跨越An Ideology of Prada与Body of Work的幕后，专访Miuccia Prada（上）

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MIUCCIA PRADA语录

‘This collection is about the history of women, the history of people, not the history of fashion. I have always said this, but now it feel significant to be re-stated. Using these pieces, being inspired by history, connects with the lives of the past. You want to live again, to be inspired. And to learn from the lives of people.’

‘Tradition is about humanity - connections between people, passing down knowledge. A human history. These ideas interested us - to look at how and why things had been created in certain ways. But there is only a trace, a memory. It’s not retro, at all.’ 

“此系列关乎女性成长史、人类史，而非时尚史。我常常这样说起，但目前有必要重申。这些服饰受历史启发，与过往生活息息相关。人们渴望重获新生，渴望灵感迸发，并汲取他人的生活经验。” 

“传统关乎人文，那是人与人的连接、智识的传承。这是一段人类史。我们意欲探究事物如何以及为何被创造出来。但这仅仅是一抹痕迹，一份记忆。它绝不是复古。” 

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 RAF SIMONS语录

‘There is an important aspect to me, which is the idea of stripping down. The process of reduction, of focussing - something we have explored from our first collection together - is present again. Any narrative has been stripped away, but the pieces themselves have a paradoxical complexity - an internal, personal narrative. Architecture redefines the relationship between a woman and her clothes through something intimate, hidden. And traditional decoration is used in non-traditional forms, to challenge or contradict the visual conventions of pieces. It is never obvious.’

‘In taking from the past we translate - the beauty, quality of tradition, even of couture.This is always something Prada has done. And valuing history includes us valuing Prada’s history - I think of revolutionary moments in Prada’s history, and we echo them here. There are never direct recreations, but there is a reflection of something you know, a language of Prada. And those moments have helped define our idea of beauty today, which we are now redefining.’

“简约理念对我而言是极其重要的。精简、聚焦的过程从我们的首个系列即开始探索，本系列再次呈现。所有叙事皆被剥离，而服饰本身却蕴含矛盾的复杂性——一种内在的个人叙事。建筑般的廓形通过某种亲密而隐藏的形式，重新定义女性与其着装之间的关系。传统的装饰用于非传统的形式，挑战或对抗服饰的视觉惯例。这并不是显而易见的。” 

“我们以过往为灵感，再现传统服饰，甚至高级定制服的美学与特质。此为Prada惯例。我们注重人类历史，更珍视Prada历史——我回想Prada发展中的革命性时刻，在此与之遥相呼应。我们并非直接复刻，而是重现人们所知的Prada某些经典语言。那些时刻帮助我们定义了今日的美学理念，我们正赋予其全新涵义。” 

当今年年初，PRADA品牌带来了精彩的2022FW时装大秀“An Ideology of Prada”系列女装与“Body of Work”系列男装后，《Arena HOMME+》有幸探寻幕后，成为该季秀后首家媒体专访两位传奇设计大师Miuccia Prada与Raf Simons，亦拍摄了MIU MIU品牌该季服饰的全球男士杂志的首刊封面。而更多关于本次采访的吉光片羽，请详看下文，为翻译节选。

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I was supposed to be gliding down the Carsten Höller metal slide that begins in her office and leads out into the courtyard of PRADA’s Milan Via Bergamo headquarters with my hands up in the air like I just don’t care. Because there Mrs – ‘call me Miuccia’ – Prada was. IN THE FLESH. IN REALITY. Not a pixelated square in sight. Now no irritating Zoom lag. And, to make things truly more special, by her side Mr – ‘call me whatever you like, but be honest’ Simons.

当我从Miuccia Prada女士办公室的Carsten Höller所设计的金属滑梯[卡斯滕·霍勒 (Carsten Höller) 1961年出生于比利时，是一位科学家，也是一位当代艺术家。他拥有农业科学博士学位，专门研究昆虫的嗅觉传播策略领域。他将自己的科学专业运用在作品中，特别集中探讨有关人类和自然的关系。]流畅而下，滑到了位于PRADA米兰总部BERGAMO的室外区域时，我高举双手好让自己看起来好像并没有实际上的那么兴奋。院里有“叫我Miuccia”的——Prada女士。“IN THE FLESH.IN REALITY”的字样也很快进入眼帘。终于，现在再没有让人烦躁的ZOOM延迟，并且所有的一切都显得更加生动而特别，在她旁边是“喜欢称呼我什么都可以，但你要保持诚实”的——Simons先生。

Perhaps an overshare, but in my mind I was going to give both legends high fives (do these two do high fives?) on their most comprehensive womenswear collection yet, entitled An Ideology of Prada, which followed and ran in tandem to the men’s show, Body of Work. Two ambitious Prada expressions, presented in the space of two months, that aimed to reflect a period very much in flux and marked by confusion. Of substance. Powerful. I feel the Weight...

