跨越An Ideology of Prada与Body of Work的幕后，专访Miuccia Prada（下）

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当今年年初，PRADA品牌带来了精彩的2022FW时装大秀“An Ideology of Prada”系列女装与“Body of Work”系列男装后，《Arena HOMME+》有幸探寻幕后，成为该季秀后首家媒体专访两位传奇设计大师Miuccia Prada与Raf Simons，亦拍摄了MIU MIU品牌该季服饰的全球男士杂志的首刊封面。而在上期《Arena HOMME+时尚竞技场》9月刊我们已经分享了关于本次采访的部分吉光片羽，更多精彩段落，请详看下文，为翻译节选。

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访谈实录 / Interview Record

Susie Lau: The word ‘real’ is problematic. What’s ‘real’ for one person isn’t ‘real’ for other people... And in that men’s show press release, the term ‘real man’ really struck me. Because it’s a very loaded term. Who’s a real man? / “真实”这个单词有问题。一个人是“真实”另一个人不是“真实”这是为什么？并且在男装秀的发布会里，“男儿本色”这个术语真的吸引到了我。因为它是一个意味深长的术语。谁是真男儿？

Raf Simons: It probably was a bit of a mistake for us to put that expression in it because as you say it can be read in many different ways. / 也可能是我们的表达有误，正如你所说，不同的人有不同的解读方式。

Miuccia Prada: Listen, it’s impossible we used that expression, because we’re in a moment where strict definitions can’t be applied especially in gender. / 我们不可能再用这种表达了，因为当下很难对性别进行准确的定义。

Raf Simons: In reality we mean men making themselves real. / 在现实中，我们所说的男人就是他们自己。

Miuccia Prada: Yes, we meant people in real life. How they express themselves in real life. Real necessity of people living in reality. / 是的，我们指的是真实生活中的人。他们在现实生活中如何表达自己。活在现实生活中的人的需求。

Raf Simons: We don’t touch on that classical judgment in terms of lots of people in the real world being seen as a real man. We don’t say it in that sense. / 我们不触碰传统意义上很多人在现实生活中对男儿本色的判断。我们不从那个层面表达。

Susie Lau: Within the Prada universe I thought you guys were almost taking the piss out of the notion of ‘the real man.’ He doesn’t exist, of course. / 在普拉达的宇宙里，我想你们已经把“男儿本色”的概念去掉了。他应该不存在的。

Miuccia Prada: Every human being is a different person, no matter the presentation, sexuality, the way you’re behaving, the way you’re feeling. So for me that is so completely clear. / 每个人都是不同的个体，不论他的呈现、性别还是你感受的行为方式。对我来说这个是非常明确的。

Susie Lau: Thoughts on men – rappers and footballers – wearing looks off the women’s runways? Just a temporary trend? / 关于男性的思考——说唱歌手和足球运动员——从女装秀场出现，这是当下的潮流嘛？

Raf Simons: I don’t think that at all. It’s not a trend, it’s all an evolution. I mean this conversation is about Prada, but I have to go here to referencing my brand, which technically for 25 years has been mostly men’s clothes. Now we have almost as many women following us. It seems to me like it’s almost the other way around. I wasn’t offering women’s clothes so I couldn’t at that point speak about men buying women’s clothes, which is very much the case these days in fashion. It’s all an evolution and I think it’s a fantastic, exciting evolution. / 我不这么认为，这不是一个趋势，这是全方位的进化。因这这次的对话有关PRADA，但我想提及一下我个人的品牌。可以说25年以来它绝大多数都是男装。现在也有很多女性关注我们。在我看来，这几乎就是另一面。我不为女性提供服装所以我也说不清楚男性去买女装，这可能是这些年的时尚现象。这些进行我觉得很奇妙也是让人兴奋的进化。

Miuccia Prada: But you’re working at a point where you never push that, and me neither. / 但你从未在你的工作中推进这些，我也是。

Susie Lau: It’s a reflection of what is happening and how people, if you’re non-binary and born biologically a man for example, you don’t feel like going into the men’s department of a store and being restricted by that. / 它反映了当下人们正在发生的事情，没有边界性和对男性的特殊界定。

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Miuccia Prada: Does Prada in the catwalk show, push the boundaries on that? No. I push the boundaries on freedom, I understand that probably the pressure to accelerate makes changes happen. Earlier I wanted to do something that was more sensitive, open possibilities, trying to make men less ‘Alpha male.’ But I never wanted to dress them like women just to say, ‘I’m very avant-garde’ and ticking a box. / 在PRADA的走秀里我是否强调了边界？我没有，我只是推进了自由。我理解加速变革的压力。一开始我也想做一些更敏感和开放的的可行性，我想让男性不那么绝对“男权”。但我从未想让他们穿得像女性并且说“我非常先锋”。

Raf Simons: It’s not only about the gender, but also about tradition and the way of traditional thinking in that context. In my brand, it was almost a natural evolution that when you started in men’s there was actually not so much difference be- tween the clothes. Because they have always been kind of both genders anyway, and it has not so much to do with the idea of a man or woman but more the idea of authenticity or a form of thinking in terms of a fashion proposal, because it’s not that the world is full of men and women that are so free and open-minded in the context of what we are speaking. I wish. / 这不只是有关性别也有关传统和人们对这些传统观念的思考。在我的品牌里，这些几乎都是自然进化。当你说及男装时，实际上我认为服装的区别不太大。因为无论如何也是两种性别，男性与女性的关联其实不大，最重要的问题是就时尚来说的表达方式。在充满男性和女性的世界里还没有如此的自由和开放地表达每个人的内心。我倒希望大家可自由表达。

Susie Lau: We all wish! Well, sadly, not all... / 我们都希望！很遗憾……

Raf Simons: Every strong designer has a particular point of view on clothes, and therefore on people and it almost seems these days, and I find it very forced and very wrong in most cases, that people just feel the need to do col lections and shows that you need to kind of pinpoint all the particulars of anything, being politically correct. But it’s a very fragile thing to talk about, I think. / 每一个强大的设计师自己对服装都有独特的观点，因此几乎在这些年，我发现人们在大多数情况下是非常错误和压迫地让他们只感觉需要做一系列的衣服去展示出来一些特别的点，以期达到政治正确。我认为这非常经不起推敲。

Miuccia Prada: Also we could come across as very superficial. And I don’t believe we are. / 我们觉得这样很肤浅。我相信我们不是这样。

Raf Simons: I do think that you have a history with the brand showing different body types and ages of women, Miuccia. 我记得很清楚MIUCCIA你有一场秀是展示女性不同年纪和身材的。

Miuccia Prada: My first show! / 我的第一场秀！

Raf Simons: And later. And many, many, many years later. / 然后，很多很多很年之后。

Susie Lau: The Lara Stone collection! / LARA STONE系列。

Raf Simons: Lara Stone, and so many, many more. You know the Prada brand had originally a lot of interest in introducing new women. And they come in sometimes at a very young age be- cause they’re new in the business. But then people are only picking up on these women, sometimes 10 - 15 years later. / LARA STONE以及很多很多。你知道普拉达品牌最开始激发了很多新时代女性的兴趣。她们有时候非常年轻因为她们是新生代力量。但这些女性直到10-15年之后才引起人们的关注。

