武瑶：Never Say Never—Interview with Wang Baoqiang
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To Cite This Article:
Yao Wu and Yirui Cheng. "Never Say Never: Reproduction of Intergenerational Will and Return of Ideal—Interview with Wang Baoqiang" Journal of Chinese Film Studies, vol. 3, no. 3, 2023, pp. 577-587. https://doi.org/10.1515/jcfs-2023-0061
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About the AuthorsYao Wu
Yao Wu is an associate professor of School of Theatre, Film and Television, of Communication University of China, a member of China Radio and Television Association TV-Series Scriptwriters Committee and a screenwriter. She has planned and scripted many stage and film works, including Just Try Me, Dirty King Adventure, Under the Skin.
武瑶：中国传媒大学戏剧影视学院副教授、知名编剧，中广协电视剧编剧工作委员会成员，策划、编剧多部舞台及影视作品，代表作品有《关于爱情和那些魔鬼》《犯罪图鉴》《三分野》等。
Yirui Cheng is a M.A. student at School of Theater, Film and Television, Communication University of China and a screenwriter.
程逸睿：中国传媒大学戏剧影视学院2022级硕士生，青年编剧
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Abstract and Keywords摘要：王宝强作为《八角笼中》的导演，知名演员、电影导演，代表作有《盲井》《天下无贼》《唐人街探案》系列等。电影《八角笼中》是王宝强作为导演的第二部重要作品，历时六年磨砺而成，是一部讲述一群来自大山的孩子在中年退役运动员向腾辉的带领下通过格斗运动走出大山，改变命运，孩子与大人互相救赎的现实题材电影。此次访谈涉及演员表演、导演的视听表达和价值追求等多个层面，探讨了影片表现出的跨代际意志再现与主角人到中年的理想折返，深度展现作为成熟演员的王宝强在探索导演艺术之路的多维思考与艺术感悟。
关键词：《八角笼中》；现实主义；视听隐喻；表演指导
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A Glimpse of the ArticleWu Yao (hereinafter referred to as “Wu”): There are a lot of non-professional actors in the movie Never Say Never, delivering performances with “authentic” power. How did you choose the performers and direct their performances? How do you view the “original” power and beauty of these performers?
武瑶（以下简称“武”）：《八角笼中》这部电影中有许多非专业演员，有很多具有“原生”力量的表演，您是如何进行演员选材与表演指导的？您又是如何看待这些演员身上的“原生”力量与美感的呢？
Wang Baoqiang (hereinafter referred to as “Wang”): In my opinion, when selecting actors with these characteristics, the first thing to consider is their suitability for the film genre. The tone of the movie Never Say Never makes me think that we should find some real-life, untrained actors. Professional actors are good, but some “authentic” things the movie needs may cost them a lot of effort to present only a partially satisfactory result maybe, while these untrained children’s instincts can easily meet the requirements of the movie. I thought this kind of “natural” performance should play a big part in Never Say Never. I always say that if we can’t find the right young actors, the movie won’t be able to start. The performance of these young actors is a big part of this film. As a director, I should unleash the instincts of these children, and this needs a lot of guidance, time and dedication.
王宝强（以下简称“王”）：我觉得在挑选这种类型演员的时候，首先需要考虑的是和电影类型及题材的适配性。《八角笼中》这个电影本身的调性让我觉得应该要找一些原生态的演员，并不是说职业化的演员不好，而是这个电影所需要的一些“本真”的东西是一些职业演员可能需要花费很多的努力才做到差强人意，而这些原生态的孩子本能流露的东西却能比较轻松地达到电影要求。我认为这种“原生”的表演在《八角笼中》应当占有相当大的比重，我常说，如果找不到合适的小演员，这个电影是没有办法开机的，可见这些小演员的表演对于《八角笼中》是很重要的。作为导演，我需要让这些孩子本能里、骨子里带的一些东西流露出来，这是需要慢慢引导的，需要时间以及相当用心。
Cheng Yirui (hereinafter referred to as “Cheng”): How do you interpret the title Never Say Never?
程逸睿（以下简称“程”）：《八角笼中》的“笼”是怎样的一个艺术意象？
Wang: As we have just discussed, the middle-aged Xiang Tenghui is caught in the midst of his own predicament, and the children in the mountains are also in a predicament, and they are all thinking about where to go, and looking for their own way out; they never say never to their own lives and keep going. This movie is not only about boxing, but also about the game of life. And this is a realistic movie, which also shows that many people in the real world have their own ring; there is this predicament while they keep fighting, and never say never to their own lives.
王：像我们刚才谈到的那样，中年的向腾辉他在自己的困境中，在大山的孩子也是在困境中，他们都在思考何去何从，都在寻找自己的出路，我觉得这些本质上都是在“八角笼中”，这个电影谈到的不仅仅是格斗，其实也讲的是人生中的博弈，那么这是一部现实题材的电影，可能也在展现现实社会中的很多人都有自己的擂台，都有自己人生的“八角笼”。
Cheng: At the end of Never Say Never, Xiang Tenghui encounters a face-changing show in a Sichuan Opera, which impresses the audience: what is the intention of this scene? Has the use of opera elements always been in your plan?
