠近黑色。栖息于森林茂密，林下植物稀疏的常绿阔叶林和沟谷雨林。食昆虫、植物茎叶、果实和种子等。通常成对或成3-6只的小群活动，性机警，很少起飞，紧急时亦急飞上树。繁殖期筑巢于灌木丛间的地面凹处。每窝产卵4-6枚，雏鸟早成性，孵出的当日即可离巢随亲鸟活动。分布于中国、缅甸、泰国和中南半岛。

[20] Lophura Nycthemera白鹇

(Silver Pheasant)

Preface:

I heard about a scholar Hu who leads a recluse life on Mt. Huangshan, and that he has a couple of silver pheasants, hatched by hens. They have been intimate with the scholar and totally trust him since they were chicks. He has given them names and feeds them by hand. They are lofty birds and difficult to domesticate though. I have been adoring it without being lucky enough to have one. Hu gave his silver pheasants to me as gifts. All he asked of me is a poem, which is a pleasure for me to write. The birds seemed to understand what I am writing and roosted by my side. At one go I finished the following poem:

I hope to trade your silver pheasants with my pair of impeccable mutton-fat jades.

How I admire you, with those feathers as smooth as satin and as white as snow.

You saunter by the emerald lake and through the forest's verdant arcade,

sleep when the moon shines and wake up as twilight grows.

I only wish I could have you by my side on the picturesque hills,

I accommodate you with this cage and we will be heading home beyond the hedgerow

--LI Po "Dedicated to Scholar Hu on Mt. Huangshan"

All-inclusive black. Capricious white.

"A dove is unparalleledly white, like a frost-armored knight. (Li Po "Ode to a White Dove") "A couple of white gulls flutter over the waves, neglecting all the torrents behind that rant and rave"(Li Po "Ancientry Poem: Verse 42") "In March over the green fields of wheat, a male silver pheasant flied with two females above when my heart skipped a beat"(Li Po "Morning Pheasants") "In August the border area becomes so windy and bleak, the feathers of an eagle as white as a snow-covered peak" (Li Po "The Release of a White Eagle") "An egret bathed herself in the autumn lake, it looked as if pieces of frost were falling from the heavens and touched the water with its first flake"(Li Po "White Egret")……

The white-robed aristocrat was leaning against a pine tree on the top of Mt. Huangshan, daruan (bass lute) in arms, waiting for the snow to come. At midnight cranes began to cry in the bitter wind. Lead White paint softened this precious moment of universal equality. The dam was like a bow, which attracted arrows of clouds from distant valleys

Your ink-lined snow-white plumage rustled like a straw rain cape in the breeze. Your Diexie jade belt hooks rang with its gold buckles and your satchel filled with angelica roots, amber and scented osmanthus

Icicles fell from branches of old pines and interrupted your fingers on the Guqin. A hawk cried and skimmed over the cliff. A twist of smoke hang around mountains on the horizon, glistening a brocade-yellow light. You do not have mirage of Jingting Mountain before your eyes, but fortunately you find a mirror of your mind in Everything

The poet had witnessed so many wonders of nature: Jianmen Pass, Mount Emei, Mount Heng and Mount Lu, but it was the first time that he was here. He travelled alone and he went so far, crossing creeks and slept under trees. Who said he should ever have a company? Scholars were but gossip boys

Now on the summit isolated over the clouds, overlooking 31 other peaks—white was a symbol of constriction instead of expansion. Chopped pine wood was burning in the stove, while hens started to show their true colors: the so-called "intimacy" between human and birds was never unacquirable

When you have a crystal lake as your lawn and emerald trees as your slides, why should you be content with a cage?

Like you said, “the road to Shu was arduous”, so why wasting your time moaning on the lost long-sceneries

The hermit slept in the rime-covered pine needles. The seasonal circulation of flowers and stones had not began yet. He was nothing more than an uninvited guest, waist-deep in the snow of a white lie called "serendipity"

Have you not seen[1], the silver pheasant has flown over Mount Emei with all its underestimated agility

Have you not seen, the pines and clouds are perpetual so the hermit becomes an immortal and remains silent about his fame and glory[2]

The title of this chapter is:

"Time dashed by as swiftly as a white horse in whose flow floats the story of Li Po trading his white jades for the silver pheasants as white as his spotless heart and his sorrowful hair which turned white as the white clouds changed their shapes into gray wolves underneath which the scholars read his story being unaware that the eastern sky was lit up by white twilight"