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Susie Lau: I think everyone in our industry is struggling with the word reality. What is ‘real?’ Real is a very loaded term and, for people in the fashion industry, real currently means ‘Okay we’ve got to have a Black girl, we’ve got to have a Chinese’... it’s a sort of return to a United Colours of Benetton type of casting. Honestly, it can feel like box-ticking. I’ve written about feeling like I’ve only been invited to events because of my ethnicity... My confusion... / 我认为在我们行业很多人对现实这个词比较挣扎。什么是 “真实的”？真实的其实是一个术语，对于时尚行业的人们来说，真实的当下意味着“好的，我们需要有一个黑人女孩，但是我们实际有一个中国女孩”有种回归 “United Colours of Benetton” 的感觉。坦白讲，我感觉像在打勾。我曾经写过这种感受，我能被邀请参加一些活动是因为我是亚裔。这也是我的困惑。

Raf Simons: Because we need to capture a more diverse vision, because it really was a mistake many years ago. It was a mistake from everybody in high fashion. I am always embracing this in my brand, and you know very well the casting of my brand for many years. I always have to take responsibility for how I see it as a creative suggestion to the world. But I am so fascinated the moment the show is done, what happens afterwards? I am completely fascinated if I see my clothes afterwards in a completely different context, different style, different people. I am fascinated and some- times it inspires me more, sometimes I think, ‘Oh, I didn’t think about that.’ So in that sense I don’t think that it’s only about the actual suggestion on stage. I don’t think that fashion is like that anymore. Fashion has a whole new life beyond designers. / 因为我们需要捕捉多元化视角，因为这也是很多年前的一个错误。这也是在高级时装界里每个人的错误。我一直有责任需要让世界看到一些创意的见解。但我总会被当下做完的秀而吸引，然后接下来会发生什么？如果在秀后我看到得是完全不同的的语境、风格和不同的人，那我完全会被吸引住。我被吸引的同时，有时候也会被感染。有时候我会想“噢，我怎么没想到会是这样”。所以，我不认为那仅是在舞台上的建议。我也不再认为那是高级时尚。时尚是超脱于设计师以外的全新生活。

Susie Lau: It has a creative life beyond the catwalk for sure. / 在T台之外还有其它创意的生活，这是肯定的。

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Raf Simons: One thing is the designer’s presentation, but there is so much around it now and I think that fashion by definition now is not just about the catwalk. I think it used to be but not anymore. / 有件事情是设计师的表达方式，但现在不拘泥于此。而且我认为时尚从现在的定义上来说不仅是T台秀。我过去认为有局限，但现在和将来都不再是了。

Susie Lau: Can I ask you both, with the menswear is it about envisioning the men’s proposition as a prospective partner or something you’re attracted to? As if you were looking for the thing that you’re attracted to in an ideal sexual way. / 我能问你们俩，对于男装，它是关于设想男性的主张作为潜在的伴侣还是你被吸引的东西？就好像你正在寻找你以一种理想的性方式被吸引。

Raf Simons: No, no! Not always. / 不，不！一直都不是。

Miuccia Prada: Actually not, when I do men, more so than if I do women’s, I imagine myself as a young girl, 15 years ago. Now I’m old so I imagine myself young today. And I do the same thing, imagine myself as a man, what would I wear? So I imagine that. / 实际上不是，当我做男装的时候比女装多，我经常把自己想像成15年前的年轻女性。现在我年纪大了所以我把自己想像成年轻时候。现在我做同样的时候，我把自己设定为一名男性，我想穿什么呢？所以我是这样来做男装的。

Susie Lau: Did you find Jeff Goldblum sexy? / 你觉得杰夫·高布伦性感嘛？

Raf Simons: Yes. / 性感。

Susie Lau: I mean, he had quite the strut! / 我想说他很有自己的风格！

Raf Simons: To me he feels like a very young person and I like that a lot. I think that’s very attractive, when someone can keep a very youthful spirit. / 于我而言，他就是一个非常年轻的人，我很喜欢这种活力四射的感觉。我认为这样非常有魅力，一个人总能保持年轻的活力。

Susie Lau: I guess that was the dichotomy as well, because in that show you had all this workwear, very solid things but then they sort of started deviating into something more extreme. I felt like it was almost contradicting what it was trying to do. It was workwear, but not as you know it. / 我猜那也是分别呈现的状态，因为走秀时穿得都是秀款时装，主题明确但是他们将他们演绎到极致。我感觉看起来是非常矛盾的，因为想像和实际的呈现大不相同。

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Raf Simons: Yeah, because what we very much wanted to do with that collection was to not really see those clichés in that sense. Why would we see a businessman suit which is related to work and a working man, as a higher thing than for example a workman’s overall, which is as much to respect and like? Why would that not be seen as much as serious fashion in the context today? Why can that not have a presence? Why can’t you have overalls seen as luxurious to an audience as a suit? Why is that? That was the question we have to ask ourselves. Why can that also not be a classic, because we’re all entrenched in the codes of that world, so why can it not be a fashion thing, like a suit can be very much a fashion thing if you take it away from its traditional approach? It seems like the workwear overall always remains as the workwear overall. / 对，因为我们不想做些陈词滥调的东西。为什么我们看到商务套装就要想到工作和职场人士，它可以远高于商务男性本身。为什么不能看成是当下的严肃的时尚话题？为什么不能有一个表达形式？为什么套装不可以成为奢华的产品？为什么会有这样的想法？我们经常问自己。为什么不能是一个经典的衣服，因为我们都在传承全球的经典风格。为什么套装不能像时尚单品一样随时可穿搭？工装仍然是仅被当成职业装来看待。

Miuccia Prada: No it can be both. In the 1980s, I myself, because I didn’t like anything on the market, I only wore workwear pieces or children’s pieces. Anything that wasn’t something for everyone. For me a uniform of any kind, any- thing that was not obviously acknowledged in fashion for a long time. / 不，它可以两者兼顾的。在80年代，我自己因为不喜欢市场上的任何东西，我只穿工装单品或者童装。不是所有的产品都适合每一个人。于我而言，任何形式的制服在很长时间内看起来都不是与时尚明显挂勾的。

Susie Lau: And how is that uniform in 2022? / 2022年的制服是什么样的？

Miuccia Prada: Now with sustainability everything is even more expensive because for example re-nylon costs much more than the non-sustain- able version. If you want to do anything re- cycled or sustainable it’s more expensive. Professional people making clothes, making bags and shoes – the professional skills of these people is something that really fascinates me. I love these people and I love the workers in my company. They are passion- ate, they stay late in the night until they have found the perfect way to do the shoulder, or to make some fabric work. So I really am fas- cinated and in love with people who love their own job. / 现在基本上所有东西都更贵了，比如再生尼龙成本远高于不可再生版本。如果你想做任何可再生或者可持续资源，都是更贵的。专业的服装师、做包和鞋的专业人士以及这些有专业技能的人真的是非常吸引我。我爱这群人也爱我公司的员工。他们富有激情，他们经常熬夜直到把每一个衣肩或者一个织物做到尽善尽美。所以我也经常被这些投入工作“因为爱，所以爱”的人所深深吸引。