程：在《八角笼中》的结尾处向腾辉遇见了一场川剧的“变脸”，令观众印象深刻，这个桥段的用意何在？戏曲元素的运用一直在您的创作规划中吗？
Wang: This is actually one of my favorite scenes. First of all, I think that a face-changing show at such a time is beyond the audience’s expectation. This scene here mainly serves a metaphorical purpose. At the time, Xiang Tenghui is stuck in a traffic jam as well as in the maelstrom of life. He can’t move an inch in view of the present situation and also his weary heart. At such a time, a face-changing show will give him some enlightenment, get him out of the present predicament, and enable him to see the light at the end of the tunnel. In fact, adults often live with a mask, various masks. Under the pressure of life, we’re just like the Monkey King who has the power of seventy-two metamorphoses. The mask, I say here, has no derogatory meaning. In today’s life we cannot achieve anything without a mask, and we have to wear different masks in different situations. So the face-changing show here also means that he is going to face the next game with a different mask, a different mentality.
王：这其实是我最喜欢的一场戏。首先我觉得，在这样的时候突然出现一段变脸，应该是很多观众预料不到的。放在这里，主要是起到一些隐喻性的作用。那个时候向腾辉是堵车到了寸步难行的时候，他的人生也是在这个时候寸步难行了。他一步都迈不动了，一方面是现实的状况让他没有办法继续前行，另一方面是心态上，他会觉得非常疲倦。在这样的时候出现了一场变脸，就格外地会给他一些警醒的作用，让他从当下的困厄中解脱出来，有点“柳暗花明又一村”的意思。其实成年人很多时候都带着面具在生活的，而且是各种各样的面具，生活迫使每个人活成七十二变的孙悟空，这是无可奈何的事情。我这里说的面具没有贬义，在现在的生活中没有面具是办不成事的，在不同的境况下就要带不同的面具。因此，这里的变脸也是说下一场他即将换一张面具去面对了，意味着换一种心态。
Cheng: After such a fantastic show, there comes the long black-and-white image of Su Mu, I think there must be a deeper meaning here as well?
程：在这么一段绚丽的戏曲影像后，紧跟着就是结尾苏木比赛一段长长的黑白影像了，我想在这里也应该有比较深的寓意？
Wang: Yes. The colors of black and white are used as a metaphor for the lives of these children, who were born, from the very beginning, with their lives in black and white. Black and white is too monotonous to be noticed if it's not in the midst of color. The same is true of the children. No one pays attention to them, or cares about them, except Xiang Tenghui. But after they win the match, the black and white turns back to color, which means that these kids need to win by their own punch. This also leaves us with something to think about, that is, the role of parents and Xiang Tenghui concerning the children’s success. The parents give the kids life but cannot help them succeed; Xiang Tenghui gives them opportunities but also has no way to help them succeed, and the only thing they can rely on is still themselves. So it’s completely understandable why Su Mu presses his opponent to fight at the end. It comes from a deep fear. The burden of life is so overwhelming, but he has to deal with it all by himself. Just like when his opponent presses him to fight, no one can help him; he can only rely on himself to struggle from the edge of life and death, to open the lock of his heart, to release his potential energy.
王：是的，在这里有比较深的寓意。黑白的颜色是用来隐喻这些孩子的人生，他们从一开始生下来，人生就是黑白的。黑白是贫乏的，如果不是在彩色之中，是很容易被忽视的，就好像他们的人生，除了向腾辉，没有人去关注他们，也没有人会去在乎他们。但在比赛胜利后，色彩又变成了彩色，来表达出这些孩子们是需要靠自己一拳一拳来赢得的美丽彩虹。在这里也有一些思考，关于父母和孩子们成功的关系以及向腾辉和孩子们成功的关系。父母给予孩子们生命，但没有办法帮助他们成功，向腾辉给予他们机会，但也没有办法帮助他们成功，孩子们能够依靠的，还是只有八角笼中的自己。所以苏木在最后为什么压着对手来打也是完全可以理解的，这来源于一种很深的恐惧，社会上的很多给了他压力，让他喘不过气来，但能解决问题的只有他自己。对手把他压住打的时候，谁都帮不了他，他只能靠自己从生死边缘挣扎过来，把自己心门的锁打开，把自己潜在的能量释放出来。
Wu: Your performance has strong personal aesthetic characteristics, so as a director, do you also want to establish a perception of a “Wang Baoqiang-style” movie aesthetic among the audience?