也许过于兴奋，但在我脑海里我特别想跟这两位时尚行业的传奇人物击掌庆祝（但他们会跟我这样做嘛？）这两位时尚巨匠从盛放的女装系列An Ideology of Prada “普拉达的意识”至联手共创的男装大秀Body of Work“身体艺术”工作的衣身。这可是近期Prada雄心勃勃的2个大事件，在连续两个月内呈现，以便于诠释在这个以困惑而又错综复杂为标志的时期。但显而易见地，时装拥有的强大力量依旧，我感受到了这个分量。

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On this day, I chose to focus more on power of a different form. Soft Pow-er. A term that, yes, is political and is often welded as a malleable propaganda tool by those with hidden or not so hidden agendas; (I’ve always loved the delicious oxymoronic juxtaposition of these two words.) It’s non-coercive. Something that ideally should have more weight and heft in the world than the specter of the now much-touted nuclear button. Soft Power’s currency is culture and here I was face-to-face – hurrah! – with two Masters of the form. And so on a day when I had been fire- fighting my social media DM inbox, deluged with cries of ‘What are you doing at a fashion show?’ whilst preparing to interview the most deliciously intriguing and wonderfully unprecedented creative duos at one of the most influential brands of our time... Well, all I could think was: ‘Prada is Soft Power,’ underlined and capitalised in my notepad.

在当今的国际形式下，我选择聚集不同形式的能量，尤其是Soft Power软实力，这似乎是个政治术语，经常会时不时被用来延展成方便传播的工具。（我一直很喜欢这两个单词令人愉快的把那些矛盾的不同观念并置）它不是强制性的。在理想情况下，它应该比现在备受吹捧的恐怖之物核按钮[“核按钮”是一个比喻术语，指的是使用核武器的权力。“按下核按钮”是指实际使用它们。使用此类武器的实际过程比简单地按下按钮要复杂得多。由于政治变化或目前控制“核子按钮”的人丧失能力，“核子按钮”可能会转移给另一位官员。各个核国家都有随同领导人一起的核公文包，使他们可以随时发射核导弹。]在世界上具有更大的重量和重要性。软实力的货币是文化，并且我在这里正以面对面的形式赞叹于两位设计巨匠。有一天我正在崩溃地处理着社交媒体涌来的无数个邮件并被问及“你在秀场里干什么？”我同时正在准备着采访我们这个时代里两位最有影响力且精彩绝伦前所未有的创意行业的先锋人物。是的，我现在所能想到得就是“Prada是软实力”在我的记事本里强调大写并划上了重点。

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On this day, after an excellent Prada womens- wear show, where Depeche Mode’s trademark noir accompanied the to-and-fro unapologetic-archaeological dig of Prada’s own archives, some camera-friendly NEW FRILLS/THRILLS and, crucially, the weighted hand of reassurance (four re- assuring hands! And yes, a bulbous sleeved coat dangling with bugle beading can feel essential and necessary even now...) On this day in such strange times. On this day in February 2022...

今天，在卓绝的PRADA女装大秀之后，我们还可以看到Depeche Mode[赶时髦（英语：Depeche Mode）是一支在1980年成立于英国艾赛克斯（Essex）的巴西尔登（Basildon）的电子音乐乐团。]（赶时髦流行乐队）的一系列显著的标志伴随着早期的一些普拉达的作品。有一些在镜头前看起来仍然是非常鲜活的，关键是可以用手来细细感受（可以用双手来感受两次！圆鼓的袖口挂上圆形的珠状物，现在还可以明显感受到它的与众不同）在当今这样的时代，在2022年2月的今天还可以感受到其传承的品质。

If we’re going to be seeing fashion then let it be authored with real care and authority. That’s why there’s the well-established tradition of Prada showing in its Fondazione space, an institution that has now instigated many a credible monographic exhibition, studies and creative research projects, but is also comfortable hosting a vibey dinner or rooftop cocktail party. That AMO-conceived hexagonal tunnel, with the feeling of a kitschy Tron set, can be overanalyzed, as we the spectators watch the show from our olive velvetclad cinema seating...

我们能看到时尚并且同时可以真切感受到它的权威性关怀。这就是为什么大名鼎鼎的PRADA Fondazione空间的传承意义，它现在不仅支持艺术展、学术和创意项目研究发展，也会举办让人心旷神怡的晚宴及屋顶的鸡尾酒会。在AMO六边形的空间，里做为观众的我们均可以在橄榄状座位排序里看完整场大秀。天鹅绒包覆的橄榄色电影院座位里看完整场大秀。

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The overriding thought inevitably, if my social media feed is to be trusted, is that fashion should be immediately denigrated to a pointless, tonedeaf activity. But bravely and in measured tone, Giorgio Armani had already pronounced that those wishing to halt all fashion shows now were, in his view, Completely Wrong. The world needs Miuccia Prada and Raf Simons creating as much as ever; perhaps even more so?