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Raf Simons: It was something we very much wanted to show, is that we don’t want to see it as a hierarchy in the sense that, ‘Oh, a CEO job is much more important and powerful.’ That was the main point of that show, we wanted to show all these different kinds of things that can relate to work in a sartorial way. They’re all of the same importance to us. / 这些是我们非常想在秀里展示的内容，我不想展示一些阶级类的内容，比如“哦，一个CEO更重要或者更权威”。我们的秀的重点是展示男装制艺过程中不同的内容和技艺。所有的这些对我们来说至关重要。

Miuccia Prada: We have teams in Tuscany who are just so dedicated. One of our team made me this for Christmas. So he does bags and made this for the pleasure of doing it. How can you not be in love with somebody who spends their night doing this work? / 在托斯卡纳有我们非常敬业的团队。我们其中的一个团队为我做圣诞礼物。他认为做包是一种乐趣。你怎么能不爱这种晚上都在尽心尽力去工作的人呢？

编者按

Miuccia goes over to get an intricately made wooden model of an early 19th century delivery car bearing the Prada name in a florid Art Nouveau font, from the time when Mario Prada was making leather trunks and travel accessories and selling them from the store in Galleria Vittorio Emanuele II in Milan. It’s one of the few brands that doesn’t rely on ‘centenary’ celebrations and century-spanning heritage to give it historic heft. When Miuccia was admiring this wooden miniature model, representative of another world, another time made for her by a Tuscan craftsman, it seemed like a quaint nod to the history of her family’s lineage. It’s intricate. It’s small but that care translates to the bigger picture. From paying attention to what’s small and tangible in the hands to the largeness of an all-encompassing listed company, whose profits are monitored at every turn, Miuccia has full grasp of it all.

Miuccia 走过去拿了一个精工细做的木制19世纪小汽车模型，上面印有华丽新艺术风格字体的PRADA品牌名字，自马里奥·普拉达时代就开始制造皮箱与旅行工具并将产品由米兰的艾曼纽二世拱廊售出。很少有这样的品牌可以不依赖“百年老店”的光环并且经过世纪的传承仍然保有历史的厚重感。当Miuccia开始欣赏这个木制迷你模型，它代表了另一个世界，由工匠技艺带给她的时代，这个好像是她的家族传承给她的历史之一。是精致的，是可以从微观放大到更宏大的愿景。从手心里微小而脆弱的到多元化上市公司，它的利润在每个转型期都尽在Miuccia掌握之中。

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访谈实录 / Interview Record

Susie Lau: So... Mrs Prada you once said that you would come into a meeting naked to me... / 所以Prada女士，你曾说会光着跟我开会……

Miuccia Prada: Yes! / 对！

Raf Simons: Yes, she says it all the time! / 是，她一直这么说。

Miuccia Prada: It’s so clever because everyone would shut up. The problem is you have to be clever and cultivated. / 这么做很聪明，因为每个人都会闭嘴。问题是你必须得聪明和有修养。

Raf Simons: But going back 15 years ago, when we were on this man and woman thing, it’s not so much a man and woman thing. At the end, still a very traditional way of thinking for most men in the world, is to put on a suit and want to be dressed sophisticated. That’s something I have been fascinated with for several years now. How come we don’t see a CEO walking in the door of a meeting in, let’s say, a green leather overall from Prada? / 回到15年前，当我们还在讨论这些男装女装的事，当时真的没有这么多可讨论的点。最后，大多数人的想法仍然是非常传统的，就是穿上正装然后想看起来着装得体。这是一直吸引了我几年的事情至到现在。我们怎么可能看不到一个CEO从会议室的门走进来，比如，穿了一套绿色的PRADA品牌的皮制套装？

Susie Lau: Will we ever see that day do you think? Is it the evolution of sartorial codes? / 这种男装的进化方式我们什么时候可以看到呢？

Raf Simons: If I didn’t believe it then I’d stop, because I do see a lot of evolution over the decades. / 如果我不相信我就停掉，因为这几十看我看了太多的进化。

Miuccia Prada: But this is a very strange moment in history, because in the past men were much more flamboyant than women. / 但在历史上这是一个非常奇怪的时刻，因为过去男士都比女士更耀眼。

Susie Lau: Dandyism. / 丹蒂主义（意指花花公子或纨绔子弟的做派）。

Miuccia Prada: Much earlier! / 过早了！

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Susie Lau: Even the Middle Ages... Usually most people that don’t think further back than their own lifetime do not remember. People are not going to think a lot about the 16th century or 18th century. Me, it’s something I’m very interested in. / 甚至是中世纪。通常大多数人对与他们自己生活无关的事情完全记不住。人们才不关心16世纪还是18世纪呢。我对这些事情非常感兴趣。

Miuccia Prada: Probably they think that dressing like that they are powerful. But for sure, men since then decided not to change and decided to go with the suit. The opposite of flamboyant... / 可能他们认为着装看起来很有力量。但确实，男士从那时起决定不改变了，都着西服套装。不要穿着过于明艳……

Raf Simons: Power dressing in itself is a very interesting thing because when you think of power dressing, it probably means wearing a suit, because they feel powerful and then you come to a board meeting where there are 23 people all in black suits or grey suits, ties, white shirts – it looks powerful, but they end up the same. Shouldn’t the person with decision-making, look different? / 有力量的着装本身是非常有趣，因为当你想起有力量的着装，它可能意为着穿套装，因为他们感到有力量并且你来到董事会，里面有23个人都会身着黑色或者灰色套装、系好领带、穿着白衬衫——这看起来非常有力量，但是他们都是一样的。难道这些有决策权的人不应该看起来不一样嘛？

Susie Lau: That’s why emperors used to dress a certain way. / 这就是为什么皇帝穿得别具一格。

Raf Simons: To be more unique, surely is to be more powerful. / 更独特，当时也就更有权力。

Miuccia Prada: In nature males tend to be much more beautiful. But do you remember the Rossellini movie The Taking of Power by Louis XIV about the power of dressing? He wanted to control the noble people around France and so they had to come to the court dressed up. / 在自然界，雄性更漂亮。但你们记得罗西里尼电影《路易十四的崛起》里关于权力的着装嘛？因为路易十四想控制法国的贵族所以他们不得不穿着盛装来宫庭。

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Raf Simons: For me the powerful one is the one who is able to put himself or herself out of the traditional expectations of society and other people, and therefore I would find the most powerful one to... / 与我而言，有权力的人就是可以将自己打造得超出这个社会和人们对他/她的期望。因此我想找到最有权利的人去…

Susie Lau: To not conform is also a form of power... / 不顺从也是一种权利…

Raf Simons: For me yes. / 对我来说，是。

Miuccia Prada: For me, no. Ideas are powerful. / 对我来说，不是。理想是有权力的。

Raf Simons: Of course, of course, but in the context of the clothes, I do think a lot of men stepping into board meetings, they wear a suit because they think they are expected to wear a suit. / 当然，当然。就衣服而言，我认为许多人去参加董事会，他们穿上套装是因为他们认为他们想被看到穿着正装。

编者按

The obsession with delineating the power and responsibility between Miuccia Prada and Raf Simons has been THE inevitable hot topic since the announcement of this impossible conversation’ between the two co-collaborators. Every collection has since been dissected to death to the point where both Miuccia and Raf are quite openly tired of the simplification of their working relationship. It seems people have literally taken it for gospel when Miuccia once said it was like working in the structure of ‘Me from the waist up, him from the waist down.’

