对话思想者 | 中国在国际舞台有着不可或缺的建设性作用

Editor's note: Former German Defense Minister Rudolf Scharping sits down with CGTN anchor Wang Guan. He says China is a constructive and indispensable power in the world, and responsible political and business leaders should understand the full range of a well-developed relationship between China and Germany or China and the European Union instead of focusing only on one issue, which is in conflict. Opinions expressed in this video are, and not necessarily those of CGTN.

到访中国超过250次，足迹遍布中国的大江南北，德国前国防部长鲁道夫·沙尔平从上世纪八十年代起便与中国结下情缘，见证了中国数十年的发展。他在接受主持人王冠的专访时赞叹中国取得的举世瞩目的发展成就。对于中欧关系，他表示中国在应对全球性问题和挑战过程中发挥着建设性作用，西方政治和商业领袖应当理解中欧关系的全面性，而不应过分纠结于某个存在矛盾冲突的领域。

Wang Guan: You've been to China many times. You've dealt with China both as a government official, and later on, as a business person. Tell us about how do you look at China's rise? Do you see China as this “hostile and aggressive power” as some narratives put it? Or as a peaceful and a responsible country?

王冠：您曾多次来到中国，一开始是作为一名政府官员来华访问，后来又作为一名企业家与中国打交道。您如何看待中国的崛起？您是否认为中国是一个“充满敌意和侵略性的大国”？就像一些反华论调说的那样。还是说您认为中国是一个热爱和平的负责任的大国？

Rudolf Scharping: I observed the development of China since the 1980s. And I always understood that China is constructive in global topics and global challenges. And China made a remarkable rejuvenation in the last 40 years, especially since the opening-up and modernization led by Deng Xiaoping. So basically, I would say China is a constructive power on the globe. And by the way, it's an indispensable power on the globe, because all the global challenges we are facing as mankind can only be solved by cooperation, and that includes China.

鲁道夫·沙尔平：从上世纪80年代开始我就一直在观察中国的发展。我一直都认为，中国在处理全球议题和挑战方面发挥着建设性作用。在过去的40年里，中国取得了举世瞩目的伟大复兴，特别是邓小平开启改革开放和现代化进程以来。总的来说，我认为中国在世界上发挥着建设性作用。另外，中国还是一个不可或缺的大国。因为人类面临的所有全球性挑战都需要通过合作才能解决，包括与中国的合作。

Wang Guan: All right, China is kicking off its 14th Five-Year Plan starting from the year 2021, that is this year. How do you look at it? And what opportunities do you think it will present for Germany and Europe?

王冠：2021年，也就是今年，是中国“十四五”规划的开局之年。您如何看待这项规划？您认为这将为德国和欧洲带来怎样的机会？

Rudolf Scharping: This 14th Five-Year Plan is a clear signal that China now is something like a society and a country with some medium economic well-being. And it describes and outlines very clearly the Chinese ambition to become a more wealthy, a more healthy, more greener economy and society. What I see is that is in the best benefit and in the best interest of the Chinese people.

鲁道夫·沙尔平:“十四五”规划发出了一个明确的信号，即中国社会在向中等富裕水平迈进。这项规划清楚地表明了中国的雄心壮志，力求在经济 医疗 环保和社会发展等领域更上一层楼。我认为这符合中国人民的最大和最佳利益。

Wang Guan: I’m going to shift gear a little bit and talk about China-Germany relations today. It is certainly a relationship that is full of challenges, but also opportunities. What are the biggest changes in your opinion that have taken place in China-Germany cooperation in the past few years?

王冠：接下来我们换个话题，来谈谈中德关系。对于两国而言，挑战和机遇并存。在您看来，过去几年中，中德合作发生的最大变化是什么？

Rudolf Scharping: Let me start with another point. German chancellors — Helmut Kohl, Helmut Schmidt, Gerhard Schröder, Angela Merkel — they understood very well how to handle China, how to handle the political, economical and other issues. And they understood. And that is my advice to understand, also in the future, the whole range, the full range of our relationship. It's not only trade. Trade is important, yes. But it is investment. It is technological cooperation. It is cooperation among universities. It is partnership among cities and so on. 

鲁道夫·沙尔平: 我先从另一个角度来谈谈中德关系。德国的几任总理，比如赫尔穆特·科尔、赫尔穆特·施密特、格哈德·施罗德、安格拉·默克尔都很懂得如何与中国打交道，如何处理政治经济等领域的问题。他们也理解，我希望未来人们也能理解中德关系的广泛程度。两国关系不仅仅停留在贸易层面。诚然，贸易是重要一环。但两国关系还涉及投资、技术合作、大学合作、城市合作等等。

What I want to say is, if you focus only on one issue, which is in conflict, then you probably lose the view on the full range of a very well-developed relationship between China and Germany or China and the European Union. We have to take into account, as responsible political and business leaders, the full range of relationships, not only one point, one single issue, one single topic, which narrows the view on what we have reached, and that is the best relationship in history we ever had. 

我想说的是，如果你只关注存在矛盾冲突的某个领域，你可能无法看清楚中德关系的深度与广度，也无法看清中欧关系的深度与广度。作为负责任的政治和商界领袖，我们必须考虑到双边关系的全面性，不应该纠结于某个问题点或某个话题。因为这会使我们一叶障目不见泰山，无法看清中德两国现在拥有的有史以来最好的关系。

Wang Guan: But are you concerned that somehow the political side of their relationship may somehow drag down the other aspects of the relationship that you've just mentioned, economic, trade, investment, because it looks to many to be the case right now.

王冠：但您是否担心中德政治层面的关系会拖累您刚才提到的其他领域的关系？比如经济、贸易、投资。因为在许多人看来现在的情况就是这样。

Rudolf Scharping: Yes, sure, there is a risk. And that is why I hope that responsible forces discuss the full range of our relationship. Look on the human rights issue. That's also something like the full range of human rights. The human rights are also talking about freedom of fear, freedom of starving, right of education and so on. If you're looking on the whole picture, then it is easier to handle those topics, those issues, which are under very different views. And we have to discuss this very frankly and very polite and respectful. 

鲁道夫·沙尔平：没错，的确存在风险。这就是为何我希望负责任的各方能够着眼于双边关系的广泛性。以人权问题为例，人权的定义也十分广泛，包括免于恐惧的自由、免于饥饿的自由、受教育的权利等等。如果你着眼于全局，那么处理这些议题和问题就会更容易。目前各方持有迥然不同的观点，我们在谈论这些问题的时候需要开诚布公、以礼相待。

But we also have to decide who is talking about what. We all know there is a cultural difference between China and Europe or Germany, which has to do with philosophy, which has to do with cultural development, with the European enlightenment and so on. There are very, very many aspects of this. But the difference is, and the solution or my conclusion is, don't forget these differences, respect them and make them a starting point for fruitful exchange.

但我们也必须清楚彼此讲话的真意。众所周知，中欧和中德之间存在文化差异。这与各国的哲学思想有关，与文化发展有关，也与欧洲的启蒙运动有关。这种文化差异具有很多的维度。虽然存在差异，但我认为应对之道在于牢记并尊重这些差异，并以此为起点开展富有成效的交流。

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