有个不容忽视的观点，很多人认为时尚本身就可以快速触达受众，不需要花费精力做这么大的铺设。但在一些权威人士的勇敢而又节制的表态下，这样的风潮已经变了，Giorgio Armani先生就曾公开表达那些希望现在停止所有时装秀的人的观点是完全错误的。世界也需要Miuccia Prada女士和Raf Simons先生这样的巨头进行一如既往的联合创作，也许在当下更加需要如此？

I don’t need to list here all the reasons why Prada matters. It’s already all been said, repeated and re-repeated. (Often misinterpreted too.) I shouldn’t rant further. But I feel both emboldened by Miuccia and Raf and protective of them and their ambition.

我无需在这里列出很多原因证明为什么普拉达品牌至关重要，因为所有人一直都在重复地表达它的重要性（但也经常会有误读）。我不需要解释过多，但我可以感受到Miuccia和Raf这两位的雄心壮志。

So here we were, beginning our conversation by justifying What We Do for about 45 minutes. One of the greatest talents in the entire history of fashion, Miuccia Prada, being unapologetic and direct, calling fashion irrelevant in one context but also defending it like any other necessary profession. And her co-conspirator Raf alongside her, probing at the matter with greater sensitivity, doubting even the relevance of what they were doing the day before when they were standing backstage at their show. Yes, there was something somewhat farcical about the three of us pontificating about why fashion matters, why our job even exists. I should have just shouted aloud, every five or ten minutes: THIS IS PRADA! Of COURSE IT BLOODY MATTERS! IT TRANSFORMS MY EXISTENCE!

下面即将开启我们的对话，时长45分钟。其中一位是整个时尚行业的传奇，Miuccia Prada女士，非常地坦率直接，她觉得时尚与其它的一些职业没有必要的关联性。并且，她的同僚Raf在她身边，有着极强的敏感性，甚至在大秀合作的前一天在后台，他还在怀疑他们双方合作的关联性。我们三个人一直在顾自看似荒谬地讨论着时尚的重要性，甚至我们工作存在的原因。我应该每隔5至10分钟大声地喊出来：这就是PRADA！这很重要！它改变了我的存在观！

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Instead I started going into polemic podium mode. I never do this normally. I blame the glasses of Prosecco that popped up round about the time the sun started setting. I started banging on about Prada’s raison d’être. That if it didn’t exist, I didn’t think there would be much purpose to what I do. No hyperbole. No exaggeration. It is what it is. To which, Miuccia laughed it off with ‘Brava.’ And Raf happily concurred... (Mrs Prada did admit she was a bit fatigued but Simons was in very good spirits, ready to bolster his collaborator. Lovely to witness. They’ve been in the thick of it. But this fight is far from over!)

相反，我开始抱有挑战权威地心态。我从不循规蹈矩，我开始“挑”普罗塞克的杯子怎么可以在黄昏初始就摆好了。我开始吹嘘PRADA存大的意义。如果这个品牌不存在，我就无法收获今天的一切，毫不夸张，这就是我真实地状态。Miuccia大笑并说到：棒极了，Raf也开心地附和。（Prada女士承认她确实有些疲惫但Simons先生还神采熠熠，他开始为她打气）

访谈实录 / Interview Record

Susie Lau: Congratulations on the wonderful show yesterday. It’s been a long, long month for both of you. Is there any concept of time at the moment for any of you? / 恭喜两位昨天的大秀很精彩。对你们两位来说真是漫长的一个月，此刻对你们两位其中一方来说有没有时间的概念？

Miuccia Prada: I feel no sense of time, no. / 我没有感觉到时间。

Raf Simons: I think this period is where we come together. / 我认为这段时间我们一直在一起。

Miuccia Prada: Somehow we work in a way that isn’t stressful, we try not to work too late or have to do weekends or long nights. / 我们在无压力的方式下一同工作，我们尽量不工作得特别晚或者周末加班以及熬夜。

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Miuccia Prada: I’m guessing the two recent shows, did also blend quite seamlessly for you, from the menswear into the womenswear... Is that true? / 我猜想最近两场秀对你们来说也是无缝结合，不论是男装还是女装，对嘛？

Raf Simons: It was intended... Well, partially and partially not. / 我们是这样打算的，但是一部是，一部分不是。

Miuccia Prada: I usually always work like a flow. Everything that we do comes naturally also. It helps to have one strong concept for the season because we don’t show the men’s and women’s together so they are separate, yet it is one concept. / 我通常工作比较像流水一样的简单，每件事情都自然而然的水到渠成。这一季的概念比较强，因为我们不想把男装秀和女装的混在一起，所以他们分开举办。

Susie Lau: I wondered, though, has that conversation of the ‘blur’ ever come up? Because with this season in particular you could see the two merging together and you could readily imagine the ‘women’s’ pieces on men and the ‘men’s’ on women. I think closing the show with Hunter [Schafer] yesterday brought up this whole other dimension to the conversation around gendered clothing. / 我好奇，会不会有“混淆”这样的对话出现过？因为这一季你确实可以看到两者的融合，我们可以在男装想像女性的部分，也可以在女装里想像男装的部分。我认为亨特（跨性别模特）昨天的闭幕走秀更是将所有的维度以及跨性别的对话进行了完整地诠释。