自两位巨头宣布合作以来，业内对于Miuccia Prada和Raf Simons之间对权力和责任的划分一直是不可避免的热门讨论话题。从此以后，每个系列都被剖析殆尽，以至于Miuccia和Raf都非常公开地表达了，他们的工作不仅仅只是简单的工作关系。Miuccia曾这样评价他们的工作组合“我在腰部以上，他从腰部向下”，大从也把他们的工作当作福音来看待。

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Instead, I’m more interested in their dynamic. If their collaboration as two like-minded designers, with a mutual admiration that spans decades, is a unique one, then what ensues when they actually get down to the business of working with one another? Are they like siblings – brother and sister – which one is the elder and which one is the younger? Who’s the McCartney, and who’s the Lennon? Who’s sensei and who’s the disciple? If they argue, who backs down first? On this occasion, if you were fishing for signs of conflict, you’d be hard pressed to find any. One would often finish their sentences. The other might talk over the other in vehement agreement. And none of it felt premeditated. The dynamic might have been different at the beginning when they were working remotely and seen next to each other, floating in a digital live stream sphere. The impossible conversation has therefore become a living reality.

相关，我对他们的磁场更有感兴趣。如果他们的合作只是两个设计师的头脑碰撞并且互相欣赏数十年，这虽然是特别的组合，但是什么能让他们也将商业合作紧密联合呢？他们像兄妹一位比另一位年长一些？谁是麦卡特尼，谁又是列侬（披头士乐队的两位灵魂人物）？哪一位老师，哪一位徒弟？如若争辩，谁先低头？基于此，如果你想要找出破绽，你要找到关键点。一位总是经常快速完成对话。另一位总是对于他们的共同理念夸夸其谈。没有人感觉是提前安排好的。磁场可能是刚开始有些不同，因为最开始他们远程工作通过数字直播形式沟通。因此，不可能的对话已成为活生生的现实。

访谈实录 / Interview Record

Susie Lau: If we talk about male presence then, Mrs Prada, you obviously have two quite different male presences in your life, Mr Bertelli and now Raf. How do you deal with two very different male energies in your life working at Prada? / 如果我们讨论男性的表达，那么Prada女士，你明显在你的生命里有过两任不同的优秀设计师：Bertelli，现在是Raf。在你跟他们合作PRADA品牌的时候，跟这两位不同的男性能量有什么样不同的感受？

Miuccia Prada: I am perfectly comfortable. I am comfortable because I have definitely no problems. Here in Prada and Fondazione Prada we are used to working with so called ‘difficult people,’ usually they’re the ones that can make a difference. / 我感觉完美融洽。我很舒服是因为我没发现有任何问题。在PRADA，我们经常与不同的人工作。通常每个人都可以有自己的闪光点。

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Raf Simons: I have to confirm that really loud. She’s very comfortable in general. / 我真得要大大地赞。她总体上真的让人感觉非常舒适。

Susie Lau: I just wondered how, I guess obviously not that you need to be defined by your gender, you are your own person but to have this different energy in the creative process? / 我刚在猜想，你不仅要限定你的性别，还要有自己独立的人格，而且还要有不同的创意灵感，这些都是怎么做到得？

Miuccia Prada: That is the beauty of it, nobody obliged us to do this, we decided to work together and that should create new energy. For sure the beauty of it is why we chose to enlarge possibilities to discuss, to help each other. / 这就是美丽的本谛。没有人强迫我们做这些事情。我们决定在一起工作并且创作更多新的能量。当然，美是核心，因为它能让我们把可能性这么大而且彼此帮助。

Susie Lau: How has it changed over the last two years, like the dynamic? I’m obviously hugely fascinated with the dynamic. As everyone is. / 过去两年有哪些改变，比如磁场方面？我对你们之间有的磁场和大家一样好奇。

Miuccia Prada: It’s getting deeper because when we began, there was Covid. The more we work together the more we get used to working together and I was always comfortable, but I understand the more time passes the more we can deeply discuss things. / 这话题有深度了，因为我们开始合作的时候出现了疫情。我们在一起工作越多就会理解彼此更多而且我总是感受到怡然自得。但是我理解随着时光流逝，我们可以讨论出更多有深度的事情。

Raf Simons: I think we challenge each other further, besides other things. / 我认为我们彼此挑战越来越多，除了工作之外。

Susie Lau: You mean push each other? Or sort of challenge each other on certain decisions? / 你是指督促彼此？还是在具体的决策上彼此挑战。

Raf Simons: We challenge each other but also reinforce each other, for me I feel surer about something when you feel sure about it. / 我们彼此挑战但又携手共进。对我而言，如果你感觉到事情很明确我会感觉到更有信心。

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Miuccia Prada: Thank you very much! / 非常感谢！

Raf Simons: We are both used to, for many decades, to make our own decisions. I think it’s also curiosity, interest and respect because we have always admired each other’s work and I think that when you are doing it for a long time, you get into a kind of, I wouldn’t say a system, but you are who you are and I’m totally fascinated with somebody next to me who can shake me up, who makes me think deeper and further, who’s different. I find that very fascinating. Also she says things to me which afterwards make me think again. We are both very assertive and we have very specific things in mind and to be honest, they match great, which is not what I was expecting before I started. I wanted to be prepared for it, if it was going to be difficult, but it hasn’t been difficult ever. / 我们俩在过去很多年都习惯了自己做主。我们的合作为什么这么让人好奇、感兴趣或者受到并重是因为我们一直彼此欣赏并且我认为当工作时间很长了以后，你就进入了一种状态，我不能说是固化了思维，但是你会被周边的人所吸引，因为她能震撼到你，她可以让你思考得更深更远，她很与众不同。我发现这样很让我着迷。并且她每次跟我说过得事情都会事后引发我的思考。我们两个都很果断并且我们都很有想法且诚实。我们非常合拍，我从未想到我们一起工作后会这么融洽。有些事情当我觉得很困难的时候，在我做得时候就感觉再也不难了。

