对话思想者 | 中国没有盲从西方主导的现代化 儒家思想贯穿其发展道路

王冠：

Professor Oualalou, welcome to our program. In a book you wrote a few years ago – China and us: A Response to the Second Passage, you point out that China’s reform and opening-up is not the single reason which led to its rapid growth over the past few decades. You pointed out that it was in fact the Chinese culture that played a very important role in taking China to where it is today. Can you elaborate?

瓦拉卢教授，欢迎来到我们的节目 。您在几年前写的一本书《中国与我们》中指出，改革开放并非中国在过去几十年得以快速发展的唯一原因。您谈到，事实上中国的文化对其发展起到了非常重要的作用。您可以展开讲讲吗？

法塔拉·瓦拉卢：

感谢你们的邀请。正如你所言，我在2017年写了一本书 ——《中国与我们》。这里的“我们”包括摩洛哥人、非洲人、阿拉伯人、马格里布人。这本书是我对中国五千年历史文明的综合思考。我研究了1979年后中国所经历的重大经济活动，尤其是在邓小平的领导下开启的改革开放。我认为，在1979改革开放以来的40多年里，中国既对内开放也对外开放，取得了很大的成就。中国在这个过程中经历了一些困难，但也成功从一个发展中国家成长为今天这个崛起大国，世界第二大经济体。

Thank you for the invitation. Like you said earlier, I wrote a book in 2017 - China and us, where “us” includes Moroccans, Africans, Arabs, Maghrebians. And the book is a general reflection of mine. This reflection is about the 5,000-year history of the Chinese civilization. In particular, I have studied some of the major economic movements that China went through after 1979, when it began to carry out reform and opening up under the leadership of Deng Xiaoping. In my view, China has achieved a great deal over the 40 years since 1979, when China liberalized the economy at home and opened up to the rest of the world. Despite some difficulties China met in opening up to the outside world, it has now transformed itself from a developing economy to a rising economy and the second-largest economic power in the world. 

当我们思考这一人类历史上的独特经历时， 即中国在过去40年中的发展，可以说中国很好地保持了其文化同质性，保持了同样的身份认同。可以说中国对其历史文化进行了深入的挖掘和继承。中国的悠久历史和灿烂文化促进了它的发展和现代化。

When we think about this unique experience in human history - China's development over the last 40 years - we can say that China has drawn well on the cultural homogeneity of its past, i.e., it has maintained the same cultural identity all along. It means that it has tapped deeply into its historical and cultural heritage. Its long history and brilliant culture have enabled it to make the transition and modernize itself.

中国的现代化进程也是独树一帜的。它既传承着历史和文化，也在基于自己的经验不断调整着自我的身份认同，而不是盲目地跟从过去西方主导的现代化。中国使自己的文化适应现在的发展，坚持对外开放，辩证地看待历史和文化，这些伟大的举措使中国重返世界舞台。中国领导层参照历史经验，一方面对外开放，一方面采取集中决策的机制。在中国的历史和文化中也有过很多类似的做法。

China’s modernization process is also unique. It has inherited its history and culture, and adapted the recognition of its identity based on its own experience, instead of just copying the modernization process previously led by the West. China's great initiatives to adapt its culture to the present, opening up to the outside world and to take a dialectical approach to history and culture have brought China back onto the world stage. The Chinese leadership, in reference to historical experience, has opened up to the outside world on the one hand and adopted a centralized system of decision-making on the other. There are many similar practices in China's past history and culture.

王冠：

You talked about the Confucianism when analyzing China’s growth and development. How do you think this ancient philosophy has contributed to the modern Chinese society in terms of development, growth and having this social cohesion?

您在分析中国的增长和发展时谈到了儒家思想。

你认为这种古老的哲学对现代中国社会的发展和社会凝聚力有什么贡献

法塔拉·瓦拉卢：

当然了，我刚才也说到，在我的分析中，追溯历史就是要回顾中国现在和过去的关系，尤其是在政治改革方面，还有儒家思想在理论和哲学层面所发挥的作用，这些思想有着重大的价值。在中国的文化价值体系中，最根本的是家庭价值观。它是一切其他价值观念的基础，它涉及到家长的权威、历代的传承、正直的品格、团结、智慧和洞察力。这种价值观从家庭层面一直贯穿到国家层面，正直和团结处处都所有体现。在家长、领袖、君主角色的各层面都可以看到儒家思想的影响。这些价值观念让中国成为了今天这个现代化国家。

Of course, I was saying earlier that to go back in history in my analysis means to review the relationship between the present and the past in China, especially in terms of political reform, and to review the theoretical and philosophical dimension of Confucianism, which has contributed tremendous value all along. Then for these cultural values that China brings, at the very foundation is family values. It is the cornerstone of all values. It involves the parental leadership, the heritage of successive dynasties, integrity of character, solidarity, wisdom and insight. The values then transcend from the family level to the level of the nation, where integrity and solidarity can be seen at all levels. The influence of Confucianism can be seen in the role of parents, chiefs and monarchs. That’s what makes China a modern state today.

在此基础上，我们还应辩证地看待历史和与世界的关系。中国推动全球治理体系的深刻变革，这些变革当然需要包含不同文明的贡献，包括西方文明、伊斯兰世界、亚洲以及中国文明和文化的贡献。不同的文化之间理应彼此交流和借鉴。我个人认为，世界正在经历的是命运攸关的，人类正处在一个转折点上。新冠肺炎疫情肆虐，世界陷入了一场公共卫生危机。新冠肺炎疫情正在改变着世界。正如1945年第二次世界大战结束时那样，世界上的政治平衡被打破，世界秩序被重塑。在政治方面，这种重塑主要体现在联合国的成立和发展；而在经济方面，则是以世界银行和国际货币基金组织以及之后的世界贸易组织的成立为代表。可以说，到2020年、2021年和2022年，一个新的世界将出现在我们眼前。

On top of that, we need to have dialogue with history and with the rest of the world in a dialectical manner. China proposes profound changes in global governance, and these changes should of course include the contributions of different civilizations, including Western, Islamic, Asian and Chinese civilizations and cultures. All these cultures should be learning and communicating with one another. I personally believe that what is happening now is crucial and that we are at a turning point. As the COVID-19 pandemic rages on, the world is in the middle of a public health crisis. The pandemic is causing the world to change in a same way  that it has changed since the Second World War or 1945, when the balance of political power shifted and the world order was reorganized. On the political front, the reorganization took place mainly within the United Nations; on the economic front, it took place mainly with the emergence of the World Bank and the International Monetary Fund and the subsequent creation of the World Trade Organization. It is fair to say that by 2020, 2021 and 2022, a new world has been emerging before our eyes.

一方面，这里面有西方文明的贡献，另一方面也有亚洲，特别是中国的贡献。这就是我通过对儒家思想的思考所想到的。这些深层的文化力量，使我们不得不思考：在21世纪，人类需要让世界变得更加平衡，让每个国家的贡献都有自己的空间。在这些贡献中，既有西方的，它仍然占据着统治地位；还要有其他方面的贡献，比如说中国的贡献。我们还会说到阿拉伯世界的贡献，还有非洲的贡献，它们都应该被包括在内。

On the one hand, there is the contribution of the West; on the other hand, there is the contribution of Asia and China in particular. This is what I find by thinking about the role of Confucianism. These deep cultural forces have led us to think: in the 21st century, we have to reorganize the world towards more balance, which should take into account the respective contributions of every country in the world. Among these contributions are those of the West, which are still dominant, and others, such as those of China. And then we will also talk later about the contribution of the Arab world, and the contribution of Africa, which should all be included.

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