Raf Simons: It’s not so much in our conversation but I think it’s just a natural thing in fashion now anyway. It’s more an idea of reality and we both are used to working with a narrative, and we both have worked in the past where one collection to the next would be a very different thing. But that doesn’t seem right for us right now... And with the state of the world, with Covid and now this war literally starting on the day of our show... I should say, we were anxious and uncomfortable about this war coming. / 这个在我们的对话里不是很多但我认为这在当今的时尚界已经很自然平常了。它不止是现实并且我们俩一直在一种描述性的状态下工作，我们过去就共同工作过并且下一个系列将会完全不同。但那并不意味着现在对我们来说就是正确的。况且当今世界还有新冠和局部战争发生。我们也为此感到焦虑。

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Susie Lau: Is it difficult to envisage an exciting fashion show in this climate? / 在这种情形下是不是很难想像做出一场令人兴奋的秀？

Raf Simons: In the end fashion is unnecessary and we do feel we have to temper that, but also we want to tell the reality to it that fashion is not connected to people’s life at this moment in time. It’s very complicated actually. I think because of Covid and then at ‘the end of Covid’ people want to party again and then there is this kind of boiling situation in terms of being in a war again... So, yes, it’s all got very complicated. / 最终时尚不是必须的，而且我们需要去接受的是现在的实际情况是很多人的生活现在与时尚没有关联，现实的情况有些复杂。我认为因为疫情，人们都非常想快速再次聚集在一起，但这个时候又有一些像战争这样的事情发生，所以实际上是很复杂的。

Miuccia Prada [To Raf]: I agree totally with what you’re saying. / 我完全同意你所说的。

Raf Simons: We were really shocked. When we were standing backstage, for me and I think for Miuccia as well, it was the most extreme kind of emotional feeling I’ve ever had in the context of doing a fashion show. I normally wake up and read an article from The New York Times. And on the day we were texting about it, and when you’re backstage and there are a lot of girls standing in front of you... I usually find it quite stressful before the show. / 我们感觉到很惊讶。当我们站在后台的时候，不论是于我还是Miuccia而言是一样的。这是我经历过情感上面最特别的一场秀。我通常醒来都会看一下《纽约时报》上的文章，并且，我们正在后台讨论一些事情，然后有很多女孩站在你面前。我通常在秀前都很有压力感。

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Susie Lau: But this time it was a kind of disconnected, out-of-body experience? / 但这次是感觉到有点失联，有些灵魂出窍的感觉？

Raf Simons: Yeah, out-of-body but at the same time I felt really calm about the show, like why would I over-worry about this fashion show? / 是的，灵魂出窍但我又对秀感觉到很平静，感觉为什么我要过于担心这场秀？

Miuccia Prada: With everything happening around us, the show was not relevant, basically. / 发生在我们周围的一切基本上都与这场秀无关了。

Raf Simons: I think sometimes we are so much in our own world that you have feelings that connect so much to your own situation, and that was kind of what happened to me yesterday. I had this feeling like ‘Why do I even worry about fashion shows or problems with the clothes?’ Suddenly it all felt irrelevant. / 我想有时候我们太在自己的世界里了，以至于你的感受与你自己的处境有如此多的联系，这就是昨天发生在我身上的事情。我的感觉像是“我为什么要担心这场秀或者衣服会有什么问题呢”突然感觉一切与之无关。

Susie Lau: There’s your worry about this show, right there! / 你看你还是很在意这场秀的，就刚刚你说的。

Miuccia Prada: Fashion is beyond us for the moment, to be honest. When we have a problem, whether it’s about sickness or death I am personally not one to say like it’s 1929, ‘Okay, the world is collapsing so we must have fun.’ I am not like that. / 时尚现在已经超脱于我们，坦白讲。当我们出现问题，不论是疾病还死亡，我个人都不会说像1929年时的样子，“好吧，世界已经瘫痪了，让我们开心点吧”我不是这样的人。

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Raf Simons: The other day we talked about why we do shows and I think the message for the women’s show was very much about the strength of women and the intelligence of women. In the men’s show we were talking about work, and the actors represent reality. But then we were thinking about this women’s show, that the models are also kind of performers. They are very talented women, each time manifesting what the brand wants to manifest. / 第二天当我们讨论做秀的原因，我想传达的信息是这场女装秀在表达女性力量和女性的智慧。在我们的男装秀，演员们呈现出来的是现实感。但我们思考女装秀的时候，这些模特实际上也是表演者。她们是非常有才华的女性，能够精准诠释品牌的内含。