Susie Lau: I was trying to think if there are any other design partnerships that you may be like, not model on or look to, but I was trying to think of a parallel, it was very difficult. / 我试着在想，如果有一种其它的设计合作关系，你们可能不像是模特或者衣服的配合，我想说你们是一种平衡的关系。这真的完全不同。

Miuccia Prada: There are none! Everybody is doing collaborations, but this is deeper, and it’s the first example... / 史无前例！每个人都在合作，但这次非常有深度，而且之前从未有过……

Raf Simons: It’s not the same nature of others. Most people they start up together. / 每个人的本质不同。大多数人就是聚拢。

Susie Lau: In the art world you do have the duos. Or you are a couple, lovers... / 在艺术的世界，你们会做组合还是你们会成双成对出现，还是恋人视角……

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Raf Simons: But we also made it simple for ourselves before we started, we said if there was really something that one of the two hates, we are not going to do it. There are so many other things we can do. / 我们在开始合作之前就把事情看得很简单。我们谈过，如果两个人很有可能成为仇家，那就不要合作了。我们可以从很多不同形式来进行合作。

Miuccia Prada: Or he says something to me, then I take the time to think about it... Is he actually serious? / 他跟我说过得事情，我总是花时间去思考。他是认真的嘛？

Raf Simons: It happens, and it happens regularly, and I think that it’s a good thing because no matter who you are... / 这样的事情经常发生并且我认为这是一个好事儿，因为我们重视彼此。

Miuccia Prada: It sounds like an idyllic relationship but it actually is... / 听起来像是亲密无间，实际上也是这样的。

Susie Lau: Is it like there’s a big sister and little brother? I’m sorry that I want to try to lock down this dynamic. I’m a journalist, we’re used to la- bels... is it like a disciple and their sensei... / 像大姐姐和小弟弟嘛？对不起我只是想锁定这个磁场。我是一个记者，我们习惯打标签……像一个徒弟和他们的老师？

Raf Simons: You want to label it? / 你想打标签？

Miuccia Prada: A title? / 一个称呼？

Susie Lau: Yeah, like a sort of dynamic. Let’s say an archetypal dynamic that you can identify with... not an old married couple, surely not? / 是的，像某种磁场。我想说的是一种原始的对于你们可以辨识身份的磁场…而不是一对老夫老妻对不对？

Raf Simons: NO! / 当然不是！

Susie Lau: Okay, not a title, what’s the dynamic between you two? Like the energy between two people, you know like a couple, lovers have a dynamic. Siblings have a dynamic. / 不是一个称呼，你们两个之间的磁场是什么？像两个人之间的能量，你知道像一对夫妻，情侣之间也是有磁场的，亲人之间也有。

Raf Simons: I think co-conspirators maybe. / 我认为是密谋者的结合，也许。

Susie Lau: Partners in crime? / 像犯罪团伙那样？

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Miuccia Prada: We don’t have to analyze everything. In our job we are used to working with people who we trust. Ours is a higher level of collabora- tion, but we are both used to working with other people so it’s not that it is so strange, it isn’t strange at all. Actually I am happy be- cause I have a collaborator that is clever; I trust what he says, because he is a great de- signer. So it is perfect because he is the dream collaborator. Somebody who helps you. Also he pushes me further and makes me change my ideas. He makes me go outside of my own idea, which I think I often started to get bored with. So because of him I have a new energy, and exchange and I have new ideas. / 我们没必要去分析所有的事情。在我们的职场里，我们一直跟很多信任的人一起工作。我们是高层面的合作，但我们俩过去都跟其他人合作，所以我们现在一起合作很多人不明白这很正常。实际上，因为你的合作伙伴是一个聪明人我非常开心。我信任他说得，因为他是一名杰出的设计师。他是一个完美并理想的合作伙伴。有些人可以帮助你，他促使我想得更远并且改变我的想法。他让我跳出固定思维，我之前厌倦墨守陈规。因为他，我有了新的能量，我们可以交换新的想法。

Raf Simons: When you are two, I cannot say you never have to give in but sometimes you do have to give in... / 当两个人的时候，我不能说你不需要总是让步，但有的时候你不得不让步。

Susie Lau: Compromise? / 妥协？

Raf Simons: I think we compromise, but I think we do that only when we also really believe that it makes sense. We have a longer conversation about it, then if I believe that there is a better reason to do it than to not do it, then we do it and we do it with conviction. / 我认为我们是妥协，但我们只在我们真的认为是重要事情的时候才会这么做。我们之前聊过很多关于这个事情。我相信我们要做好一件事情一定有原因要比放弃去做有更重要的理由。然后我们去做并且要很坚定。

Miuccia Prada: People forget that when you are working, you are working on something... We are professional people, so we know what we are talking about so we say, ‘Which kind of fabric do you want to work with this season?’ And, ‘Do you like? Which kind of shape? Which kind of volume? Which concept?’ so we start working on direction. So afterwards it’s not so complicated. / 人们忘记了，当你工作的时候你是为了目标而工作……我们都是职业的人，所以我们知道我们自己在讨论什么，所以我们会说“这一季你想有哪种材质？”并且“有喜欢嘛？什么形状的？用量多少？什么概念？”所以我们就开始了工作的方向。事情并没有那么复杂。

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Raf Simons: Everything is very together, like daily together non-stop all the time. This can be written for me and I didn’t tell Miuccia – there is a kind of perception of a certain part of the audience, specifically the writing audience, really thinking in clichés, even if we get great reviews, thinking like, if there was a bomber in the collection that that automatically comes from me and if there is a full skirt, that automatically comes from Miuccia. All I want to say today is that I would be really happy if it is written in this piece, that this is not how it works, it’s not. It might be that Miuccia really wants a bomber that season... / 每件事情都非常一致，一直在一起工作不停歇。你可以这么写我而且我没有告诉Miuccia。对有一部分受众人群有一种感觉，特别是一群看文字的受众，他们的思维很固化，即使我们俩联合起来打造了很好的产品，他们也会理解为在某一系列的一些爆点来自于我，而且一些裙子的爆点来自于Miuccia。我想说得是今天，我非常开心。如果能把这段写出来，我认为很有意义。如果没有，有可能是Miuccia真的想要让本季成为一个爆点。

Miuccia Prada: And very often it’s the opposite of what they say... / 通常情况下，他们说得其实是相反的……

Raf Simons: It is so the opposite! On the last collection people would be really surprised about how the dynamic worked. / 的确是相关的！上一个系列，大家真的有对我们的共鸣感惊讶到。

Susie Lau: People just want to attribute something, like what is your role? What is your role? You’re the bomber person and you’re the skirt per- son... And it’s kind of an insult to what you both do because you’re not just the bomber guy and you’re not just the skirt person... / 人们总是想把事情归类，比如你们分别的扮演什么角色？你是打造爆款的人，你是裙装的负责人……这对于你们两位是一种冒犯，因为你们不止一个人打造了爆款，另一个人也不止是裙装的负责人。