[1]"Have you not seen" appeared in the beginning of the first stanza of Li Po's famous poem "Qiang Jin Jiu"("Viva the Wine")

[2]"remains silent about his fame and glory" is a sentence from Li Po's famous poem "Xia Ke Xing"("The Journey of A Chivalrous Swordsman")

* The silver pheasant (Lophura nycthemera) is a species of pheasant found in forests, mainly in mountains, of mainland Southeast Asia, and eastern and southern China, with introduced populations in Hawaii and various locations in the US mainland. The male is black and white, while the female is mainly brown. Both sexes have a bare red face and red legs (the latter separating it from the greyish-legged kalij pheasant). It is common in aviculture, and overall also remains common in the wild, but some of its subspecies(notably L. n. whiteheadi from Hainan, L. n. engelbachi from southern Laos, and L. n. annamensis from southern Vietnam) are rare and threatened.

Scientific name: Lophura nycthemera

Higher classification: Gallopheasant

二十世纪，西方哲学关于“作者”与“作者身份”展开了广泛讨论。例如这两篇著名的文章：罗兰·巴特《作者之死》和米歇尔·福柯的《作者是什么？》、在中国，对于“作者”与“作者身份”的定义，最具说服力和公认的理论是什么？在我看来，百科诗派也在思考关于这两者的课题。

7. In the twentieth century, Western philosophy dealt extensively with the notion of author and authorship. Let me mention as an example the famous essays by Roland Barthes »Death of the Author« and Michel Foucault's »What is an Author?«. What is the established or most widespread concept of author and authorship in China and how do you see the author and authorship yourself? It seems to me that the Encyclopedic Poetry School also addresses the question of author, authorship …

很巧合的是，2019年12月，我们对意大利诗人、策展人阿尔贝托·佩莱加塔的采访中，曾经涉及到这一话题。福柯说：“写作就像一场游戏一样逐渐展开，它不可避免地越出自身的规则，最终把它们抛在身后。”在写作中，这不是表现或提高写作姿态；不是语言中主语的引脚；而是主题写作继续消失的空间的打开。“我把这句话理解为：写作机制类同于深度学习，它是公开或隐蔽的，作者实际上沦为了某些看不见的定律控制下的“影子写手”，逐渐丧失了主导权，直到被既定的“脚本”所吞噬，变成了打破“阿西莫夫机器人三定律”，不断进行自编程的系统/机器人。

阿尔贝托对福柯理论的见解可谓精辟："社交网络和互联网（网络摄像头、浩若烟海的各种视频信息、预制图像、不受限制的访问权等）创造了一个镜像世界，但我们所在的此世界很快就实现了重组。法国哲学家让·鲍德里亚称之为"模特的感伤眩晕"的现象：所有风格、图像最终都变成了博物馆图解式的等待复原的符号，仍然亟需进行转码。”

“在写作者个人特征整体上被消抹的过程中，也存在书写和死亡之间的关联；写作者在自己和文本之间塑造出的矛盾和对抗，勾除了他特有的个性的标记。如果我们想要了解今天的写作者，其入手点将会是他的缺席的独特性，将会是他与死亡的关联，而这种关联又会把他转变为他自己写作的牺牲品。”（福柯《什么是作者？》）作者为何以及如何塑造矛盾与对抗？这让我想起了罗兰·巴特的话："在人种学社会里，对叙事负责的从来不是个人，而是调停人、萨满或检举人，他们的‘表演’——对于叙事代码的掌控——也许令人钦佩，但绝对称不上‘天才’”。萨满必须面临被反噬的风险，而作家则可能不知不觉间创建了违背自己意愿的破坏性的代码。

Coincidentally, in an interview with Italian poet and art curator Alberto Pellegatta in December 2019 we had discussed on Michel Foucault' s “Qu'est-ce qu'un auteur?”(What is an Author?) in which he said: “l'écriture se déploie comme un jeu qui va infailliblement au-delà de ses règles, et passe ainsi au-dehors. Dans l'écriture, il n'y va pas de la manifestation ou de l'exaltation du geste d'écrire; il ne s'agit pas de l'épinglage d'un sujet dans un langage; il est question de l'ouverture d'un espace où le sujet écrivant ne cesse de disparaître.” I understand this as: writing is a kind of deep learning, overt or covert, in which authors actually become ghostwriters to unknown disciplines, losing autonomy step by step until swallowed by the scripts, which run like self-programming machines/robots and end up breaking Isaac Asimov’s Laws of Robotics

Alberto had given an impressive comments on Michel Foucault' s theory: “Social networks and internet in general (webcam, endless video, preproduction of images, total access etc.) create a doubled world, but this world is in fast re-unification. A phenomenon that Baudrillard named «sentimental vertigo of models»: possibility of every styles, images became just museographical signs forever recoverable; something that still has to be transcodificated.”