武：您的表演具有强烈的个人美学特色，那么作为导演，您也希望观众能建立起“王宝强式”电影美学风格这样一种认知吗？
Wang: Actually, I have been thinking about this again and again. In my opinion, whether I’m a director or an actor, it’s all the same: the most important thing is what I bring to the audience. I don’t really think about what kind of film I’m going to make afterward, whether I’m going to continue this style or go on to something else: it depends. As an actor, I often wonder, if I don’t play a comedy role anymore, what type of film will I play, what is worth watching for the audience? The same is true as a director. Therefore, no matter what genre or style, whether it is the so-called “Wang Baoqiang-style” or not, it doesn’t matter to me. The important thing is that the work I deliver to the audience is watchable, and meaningful. This is the special sincerity I want to show to the audience.
王：其实在你问到这个问题之前，我也是在反复思考这个问题。我想无论是我做导演和做演员，其实都是一样的，最重要的是要带给观众什么。我并没有考虑过之后是要拍什么，是要继续延续这个风格还是去拍其他的，这都有很大的变数。我常常琢磨，如果王宝强抛开喜剧不演喜剧了，我需要演什么给观众看，什么是值得观众看的，当导演也是一样的。所以，无论是什么类型也好，什么风格也好，有没有所谓“王宝强美学风格”也好，对我来说都没有那么重要，重要的是作品给到观众是一个有可看性的、有表达性的作品，这是我想要对观众展现的特别大的诚意。
Wu: As an excellent and experienced actor, how do you think being both the director and actor has inspired and helped you with directing? What role does acting play in your directing?
武：作为优秀且成熟的演员，您觉得既导又演的创作方式给了您的导演创作怎样的启发和帮助呢？表演在您的导演创作中扮演了怎样的角色？
Wang: As for this film, I am both the director Wang Baoqiang and the actor Wang Baoqiang. To be honest, in the acting part, I’m not so worried given the experience I have, but I will also be strict with myself, because the audience will compare the character portrayed this time with the character I portrayed before. Then in the directing part, I’m actually more worried because the audience will compare this film with other people’s as well as with my previous movies. Besides, although I’m a new director, the audience rarely realizes this, as some of my achievements in my previous performances will make the audience think that I’m a very mature film and television practitioner, and they will hold me to a higher standard: even so, I’m still very grateful for this, as it enables me to keep challenging myself. As for the role of acting, I’d like to talk about the difference between being an actor and being a director. Compared to acting, directing is more proactive. The director has a whole team, and he is the one who holds the steering wheel with every character under control. In addition, the director needs to see the big picture, and has a good eye for people to make a good team. As an actor, I have developed some artistic and aesthetic intuition, but I can’t always think that comprehensively. However, as a director, and together with my whole team, I need to take all aspects of a film into consideration to make it complete. As for the future, and whether to be an actor or a director, I will be more cautious, in view of the lesson learnt in Buddies in India (Danao tianzhu, 2017). I will not jump to do anything until I am very sure of it. This comes from a kind of artistic prudence, but it’s also something I’ve learnt these past years as a director, a position I’m in awe of. As an experienced actor, if there's any suitable role after this film, I'd like to try for it. As a new director, I would hope to present a story that particularly touches my heart. This time, I have spent six years on the film, and I expect that to polish another worthy story will again require a long period of time.
王：在这个片子里，我既是导演王宝强，也是演员王宝强。说实话，在表演的部分，我并没有那么深刻的担心，因为是比较有经验的，但这次塑造的角色也是会被观众拿来和之前塑造过的角色来对比，所以在表演部分我也不会放低对自己的要求。那么在导演部分，其实是我比较担心的，因为观众会拿你的整个片子去和别人比较，也会和我之前自己的片子比较。而且虽然我是一个新人导演，但是观众很少会意识到这一点，之前表演道路上取得的一些成绩会让观众觉得我是一个非常成熟的影视从业者，会拿更高的标准来要求我，我其实是很感谢这一点的，时时刻刻不敢忘记观众们无形之中对我的鞭策，让我比较有勇气去挑战自己。我想谈谈做演员和做导演的区别，或许就更能明白表演对于导演上起的作用。比起表演来说，导演是更具有主动性的，导演有一整个团队，每一个角色和人物都需要把控，他是那个掌握方向盘的人。他是需要非常全面的，而且在搭建整个团队的过程中，他是需要有用人选择的。作为演员，我培养起了一些艺术上的直觉和审美上的方法，但我不一定想得那么全面，但是作为导演，我带着整个团队，可以一起把整个电影世界构筑得更加完整。至于未来的艺术之路，是做演员还是做导演，我是会更加谨慎的，因为有《大闹天竺》的前车之鉴，我会让自己有特别大的把握才能来做这个事，这是出于一种艺术上的审慎，也是我在学习导演艺术这条道路上我所有的心得体会，因为我对做导演这个事是充满敬畏的。作为成熟演员，之后有好的角色我就会去尝试，作为新导演，我希望遇到一个特别触动我内心的故事，我才会勇敢尝试，因为这次我花了六年的时间，我希望能遇到一个值得我花下一段长时间好好去打磨的故事。
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Journal of Chinese Film Studies
《中国电影研究》
主编：王海洲、金海娜
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Never Say Never: Reproduction of Intergenerational Will and Return of Ideal——Interview with Wang Baoqiang