Raf Simons: Not an insult, but just like it’s surprising to me, it’s surprising to me after the first round because then we did it on purpose, it wasn’t even my thing, I wasn’t coming in and saying, ‘Oh let’s do a hoodie with a Peter De Potter print.’ Miuccia was really interested in like, ‘Hey let’s literally bring something from your history DNA into the collection.’ / 不算是冒犯，但对我来说很吃惊。最初来说会让我很惊讶。因为它不是我个人的，但我又不能说，“让我们用比利时艺术家的图案来做个帽衫”。Miuccia真的很有意思，她会说“把你的历史DNA的一些原素融入到这一季产品中”。

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Miuccia Prada: Actually everything that is him, I want to do. I ask him to do it. And very often he asks to do something I used to do. So we are exchanging. / 实际上他做了所有我想做得事情。我让他去做得。他总是能做一些我想做的事情，所以我们彼此交流观点。

Susie Lau: It is an interesting dialogue. / 这次的对话很有趣。

Miuccia Prada: I don’t understand why people are so fixated on which part is his and which is mine. Because we work together so at the end it is one! / 我不明白为什么人们总想固定哪一些是他的还有哪一部分是我的。因为我们一起工作，最后融为一体！

Raf Simons: It all comes back to the same point, always. it’s not very much different than the man in a suit. People like to make all these definitions – archetypes, stereotypes even – and it’s not really bothering me, but I keep wondering, why is that? Because at the end of the day the world is clearly showing you that’s evolving in a very different way, so why do you keep doing that? / 最后都完美融合了，一直合二为一。这个和一个男士穿了一身套装是一个道理。人们喜欢对所有这些事情做出定义——原创、手稿等——这些真的让我很烦，但我又不得不想为什么会这样？因为最后世界将会进化成和你所想得完全不一样，为什么你们却一直这样想？

Susie Lau: But fashion has always relied on very simplistic language to give it labels. I mean that is one of the problems of the industry, that’s why it gets simplified and made to look quite stupid to most people. / 但时尚总是依赖非常简单的语言去打标签。我指得是时尚行业的一个问题是对大多数人来看简化会让我们看起来很蠢。

Miuccia Prada: The simplification is a big argument that I am obsessed with – it’s a big problem. I mention this in every interview. / 简化一直是我很想讨论的争议，这是一个大问题。我每一个采访都会提及。

Susie Lau: But that’s why YOU have to continue, to keep things not simple. / 但这就是你要继续的原因，让事情变得不简单。

Miuccia Prada: [Laughs] Brava! / （大笑）棒极了！

Susie Lau: ...to ensure that nuance is always there. I mean that is kind of one of the raison d’être of Prada, is it not? / 有的时侯会有细微差别。我指得是成为PRADA的某一系列，会不会有？

Raf Simons: For me too. / 对我来说是。

Susie Lau: If there was no nuance, I think there would be a real lack of purpose to what I do as well. Because I truly believe that if Prada didn’t exist, what would the landscape look like? I think a lot of it could be pretty much eliminated. If we go back to why do we do this? / 如果没有细微差别，我认为我们也不会去做这些采访。因为我坚信如果PRADA不存在，会有什么样的愿景呢？我认为很多东西都会消失。因为我们的很多工作都没有意义了。

Raf Simons: I think the same and that’s why I came here! / 我也这么认为，这就是为什么我加入了PRADA！

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Susie Lau: And you’re here to bolster, support, infiltrate – a myriad of things. / 而且你来这里是强化、支持品牌并深入事无巨细之中。

Miuccia Prada: I said recently, and he didn’t know, but I learned to look at things through his eye because he has a very contemporary eye. / 我说最近，他不知道，但我真得在用他的眼光去看事情。因为他的眼光非常现代化。

Raf Simons: Says the person that I find the most contemporary! 她说我是最具有现代化的人！

Miuccia Prada: I think that his vision is modern... / 我认为他很时髦…
Susie Lau: You’re actually going red, Raf! / 你脸都红了，Raf！

Raf Simons: Yeah, it’s such a compliment that it makes me emotional. / 是，这样的赞誉让我不好意思。

Susie Lau: Did that surprise you? The level of respect that Mrs Prada came to you with. Because you’re a super fan that came here and you had admired her so long... / 惊到你了？像Prada女士这样的人这么夸你。因为你是她的一个超级粉丝而且你欣赏她很久了…

Raf Simons: Maybe because I knew that before, because how could I not have felt that, because they had faith in me back with JIL SANDER, when I was seen by the fashion world as some sort of new wave punk men’s designer from Antwerp. And they offered me JIL SANDER womenswear. So at that point they saw something different from what other people saw. Not that I have a problem with how I get defined by the fashion world anyway. But this has a longer history than just two years ago when we started here. / 也许是因为我以前就知道了，因为我怎么可能没有这种感觉，因为他们坚信我会回到JIL SANDER,那时我被时尚界看成为来自于比利时安特卫普的新势力朋克男士设计师。并且他们也让我做JIL SANDER女装。他们也看到了其他人看不到的不同款式。无论如何，我没有觉得时尚界对我的定义有问题。但是这些与两年前我在这里开始工作相比真得太久了。

Miuccia Prada: But also, we share the same stylist. And very often I would say. ‘Ah I want to do this’ and Olivier would look at me with this face like ‘I’m sorry, Raf did it already...’ It used to happen at least twice a season. / 但是我们也共用一个造型师。通常情况下我会说。“啊，我想做这个”然后奥利维亚就会这样看着我“抱歉，Raf已经做完了……”这种情况至少一个季度会至少发生两次。

Susie Lau: So better you just collaborate together so you don’t have to have any issues. / 所以你们在一起合作，你就不会有任何问题。

Miuccia Prada: And sometimes I would really envy what he did! I mean I envy but in a good way, like ‘Oh my god, I would have loved doing that.’ / 有的时候我真得会嫉妒他！我的意思是从好的地方去嫉妒他，比如“我的天，我也想做那款”。

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Susie Lau: Competition is good. / 良性竞争。

Raf Simons: No other designer would say this. Miuccia is very honest. That’s something that I find very admirable. / 其它设计师不会这么说得。Miuccia非常诚实。这点非常让人欣赏。

Miuccia Prada: I want to be intellectually honest and I like intellectually honest people. / 我想非常诚实，我喜欢诚实的人。

Raf Simons: I remember after my last CALVIN KLEIN collection, you said to me ‘Those dresses, those dresses!’ I mean most people didn’t even like it... / 我记得在我最后的CALVIN KLEIN系列，你对我说“这些裙子，这些裙子！”我想说很多人根本不喜欢……

Miuccia Prada: The veils, the patchworks... there were many things. / 面纱、拼接…很多好看的东西。

Susie Lau: So there’s this very true respect. / 可以看出来是真的欣赏。

Raf Simons: There was this natural pre-existing connection. I cannot explain it in words because the company doesn’t have that kind of same systematic approach in that sense. When you’re in it for as long as I’ve been in it, you know how all these things work. Normally, there’s a beginning where you go let’s talk, we’re looking for a new creative director. It wasn’t like that, Mr Bertelli kind of vaguely stayed in touch, always. / 这里有自然的缘份。我无法用言语来解释，因为普拉达有一种魅力。只要你身入其中，你就知道自己要怎么做这些工作。通常，初始你正在寻找一位创意总监。不是所有品牌都会这样像Bertelli先生还可以保持联系。