“Ce rapport de l'écriture à la mort se manifeste aussi dans l'effacement des caractères individuels du sujet écrivant; par toutes les chicanes qu'il établit entre lui et ce qu'il écrit, le sujet écrivant déroute tous les signes de son individualité particulière; la marque de l'écrivain n'est plus que la singularité de son absence; il lui faut tenir le rôle du mort dans le jeu de l'écriture.” Why should an author create conflicts between himself and his works, and how? That reminds me of Roland Barthes’s words “in ethnographic societies the responsibility for a narrative is never assumed by a person but by a mediator, shaman or relator whose ‘performance’ — the mastery of the narrative code — may possibly be admired but never his ‘genius’.” A shaman has to face the risk that power gets out of hand and come home to roost, and an author, may have unconsciously generated codes incompatible with his own will, a derivative maleficent or completely unintentional.

中国是21世纪保持社会主义政治经济体制的不多的几个国家之一。而斯洛文尼亚作为前南斯拉夫的一部分，在1990年代初期从社会主义过渡到资本主义。向资本主义的过渡改变了很多事情，包括作家、知识分子在社会结构中的地位，他们逐渐被边缘化，而社会主义国家里，体制与社会整体都期望作家们更积极参与社会活动。当今中国，诗人和作家处于怎样的位置？我们是否可以认为《赫马芙洛狄忒宣言》不仅是艺术意义的，也是社会意义的？您如何看待文学与社会的关系？诗人和诗歌在当今世界中所扮演的是怎样的角色？

8. China is one the rare countries in the world that has maintained a socialistic political and economical system in the 21st century. Slovenia, as part of Yugoslavia, switched to capitalism together with other Eastern European countries in the early 1990s. With the transition to capitalism, many things changed, including the position of the writer, the intellectual in society. Poets and writers we are pushed to the margins, while in socialism the writer was expected to be socially engaged, both by the authorities and by society. What is the position of poets and writers in China today? And should the Declaration of Hermaphroditic Writing be understood as an artistic or also as a social project? How do you see the relationship between literature and society? What is the role of the poet and poetry in the world today?

首先，诗人与诗歌活动家是泾渭分明的两个群体。我不认为社会的政治意识形态与诗人及其社会参与度之间存在必然关联。这是时间管理问题。每个人的一天都是24小时。你不能同时扮演交际达人和严肃思想家。

作为一个 INTJ （MBTI十六型人格），我不建议诗人浪费宝贵时间在虚与委蛇的无效社交上。诗人大可不必在研讨会或论坛上偶遇的同行中强求认同。究竟有何信息值得交换？成功学？有何理由彼此敬佩？精致利己主义？诗人应该拒绝混迹于充斥着主流认知惰性的市侩人群，否则他们或者身不由己被同化，或者卷入毫无意义的争论。诗人和作家把自己描述为“被边缘化人士”是不对的，他们应该是边缘的捍卫者，就像昼夜之间的明暗线，傲立于庸俗与神圣之间，物质与乌托邦之间，象形文字与二进制之间......就像新加坡滨海湾金沙酒店顶上无边泳池中的泳者，这样的“边缘”是多么令人兴奋的经历！写作就像密码学，是一种智力的极限运动。当今中国的诸多流派——一般是自由度较大的组织——都具有典型的时代特征：去区域化、精英主义和文化异质化。过去四十年，在经济发展的时代背景下，这些流派雨后春笋般涌现。这足以说明诗人在外部信息场中寻找到了精神关联，不需要再以“独狼”的面具示人。至于《赫马芙洛狄忒宣言》，是早在2016年提出的理念，它的外延随着时代发展不断拓宽，并融入到社会项目的策划之中。2020年，我们组织了"2021国际性别平等年圆桌论坛"，来自世界多国的诗人（包括男性和女性）参与了论坛。我希望将来我们能设计更多项目承载这一理念。（完）

First, poets and poetic activists are completely two different kinds of people. I do not actually agree that it is political ideologies that caused divergences between poets on their social participation. It is about time management. Everybody get 24 hours a day and you cannot be a socialite while being a deep thinker.