Susie Lau: I totally relate to that message of intelligence and strength... It is important in my life always. I was thinking all of yesterday, because I was tracking social media and looking at the reactions to the fashion content and there was a lot of comments going, ‘How can you, on a day like this, be posting this? How can you be talking about fashion?’ And I thought when I came to this interview, well if we are to have a purpose, if THIS is our purpose, and if fashion is to do anything in the wider scheme of things then why not make it as high as Prada does? Prada being a platform for culture and for doing fashion in the best way you can. / 我非常赞同智慧和力量这两个词。在我们的生活中这两个词也扮演者重要的角色。我昨天一直在思考，因为我看了社交媒体对于时尚内容的反应，有很多诸如此类的评论“在这样的日子里你怎么能发布这个？你怎么解读时尚？”当我要来采访的时候，我在想我们一定6要有一个目地，如果采访不是我们的目地，那么时尚就是为什么不把很多事情做得像普拉达一样有高度和更有张力？因为普拉达是一个代表文化和在时尚领域你可以呈现时尚的一个平台。

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Miuccia Prada: When you make things for rich people, and we are rich fashion designers, how can you begin to talk about poverty? You can indirectly, for example, before we’ve tried to have a discussion around this with my work with the Fondazione – not that fashion is not appropriate but, really how can you talk about people dying, about hunger and homelessness, through clothes for rich people? / 当你为富人们做东西的时候，我们是有钱的时尚设计师，我们怎么去讨论贫穷？你可以间接地，比如在此之前我们一直在讨论关于我们Fondazione基金会的工作——不是时尚不合时宜，但你觉得你怎么可能通过富人穿得服饰去连接讨论穷人的饥饿、无家可归和贫穷所致的死亡？

Susie Lau: The clothes are not just for the rich. There’s an aspirational ambition and message that is important. But I think that’s what I meant, can we be comfortable anymore with fashion existing as it does? / 这些衣服不止是给富人穿得。这里会传递一些梦想和重要的信息。但我认为时尚的存在是让我们更舒适。

Miuccia Prada: I was never comfortable. The only thing that makes me more comfortable is when I can spend my money to do something clever. When it’s connected to the Fondazione, everything linked to education. I have to pretend sometimes, but I’m never comfortable. Let’s say I like my job, I like doing it. I am comfortable with a nice coat existing in the world. And in that way, I am comfortable with what I’m doing. Fashion is my instrument as Fondazione Prada is, through both I can express my ideas. / 我从来没有觉得舒服。唯一能让我觉得更舒服的事情是我花钱做了一些更聪明的事情。每当谈及Fondazione基金会的时候，所有的事情都和教育相关。有时候我要伪装，但我从未感觉舒适。比如，我热爱我的工作，我喜欢我所从事的一切。当我穿一件漂亮的外套，我感觉舒服地活在这个世界里，在这样的情形下，我对我所从事的事情很舒服。时尚是我Fondazione基金会的工具，通过这两者之间的结合我可以表达我的观点。

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Raf Simons: I have become more comfortable with it but I cannot say that I am comfortable all the way. And I share probably the same thinking as Miuccia. / 我现在感觉更舒适了，但我不能说我一直很舒适。我跟Miuccia的想法差不多。

Susie Lau: We all have to pretend, of course. We all have unease, no? / 我们当然都要不得不伪装。我们都有不安的时候，不是嘛？

Raf Simons: In the year 2000 I stopped my own brand for that reason. I was like – what am I doing? This is back in the day, but even then I had unease, Susie. I was thinking – I could maybe go somewhere else and do something totally different, not so much political, but do something more humanitarian. And I stopped the brand effectively because I started to feel great unease... / 2000年，我停掉了自己的品牌。我感觉我在干什么？今天这感觉又回来了，但是比那时候还不安，Susie。我在想，我也许可以去别的地方，做一些完全不同的事情，远离政治，做一些更人性化的事情并且我有效地停下了品牌，因为那时候我感觉真的很不好。

Susie Lau: How was that resolved? / 你当时怎么解决得？

Raf Simons: A few people around me said, ‘But you have to switch on your mind Raf, because there are many people that see what you do as some- thing inspiring and beautiful. You’re doing something interesting in this world. You’re creating something of beauty and beauty has something very important and positive. People need this.’ / 我周围有些人说“你需要换换你的思维Raf，因为有许多人看到你的设计会感觉它们是美的并且有灵感的。你正在做世界上有趣的工作。你在创造美，并且这种美非常的重要且正能量。人们需要这样美好的事物”。

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Susie Lau: That’s exactly my conviction re Prada in 2022. That it also encourages cultural innovation... It helps join up the dots, it encourages The New. / 这正是我对2022年PRADA大秀的真切感受。因为它也激励了文化创新并且帮助我们从点滴联系在一起并且激励了新事物的产生。

Raf Simons: The world is not a beautiful place sometimees. Maybe I am more at ease with this because I still think we are doing something very positive, especially if you stop and think about all of the negative things that are happening in this world. Prada is not for everybody for sure. But with the way fashion has evolved, because fashion became a very popular thing with this very enhanced public persona, in that sense, I think Prada means something for quite a lot of people now. I actively try to be more at ease with my job. In moments like right now, I am thinking about this a lot actually. Honestly, I did feel really confused yesterday. / 世界有时候并不美。也许我可以淡然处之的原因是我认为我一直在做一些正能量的事情，尤其是你不要去想在世界上所发生的任何负面的事情。PRADA当然不可能适合每个人，但是因为时尚一直在进行，当时间变成了一个非常流行的符号后，基于此，我认为普拉达现在对绝大多数人意义重大。我主动地对我的工作淡然处之。正如此时此刻，我实际上在思考很多问题。坦白讲，我昨天确实感到非常矛盾。