Susie Lau: There was an ongoing conversation? / 你们之间有过对话嘛？

Raf Simons: There were many years prior to the moment I exited CALVIN KLEIN, when Mr Bertelli asked me to come to Milan. It wasn’t even me becoming creative director, it was just like, ‘Let’s talk again.’ And out of that we had this conversation that got to a point of doing it this way. And I think that’s very interesting because it’s very atypical, you might think it’s typical but it’s not typical, ever. / 很多年前，我离开CALVIN KLEIN的时候，Bertelli先生让我来米兰。那时我还没有成为创意总监，他说“我们再聊聊”。我认为非常有意思，因为你们可能认为这样的谈话很有代表性，但实际上我们很自然地在聊。

Susie Lau: Unprecedented. / 史无前例。

编者按

We’re coming towards the end and outside it has gone completely dark. And the two ‘co-conspirators’ speak freely about being judged on terms that are often not fair or just. We come to my favorite thing to ask designers about, which is what they consider to be their personal parameters of success. Naively, I often think if everyone adjusted their ideas of what success is – one that doesn’t just need to be an upward straight graph line of growth – then it would solve a lot of problems that are considered the ills of the industry. When young designers try to run before they can walk. When investors call for ‘More output!’ When brands are floatable on a stock exchange. Mrs Prada is skeptical about being consistently judged by her company’s profit margins. Raf talks candidly (some parts were distinctly off-record) about the cut-throat brutality of the hire-and-fire mentality today. Together their collective raised eyebrows at the industry around them, again puts them on a united front against the tidal expectation of growth and monetary success. In Miuccia’s words, she wants to ‘win in her own way.’ Don’t we all?

采访接近尾声，室外一片漆黑。这两位“共谋者”很自然地判断哪些术语是公平的哪些不是。当我们谈到我最喜欢的话题，我问设计师他们认为个人成功的指数是什么。我经常天真地认为每个人都有他们自己对成功的想法——那可能不需要再用一段篇幅去阐述，并且我认为这可能会解决一些行业的痛点和问题。很多年轻的设计师没学会走就想跑。当投资人说“多产出一些！”当品牌市值在交易所浮现。Prada女士一直怀疑她公司的利润情况。Raf讲得很实在（有一些从未公开）关于当今雇佣关系的残酷性。他们的合体让行业眼前一亮，而且完全对抗了新时代的期许也实现了收益和成功增长的预期。用Miuccia的话讲，她想用她自己的方式赢得世界。我们不都想这样嘛？

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访谈实录 / Interview Record

Raf Simons: After CALVIN KLEIN when I returned to Antwerp, weirdly, I think I’d mentioned it to someone, that the only brand I could potentially have any interest in is Prada in the future. But I’d never really thought about it in that way. It was more this question of which brand would have the content, the intelligence, the approach and the culture that I think would be the only one, I would want to relate to in this fashion world because it is a monster... / 结束CK的合作我回到了安特卫普，很奇怪。我对一些人讲，未来我最有兴趣合作的品牌就是PRADA。但我从未想过我们可以合作。如果说只能选择一个品牌，它要兼容有内容、有智慧、有独特的方式还有文化背景，这在时尚界可能是一个巨型怪兽。

Miuccia Prada: Who’s a monster? / 谁是巨型怪曾

Susie Lau: The fashion world. / 时尚界

Miuccia Prada: [Laughs]. / （大笑）

Raf Simons: I think it’s a monster now... / 我认为它现在是一个怪兽。

Susie Lau: Is Prada itself, do you think of it as a bit of a beast as well because it IS a big entity and it’s bigger than you, Miuccia. Does that ever overwhelm either of you or the process? / Miuccia，PRADA本身在你认为会是一个怪兽嘛？因为它是一个很大的实业而且非常的庞大。它是否曾经颠覆过你或者在发展中颠覆过你的认知？

Miuccia Prada: It worries me because there’s a lot of jobs at stake. I always say, today we have to work three times more, or ten times more because the quantity of the things you have to do. I am, by definiton, interested in the changes and realities of the fashion world, because it is connected to reality and the more it gets difficult to understand the more I am challenged. / 它让我焦虑，因为我们负担了很多就业岗位。我总说，今天我们需要工作三倍或者十倍。我本身对时尚界的改变和现实很感兴趣，因为越接近现实，我们的挑战就越难理解。

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Raf Simons: I think the big change is that now you could be a good designer today and not get anywhere, because there are so many other aspects that came in that take a lot of importance because of how it has evolved. And there is another thing which is a big problem for me – you could be a shitty designer right now and it works really well. / 我认为大的改变是现在你可以是一个好的设计师并且可以得到很多，因为在很多层面上这些变革有着重大意义。并且对我来说有一个很大的问题——你可能是一个很烂的设计师但你也可以工作得很好。

Susie Lau: Yes, it’s not meritocracy. / 是的，不是精英阶层。

Raf Simons: It just depends how you define, and that’s why I like to work with Miuccia – how do you define what works and what doesn’t work? I know how I decided it to be for me and my Antwerp brand, that’s why it’s a small table with a small team. With Prada it can’t be like that because it’s already this huge thing, you have to take into account, but at the end of the day when it’s about clothes I can tell you, she takes an enormous risk with what she does, challenging the scale of it. It’s not that you don’t know what to do to just make the business grow more, you still like to grow, you still like to question, you still like to challenge. / 这取决于你怎么定义，这也是为什么我喜欢跟Miuccia工作——你怎么定义什么能工作得通什么不能？我知道怎么样对我的安特卫普品牌和我自己决策，因为团队和范围很小。就PRADA而言，不能这样，因为他已经是一个巨头了，你不得不考虑方方面面，但最后关于服装我可以告诉你，她为此承担了巨大的风险和规模性的挑战。这不是你们想让生意成长就成长，不是我们想问问题就会有答案，也不是我们想挑战就可以实现的目标。

Miuccia Prada: In theory, I would like to win my own way. / 理论想，我想用我自己的方式赢得世界。

Susie Lau: Yeah, to have growth your way. / 对，用自己自己的方式成长。

Miuccia Prada: To win my own way, it’s nearly impossible. The challenge for Prada is to keep growing but retaining some intelligence and something meaningful, it’s a very continuous effort, just trying to be out there in a clever way and keep going. / 用我自己的方式几乎没有可能。普拉达的挑战是保持持续增长还要保持一定的深层次。我们需要持续努力，需要找到一个聪明的方式并持之以恒。

Susie Lau: Let’s say how fashion operates today, is that growth supposed to be relentless, you want more so you’ve made one billion, then you want ten billion, then you want twenty billion. It keeps going and going and going... / 今天我们说操盘时尚品牌，增长是无止境的目标。你想要10亿，然后就想要100亿然后你想到200亿。就这样持续下去……