As an INTJ(The 16 MBTI® Types) person, I do not suggest poets to waste their time in the deliberate but inefficacious acquaintances between those hold incompatible ideas. A poet does not have to identify himself with those who he met at seminars and forums. What information can they exchange? The science of success? What quality should they admire in one another? Sophistication and adulation? Poets should refuse to get mingled in the crowd brimming with mainstream ignorance and philistinism, or they get assimilated or get involved into futile arguments. Poets and writers should never describe themselves as “pushed to the margins” because they are guardians of the margins, like the terminator between night and day”, between the mundane and the divine, the substantial and the utopian, the pictographic and the binary, like swimmers in the Infinity Pool on the top of Marina Bay Sands Hotel, what exciting experience! Writing is one of the extreme sports of the mind, as cryptology is. In contemporary China, poetry schools, usually loose gatherings, are typical of the times: de-regionalization, intellectualism and cultural heterogeneity. They popped up like mushrooms during the last 40 years, as soon as economic developments allowed. That was a proof that poets found spiritual bonding in the external information field, they do not need the 24-hour persona of a lone wolf. As for “Declaration of Hermaphroditic Writing”, it was an ideal back at 2016 but has been expanded and included social projects too. In 2020 we organized “International Roundtable of Gender Equality” which poets from various countries, male and female, attended. Hope in the future we can find more ways to embody this ideal in.

主持人：Peter Semolič

斯洛文尼亚语翻译：Neža Vilhelm

（由于全文较长，本期只刊出中英文版，斯洛文尼亚语请点击官网链接阅读。）

诗人简介：

殷晓媛

“百科诗派”创始人、智库型长诗/小说/诗剧/实验文本作者、“泛性别主义”写作首倡者、从事中、日、英、法、德多语言写作。中国作家协会、中国诗歌学会、中国翻译协会会员。著有长诗11000行长诗“前沿三部曲”、六万行结构主义长诗“风能玫瑰”等，小说四十万字，诗剧及实验文本若干卷。出版四部中文诗集：《印象之内，物象之外》、《它们曾从卓尔金历中掠过》、《前沿三部曲》、《播云剂》（百科诗派创派10周年年鉴系列）、一部英文诗集《Cloud Seeding Agent》（美国Pinyon Publishing出版社，2020）及多部译著，最近一部为2018年8月纽约New Feral出版社出版的《成为一条河流》（Bill Wolak著）。与西班牙当代最重要诗人之一杰姆·B.罗萨联合主编《无国界诗歌VII：中国-西班牙当代诗人》（西班牙Olelibros出版集团，2021）。作品被译为法语、德语、西班牙语、意大利语、瑞典语、葡萄牙语、阿拉伯语、爱尔兰语、加利西亚语、芬兰语、罗马尼亚语、希腊语、爱沙尼亚语、俄语、孟加拉语、希伯来语、马其顿语、土耳其语、保加利亚语、日语、匈牙利语、阿尔巴尼亚语、波斯语、克罗地亚语等，发表包括英国《the New Humanist》《新阿拉伯人报》、爱尔兰《Comhar》、美国《Madswirl》《Pinyon Review》《Contrapuntos》、意大利《La Macchina Sognante》《Argo》《Rivista Letteraria》《L’Ulisse》、西班牙《La Libélula Vaga》《Aullido》、墨西哥国家诗歌学会《Poesía÷Neón》、希腊《Diastixo》、德国《Literarische Blätter》、法国《Recours au poème》、阿根廷《Buenos Aires Poetry》《Revista Excéntrica》、保加利亚《普罗夫迪夫文学》《GABRIELL-E-LIT》、葡萄牙《Adelaide》、罗马尼亚《Actualitatea Literară》《Poesis》《Viața Românească》、阿尔巴尼亚《Obelisk》、俄罗斯《Лиterraтура》《Новая Литература》、克罗地亚《radio gornji grad》等杂志，被收录入西班牙《Caminos sin fronteras》等选本，曾当选巴西文学大刊《Revista Conexão Literatura》封面诗人，在加拿大渥太华CKCU-FM 93.1波斯语电台等播放，参加国际融媒体专辑《Sal——国际诗歌 ╳ 音乐跨界专辑》（葡萄牙）等多个跨界艺术项目；著作被美国、英国、德国、法国、俄罗斯、爱尔兰、新西兰等国一百余家国家图书馆、世界顶级名校图书馆和大使馆大规模收藏。受邀参加“Poetry Vicenza诗歌节”（意大利）、“Bitola Literary Circle”云端诗歌节（北马其顿）；Aco Karamanov国际诗歌节（北马其顿）等国际诗歌节。2020年策划“100位国际一线诗人精品诗歌云诵读&表演国际诗歌节”——“誓[诗]大会”。百科诗派“2018人工智能纸魔方”（六国语版）”、“2019：创派12周年纪念徽章”、“百科诗派12周年‘诗 ╳ 影 ╳ 艺’跨界艺术联展册”+“2020‘诗 ╳ 影 ╳ 艺’跨界艺术联展册”、“2020年豪华精装版“天·地·人”摄影画册诗历”“‘国际誓[诗]大会’高定CD专辑”、“红 • 无限”诗密码魔方、“诗海密卷•百科诗派2021菲林日历”文创项目总策划及总设计师，所发起“百科之友主题跨界创作工坊”创作出各类综合文本、摄影、绘画、装置、音乐、对联、朗诵、书法作品二百余件。曾授权其独家翻译诗歌的包括美国、瑞典、爱尔兰、英国、澳大利亚、意大利、西班牙、加拿大、俄罗斯、沙特阿拉伯、法国、葡萄牙、芬兰、秘鲁、阿根廷、印度、日本、古巴、洪都拉斯、哥伦比亚、阿尔巴尼亚、北马其顿、罗马尼亚、玻利维亚、巴勒斯坦、厄瓜多尔等的200余位国际诗人。“2021国际性别平等年圆桌论坛”发起人。2018年独自游历全国名山大川，包括全程徒步登顶泰山。俄罗斯国家图书馆采编部部长T.V.彼得鲁先科将百科诗派著作誉为“横贯当代中国诗坛的百科诗学主义之强流”，多米尼加国家图书馆馆藏发展部部长Glennys Reyes Tapia则称之为“博大文化代表、书志编纂研究瑰宝”。