Susie Lau: It has been a very discombobulating period for the last two years and now there is another layer of confusion and dread. / 最近两年可以说是非常的让我疑惑而且现在又产生了新的困惑和恐惧。

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Miuccia Prada: Yes, but at the same time you get up each day and try to do your job well. And, for me, it is a job of just as much use as if you were a lawyer or accountant... Or a politician for that matter. It’s all the same in important re- spects. The job exists also in many moments of peace, in many moments of prosperity. It’s not that we are always in that moment, we live in a privileged part of the world – yes, we are super privileged – and in that sense, I do en- joy my job most of the time... / 是的，但是与此同时你每天准备好并尽力将工作做得很好。对我而言，不论你的职业是一个律师、财务或者是政客，只要你的工作是有价值的就好。工作在很多时间是平静的，很多时候是繁荣的。我们的工作状态不可能一成不变，我们生活在比较好的一部分，是的，我们已经很有优先权了，基于此，我觉得我大多数时间]都在享受我的工作。

Susie Lau: But? / 但是？

Miuccia Prada: But I always have in my mind this other aspect, which I’ve always had. / 但是我也经常在考虑一些其它的事情。

Susie Lau: So is it about checking our privilege? / 是关于被优待的事情嘛？

Miuccia Prada: I am proud of my job and I think it is a good thing to do. Whatever job you do, you have to do it well and be happy about it. I think it makes sense because this is our work, and it can bring pleasure and happiness, it can express the moment. It is an instrument for people to express themselves. But in the end, fashion is irrelevant when a friend is dying. / 我因我的工作而骄傲，我认为它是个美好的事情。不论你的工作是什么，你需要将工作做好并且要开心处之。我认为我们的工作很好是因为它能给我们带来快乐和幸福。它能表达时代精神。我们的工作可以让现代的人们很好的表达自己，但最后当一个朋友去世时，时尚是不相关的。

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Raf Simons: I’m thinking about what you just said about people going online right now... The people who are saying how can you even do a fashion show when the world is at war... Imagine an- other scenario, we stop all fashion. Does that make the world better? / 我一直在想你刚刚说得一个现象就是人们现在都去了线上。很多人正在说现在世界上还存在一些疫情和其它局势，你们为什么要做一场时装秀。想像一下，如果我们停止了所有的时尚活动，世界会更好嘛？

Miuccia Prada: It doesn’t. / 不会。

Susie Lau: And eliminating a whole ecosystem, many jobs, many people’s livelihoods. Beyond the pleasure and happiness that Miuccia talks about, all of our jobs are real tangible things. / 并且这样清除整个生态系统，许多工作，影响很多人的生计。除却Miuccia所谈及的快乐和幸福之外，我们的工作也是有形的实体。

Raf Simons: It’s not just the clothes. It’s the jobs you create. It’s the community and the opportunities. It’s so many different things. / 它不止是衣服，也是你创造的工作。也是一个群体和一些机会。也是许多不同层面的事情。

Miuccia Prada: It’s not as though we stop building homes, we stop building buildings, we stop building fur- niture, we stop building cars, we stop build- ing everything. Compared to the war every- thing is stupid, not only fashion. I don’t think that fashion is more stupid than furniture or cars. / 这并不是说我们停止建造房屋，我们停止建造建筑物，我们停止建造家具，我们停止建造汽车，我们停止建造一切。与战争相比，一切都是愚蠢的，不仅仅是时尚。我不认为时尚比家具或汽车更愚蠢。

Raf Simons: But still, it’s not a thing that directly helps in the context of, for example, this situation now evolving in Ukraine.... / 但是，实际上时尚产品也不能就当下形式直接帮得上什么大忙。

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Miuccia Prada: Culture can stop war. Culture helps us to un- derstand things, and to be better informed. Actually, one of the only things I really be- lieve is that the more people study and learn the more they will understand the world and therefore the world can be better. / 文化可以阻止战争。文化可以帮我们更好去理解事情并且让我们获得更加充沛的信息。实际上我真得非常相信人们如果能学习和研究更多就会更懂得这个世界并且世界也因此会变得更好。

Susie Lau: It’s important to restate that, perhaps especially now. / 这个真的非常的重要，特别是真对于当下。

Miuccia Prada: Fashion is everywhere... Film is an important form of art. / 时尚无处不在，电影也是艺术的重要表现形式。

Susie Lau: I know you said you didn’t want Prada to be a political platform, but it is a platform for that elevated culture you’re talking about. That kind of excellence. The values in fashion that you want to promote... / 我知道你说过你不想让PRADA变成一个政治平台，但是正如你所说它正在推崇一种文化，是一种卓越的理念，您想推广的时尚价值观。它已然超脱于时尚本身的价值了。