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Raf Simons: But there’s something else, looking at it the way you poses the question – you pose the question ‘limitless’ – it’s a different thing. I mean we all know it’s an economical law to grow, whether you grow a little bit or a lot, but is it limitless? / 但也有其它的方式，你看你提出的问题——你提出的问题是“无限”——这是一个不同的问题。我的意思是我们都知道这是经济定律上的增长，不论你是增长一点还是很多。但是它是无限的吗？

Susie Lau: Can you just keep on growing and growing and growing? / 你能一直保持持续增长嘛？

Raf Simons: You see it everywhere. Theoretically you can grow and grow and keep growing, but it de- pends on what you’re willing to give in or what you’re willing to do. / 你到处看看，理论上你可以增长并且持续增长，但是这取决于你想不想在你想做得事情上有所退让。

Susie Lau: But what about your personal parameters of success? / 那么您个人对成功的衡量标准是什么？

Miuccia Prada: To be honest I’m not interested in success at all, I’m interested in doing my job well. Success doesn’t mean anything to me. Thank god I am successful (!), but honestly, I am interested in being good at what I do and in my life, so in that sense I want to be successful because I want to be good at my job. I want to succeed at my job. / 担白讲我对成功完全没有兴趣，我只对我的工作感兴趣。成功对我来说什么都不是。感谢上帝我是成功的，坦白讲，我对我擅长的工作有兴趣，所以从那个层面上来讲我想成功。因为我想要更擅长我的工作。我现让我们工作成功。

Susie Lau: Well, you have! / 您已经成功啦！

Raf Simons: You’re only as good as the moment itself, and then it has to be better afterwards. It’s a drive. I’m very much like if I don’t have everything perfect then I could not continue, I would have to stop. So I’m also a little bit, even if I can be annoyed or upset from it, a bit in need of reaction and resistance and it’s not that I find it easy, I don’t take it easily, but I know it’s an important thing. / 你现在的成功只代表现在，你将来需要更好。这是一种驱动力。我属于那种如果现在我想做得事情还不够完美，我是不会继续的，我会停下来。哪怕是一丁点，即使是一点点小的反应或者让我感觉到烦恼或者不开心的因素，如果我发现了，我可能就会放不下，我知道这个很重要。

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Susie Lau: Does that define your notion of success, what other people say? / 这是你对成功的定义嘛？别人怎么说？

Raf Simons: Clients who buy the collection and then say something about it. I have to think about it, and I have to do better. I have to go again. / 顾客买得衣服和他们的评价是我想关注的，因为我想做得更好。我也必须去了解。

Susie Lau: It drives you? It stimulates you. / 这是你的驱动力？刺激你？

Raf Simons: Oh yeah, I also very often think it makes sense. / 对，我经常这么认为。

Raf Simons: You know, they make gods out of designers and then afterwards they have to find a way to push them down again. You see everybody going through it. / 你知道，顾客就是上帝。他们先把你推出圈，然后他们再找一种方式将设计师推下台。每个设计师都经历过。

Susie Lau: It’s called ‘tall poppy syndrome’ where if you grow too tall then people are going to pull you down again... / 这叫做“高罂粟综合征”（仇富症）如果你成就太高了，大众就想把你推翻……

Miuccia Prada: The thing that shocks me the most in present time, is how everyone is obsessed only with money. Never before! It’s how much you sell and at what price, not if you’re good or not... / 现在最让我震惊的事情是为什么每个人只对金钱痴迷。以前绝不是这样！这是你卖了多少，以什么价格，不是你好与不好……

Susie Lau: Yeah, it’s the thing I’m not very good at analysing. I mean, that’s why things like NFTs are really confusing to me because it’s this arbitrary value that’s put on this weird thing that’s not tangible, but it’s got this strange high value attached to it. / 对，这个我不是非常擅长去分析。我的意思是像NFT这类东西真的困扰着我，因为这些东西让我感觉很奇怪也不是有形的。因为正是这种任意的价值被放在了这个奇怪的东西上，他没有形的，但它有这种奇怪的高价值。

Miuccia Prada: You are interested? / 你有兴趣嘛？

Susie Lau: I’m sceptic slash curious... / 我是怀疑多于好奇…

Miuccia Prada: Me too, I’m sceptic slash curious! / 我也是，我也是怀疑多于好奇！

Susie Lau: I want to understand it, but I do think it is speculative. / 我想了解这方面但是我确信它是投机的。

Miuccia Prada: Six months, or one year, we’ve been reading about NFTs. I want to understand, because people are so interested in that and it’s happening everywhere, that there must be something there. My latest thought is that people want to also live in a fantasy land. Maybe they’re frustrated with reality and they want to pretend there is another life. But it is also a complex conversation. / 6个月还是1年前我们读过NFT。我想了解，因为大家对它如此有兴趣然后到处都在讨论，那一定有一定原因。我最近的想法是人们可能想生活在梦幻岛。也许他们对现实心灰意冷想要伪装在另一个世界里。但这也是一个复杂的对话。

Susie Lau: Because reality is so appalling? / 因为现实很残酷？

Miuccia Prada: For that, or it’s just another possibility. It’s a game. / 有可能或者它就是一个可能，一个游戏。

Raf Simons: It’s another kind of reality. / 也是另一种现实。

编者按

And as we edged onto the topic of the metaverse (that’s for another time, another conversation,) Miuccia had to take a phone call but she still gets the last word. Mrs Prada’s got a football match to go to... A.C. Milan, duh. She seems surprised I’m just a fair-weather football fan [Arsenal]. / 当我们步入元宇宙的话题（这是另一个时间，另外一个话题）Miuccia接了一个电话然后她要结束今天的采访了。Prada女士得去看一场A.C.米兰的足球赛。她很惊讶我竟然也是一个球迷（阿森纳）。

Raf, meanwhile, is off to Paris. Fashion month carried on amidst rising tensions. In that moment though, the weekend was upon us. Friday. We weren’t to know how it would escalate and how millions would begin to be displaced, as though history was faithfully repeating itself. No slide action on this day, but at least we did get to the bubbly. Because when those signature glasses of Prosecco are served in a Prada context, that means another collection is aced, done and dusted. Onto the next one. And then the next after that, we hope... But, let us remember, this body of work is never finished.

Raf此刻已经出发去了巴黎。时尚行业的重要月份却在紧张的局势中进行着。周末来临，周五，我们不知道将来的局势，因为历史总会重演。今天股票没有跌，但我们至少有些涨浮的泡沫。当我们举起PRADA表示庆祝的普罗赛克标示性酒杯，这意为着另一个系列产品已经稳操胜券且完成了。我们希望PRADA品牌可以持续成功。最后，请与我们共同记住这一天，让这种工作状态永远待续。

采访与撰稿 | Susie Lau

翻译 | 刘安东、鲁向成

审校 | 崔辅兼

责任编辑 | 谢佳晋

交互 | Adrian Cui

图源 | 品牌