主持人简介：

彼得·塞莫利奇（Peter Semolič）

1967年生于卢布尔雅那，卢布尔雅那大学通用语言学与文化研究专业毕业。著有15部诗集：《柽柳》（1991）、《拜占庭玫瑰》（1994）、《言语之屋》（1996）、《水上圈》（2000）、《路径问题》（2001）、《边界》（2002）、《沼泽野火》（2004）、《一个属于你的地方》（2006）、《环太阳之旅》（2008）、《银河》（2009）、《诗与柬》（2009）、《正午的黑夜》（2012）、《彼岸》（2015）、《来访》（2015）和《边缘》（2020）。获多种嘉奖，包括斯洛文尼亚两个最负盛名的奖项“詹科诗歌奖”和“普雷舍伦基金会奖”（即“国家文学艺术奖”）。1998年获“Vilenica文学界水晶奖”，并凭借“十年间杰出的诗歌创作”获“Velenjica奖”。（2016）。除诗歌外还曾创作戏剧、儿童文学作品，并翻译众多英语、法语、塞尔维亚语及克罗地亚语作品。是斯洛文尼亚第一部在线诗歌杂志《Poiesis》（http://www.poiesis.si/）联合创始人兼主编。

百科诗派作品外译、出版及发表一览：

海上《岩鸽在亚洲一带飞》——它更飞向了大洋彼岸的渥太华！

保加利亚文学刊物《GABRIELL-E-LIT》刊发殷晓媛地质学组诗

巴西文学大刊《Revista Conexão Literatura》8月刊封面诗人：中国诗人殷晓媛

《无国界诗歌VII：中国-西班牙当代诗人》由西班牙Olelibros出版集团隆重推出！

1906年创刊的《Viața Românească》？今天刊登了中国诗人殷晓媛的七首诗

殷晓媛大气科学系列之《晴天电场》被译为克罗地亚语

孟加拉语跨界艺术杂志刊发殷晓媛《双生火焰》精选

沙特阿拉伯大型文学期刊《Samaward》刊发孙谦《暮春》

俄罗斯《新文学》刊发殷晓媛鸟类学组诗二首

俄罗斯名刊《Лиterraтура》刊发殷晓媛物理学组诗

西班牙文学刊物《Aullido》刊发殷晓媛《望天树》