Miuccia Prada: I like to create an environment for these values but not directly. I wouldn’t put these kinds of statements in my show... / 我想去创造一种环境但是它们的价值不要体现的那么直接。但我不想把这些想法都装在我的秀里。

Susie Lau: Why? Is it too literal? / 为什么？太流于形式嘛？

Miuccia Prada: It’s too literal and too easy. I use the platform in a more subtle way. Like when we do Prada Mode events... Even the way we do clothes is respectful and introspective. For me this was a very serious show we just put on. / 这太流于表面而且过于肤浅。我把平台表达的更细微。像我们做普拉达的一些活动。甚至我们做衣服时都是怀着崇敬之心和反省的态度。于我而言这是非常严肃的事情。

Storm Reid

Matilda Anna Ingrid Lutz

Kim Kardashian

Mahmood

Taylor Russell

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Raf Simons: You have been around for a long time, Miuccia, much longer than me, so you are also aware of the importance of what that means for the people who are interested in that art, that culture. It’s something very rare – you’re very rare! What that means to an audience, there is this importance that you cannot really deny. / MIUCCIA比我从业时间更久，她也更能够意识到人们对艺术和文化的兴趣，也更能察觉到它们的重要性。时尚一定要有稀缺性！对于受众来说，这个特质非常重要，不可置否。

Miuccia Prada: Yes. But it’s like when you buy a beautiful painting, or a beautiful chair. Clothes are a reflection of your own culture. So I disagree that when there is war fashion should stop, because then at this point everything should stop. / 是的。它就像你买一幅美丽的画和一只漂亮的椅子。衣服反应出你自己的文化。所以我不同意因为一些事情就要停止时尚，如果这样的话所有的事情都可以停止了。

Susie Lau: I know Mr Armani voiced a similar conviction before his show... Now, going back to the Pra- da show itself, I’m interested that you were doing almost an archaeological dig of Prada and really digging deep as well... I know you have mined your own archives before, Miuccia, but you’re coming into it as this partner archaeologist, Raf... / 我知道之前Armani先生在这场秀前也有过类似的发声。现在，加到PRADA秀本身，我很想知道你几乎是做了一场关于PRADA品牌的考古挖掘而且是真正意义上的深度挖掘。我知道你之前深度发掘过你自己的系列，但是现在你又和你的搭档Raf一起去考古了。

Raf Simons: Partly, yes. / 部分上，是的。

Miuccia Prada: I think that part of the work we are doing now is actually a learning process to work together. So we started with the theoretical, up until now we are working with a different aspect of taking consideration of the history of the view. Maybe next season you will see it from a different point of view. We have adjusted working together more and more and so we look at it all from a different aspect. / 我认为我们的一部分工作实际上是在学习共同工作的过程。所以我们从理论出发一直在现在，我们一直有着不同的历史上的观点的思考。也许下一季你将看到不同的观点。我们一起工作并且一同整合，所以我们一直从不同的方面去看待问题。

Shira Haas & Storm Reid

Emma Mackey & Matilda Anna Ingrid Lutz

Mackenzie Davis & Katherine Waterston

Rita ora & Taika Waititi

Avani Gregg & Charili D'Amelio

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Raf Simons: In my opinion I have a feeling that the audience in general – and this audience is a huge audience compared to what it used to be – it’s staying more on the surface of things. And this is interesting. We need to engage with the fact that much of our audience is not going very deep in terms of their investigation into what fashion is. / 我认为我有种感受就是受众很大程度上都只看到事情的表面，这个很有趣。我们需要去接受事实，那就是大部分受众不想调查那么深，就是时尚到底是什么。

Susie Lau: But does that then mean that you just want what you do to be taken at a very surface level? / 但这是否证明了你现在恰好想把事情做在停留在表面的水平？

Raf Simons: No, it doesn’t. But we are aware that we can only exist with an audience. That’s something that I’ve always thought about. It makes no sense – and I know Miuccia thinks this, that I can say it for her – it makes no sense at all to do things if there is no audience for it. You do it for people, you want them to connect, otherwise why do it? Otherwise I might as well just do it in my home, in my back garden for nobody. / 不，现在不是。我们意识到我们不止只有一种受众。这也是我一直在思考的事情。而且我知道Miuccia也一直这么认为，所以我也想替她表达。如果没有受众群体，那么我们没必要做相关的事情。你为大家做了，还你想让他们参与，但大家为什么要参与呢？这和在我家里做，在我家后花园做却没人看是一个道理。

Susie Lau: You’re talking about something that’s overly heavy with concept? / 你把这个概念讲得非常深了？

Raf Simons: Not only with concept... / 不止是这个概念Miuccia Prada: I would use the word ‘useful!’ Whatever you do, it has to make sense to somebody. / 我想使用的单词是“有用”，不论你做什么，对别人来说这个事情的有意义。

Gus Kenworthy

Amelie Zilber

Deja Foxx

Katherine Waterston

Sinéad  Burke

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Raf Simons: Yes, you want to be useful. You do need to have a reality to it... Let’s be honest, I think we both have a history of doing extreme clothes. That’s in both Miuccia and my nature, let’s say... / 是的，你想要实用。你得满足现实需求。坦白讲，我认为我们俩都对时装的现实有相当深的研究。这就是存在于Miuccia和我的本质。

Miuccia Prada: More you than me! / 你比我更有发言权！

Susie Lau: You have had some quite extreme moments, Miuccia! / 你已经经历很多特别的时刻，Miuccia！

Miuccia Prada: I always pretend to do something useful but actually maybe what I consider useful, is in fact eccentric. / 我总是假装在做一些我认为是实用的但实际上也许是我认为实用的，实际上是很古怪的事情。

Raf Simons: It’s not that we don’t desire to push things to be even more extreme, but it just feels wrong now. We don’t even feel, ourselves, comfort- able with the idea of that. That’s something we’ve talked a lot about actually. / 实际上不是我们不想把很多事情推向极致，但是只是感觉现在是错的。我们甚至也感觉我们自己那样做会不舒服，所以我们讨论了很多此类问题。

Susie Lau: But maybe our idea of what is extreme or even conceptual has also shifted over the years. What was crazy 15 years ago, isn’t now. It’s very hard to shock people now. / 但是也许我们极致的观点或者一些概念已经随时代变化了。15年前很疯狂的想法，现在看起来并不是那么疯狂，现在很难再去震撼大众。

Miuccia Prada: For me, shock is classic. Shocking is a beautiful white shirt. / 于我而言，震撼=经典。震撼就是一件漂亮的白衬衫。

Luca Guadagnino

Kiara Nirghin

Raquel Willis

Fedez & Chiara Ferragni

Juliia Marino & Gus Kenworthy

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When I brought up the words ‘real men,’ which I had noted in the AW/22 ‘Body of Work’ menswear collection’s press release, that’s when the conversation began to heat up. Mrs Prada was adamant that they would never use those two words, loaded with machismo and gender politics pitfalls.

当我提及的两个单词“男儿本色”，我把这个词记录在PRADA 2022年秋冬大秀Body of Work发布会里。Prada女士非常的坚定以后不会再用这两个词，因为言语里充满了大男子主义和性别政治陷阱。

When I picked up on this phrase initially, my reading of it was that Prada tongue was firmly in cheek. That the Man in question, the actors that populated the show, spanned the gamut from Lynchian protagonist Kyle MacLachlan to young actor Asa Butterfield and his Sex Education-derived awkwardness, means that ‘Real’ is very much open to interpretation.

最初挑这组词的时候，我读它的时候感觉它就是为普拉达应运而生得。男性不仅让场秀非常受欢迎，从林奇主义资深影星凯尔·麦克拉克伦到年轻演员阿萨·巴特菲尔德以及他出演的剧集《性教育》引发得尴尬都对“真正的”一词进行了很好的诠释。

And on this day where men are once again, regrettably being asked to ‘step up, man up,’ be conscripted and say teary farewells to families, here we were debating about this imaginary notion of ‘real men’ when for the most part, they may not define themselves as such. As evidenced by their menswear show back in January, the whole point that Raf and Mrs P seem to be asserting is that what is overtly masculine actually hides a wealth of doubt.

现如当说起来“挺住，男子汉一点”的大家时候竟然是很多男孩离家独立成长的时候。这里我们争论这个在我们想象中的概念“男儿本色”不是这么定义的。在1月份的男装秀场，Raf先生和Prada女士想呈现的实际上是一种看起来毫无疑问的荷尔蒙气息。

What’s underneath those enlarged shoulders of sculpted leather? What does it say when a blue-collar boiler suit is rendered in powder pink? And when these workwear derived silhouettes oscillate between the bodies of Jeff Goldblum and Thomas Brodie-Sangster – youth and experience jostling with one another – there’s something of an arch interpretation (and provocation) to the expression ‘manning up.’ Here were ‘real men’ of cinematic imaginings wearing clothes that are real in the sense that they are true.

、

这些加宽的肩部和硬朗的皮纹下隐藏了什么？当蓝领连体套装变成粉色代表了什么？当这些工作穿着的男装轮廓在杰夫·高布伦和托马斯·桑斯特之间切换——青春和成熟彼此交融——这些弧度诠释（或者挑战）都在表达“阳刚”。这些原来专属于影片里的“男儿本色”穿着在现实生活中体现的淋漓尽致。

而更多关于Miuccia Prada与Raf Simons的访谈实录，未完待续，敬请期待《Arena HOMME+时尚竞技场》10月刊……

采访与撰稿 | Susie Lau

翻译 | 刘安东、鲁向成

审校 | 崔辅兼

责任编辑 | 谢佳晋

交互 | Adrian Cui

图源 | 品牌