Scott Brinker：MarTech的真正魅力是不同学科与行业的交叉融合 | Morketing曾巧对话04期

营销已经成为一门以技术为动力的学科，因此营销组织必须将技术能力注入到他们的DNA中。

Marketing has become a technology-powered discipline, and therefore marketing organizations must infuse technical capabilities into their DNA.

——Scott Brinker

 左：Morketing CEO 曾巧 右：Scott Brinker

这是一个充满颠覆性改变和创新的时代，而唯一不变的就是变化本身。

数字化转型承载着这个时代的雄心壮志。商业世界不断翻新花样，创造出的各种形变和质变都被“超级增长”的目标所包裹。

作为驱动增长的重要引擎，营销领域也正在进行一场前所未有的数字化变革，这是一场由技术创新引发的旋风。想要抓住时代的机会，就要接受来自速度和复杂性的双重挑战。

站在营销管理与数字世界的交汇处，那是一个潜力巨大的未来。

MarTech正是在这样的大背景之下应运而生的数字营销概念，由美国营销技术之父Scott Brinker于2008年首次提出。传统的营销模式已经不能满足广告主对于触达用户、提供个性化服务的需求，数据驱动的技术手段将会在未来帮助广告主洞察消费者在不同时间、场景的行为习惯和偏好，从而实现精准投放、提高转化。

Gartner去年发布的一项研究表明，美国的大公司通常会把27%的预算用在MarTech上，超过了他们在媒体和广告方面的资金投放。

2019年4月，Scott Brinker发布了最新的2019全球营销技术全景图（Marketing Technology Landscape），涵盖7000多家营销技术领域相关企业和平台，并从广告与促销、内容与体验、社交与关系、商业与销售、数据、管理这6个方面进行分类，展现了营销技术生态的活力与多样性。

9月26日，由Convertlab主办的第三届中国营销技术峰会（MarTech Summit China——MTSC2019）在中国上海举办。Scott Brinker来到现场，与峰会到场嘉宾就MarTech在全球的发展状况进行交流和探讨。

大会结束后， Morketing CEO曾巧与Scott Brinker进行了对话，涉及营销技术全景图、MarTech企业的评估方法以及中美营销技术的对话与相互借鉴。

以下是对话内容：

 关于全球营销技术全景图 

Morketing曾巧：你在创建MarTech全景图时的出发点是什么？您是站在甲方还是乙方的角度来思考这个问题的? 

What is your starting point when creating the Marketing Technology Landscape? Are you thinking of it from the perspective of first party or the second party?

Scott Brinker：我是从高级营销人员的角度出发的。我想要创造一张营销技术全景图来说服他们，营销活动正在变得非常依赖于各种各样的技术，技术人员是非常有价值的。一般来说，营销团队中没有技术人员是不太正常的。当我们年复一年地去做这件事，这张图开始疯狂地生长。它仿佛有了自己的“生命”。

When I started the landscape, it was through the perspective of senior marketing executives because I was trying to make the argument that they were becoming very dependent on a wide collection of technologies to execute their job, and that technical members could be very valuable. It was an unusual thing that marketers did not have technical people on their team. And as we kept doing it year over year, it started to grow in wild and crazy ways. It kind of took on a life of its own.

Morketing曾巧：你曾经说过，创造MarTech全景图最大的挑战在于分类。你的分类逻辑是什么？现在这种挑战对你来说还存在吗？

You said before that the biggest challenge of creating the landscape is categorization. What is your logic of thinking in categorization? Is it still a challenge to you?

Scott Brinker：挑战依然存在，并且一年比一年更难。从技术分析的角度来讲，分类是必要的。但事实上，客户并不在意那些分类，他们真正在意的是消费者体验和企业经营业务的方式。今天MarTech企业的很多创新都是跨类别的。

分类的意义在于它可以让整个全景图系统化、有规律，否则就是一大片杂乱无章的商标。但这些类别是不完美的。那些最令人激动的MarTech企业通常横跨多个类别。所以，理论和现实之间是有差距的。

It is still hard. It gets harder every year. Categorization is something that we do from a technology analyst perspective. But in practice, customers really don’t care about the categories. What they care about is customer journey and the way in which they operate their businesses. A lot of the innovations that happen in MarTech companies today cross the categories. You need to put in some categories otherwise it is just a big mess of logos. But the categories are very imperfect. Some of the most exciting companies are those that across multiple categories. There is a gap between theory and reality.

Morketing曾巧：经过这么多年，创造MarTech全景图对你来讲最大的收获和意义是什么?

After all these years, what is the most rewarding and meaningful experience to you in creating the MarTech landscape?

Scott Brinker：意义和收获主要来自于两方面。首先，我非常敬佩那些使用技术工具的营销人员。因为我能深刻地体会到，找到正确的技术以及了解这个世界正在发生什么样的变化是多么具有挑战性。每年都会有新技术出现去代替已有的技术。

There are wo things. I respect the marketers who have to work with all these different tools because I can appreciate very deeply how challenging it is to figure out what the right technologies are, and to just keep a breath of what is changing. Every year, there are new technologies that change the existing ones.

另一方面，我也非常敬佩MarTech全景图上出现的公司——营销技术供应商。他们在一个非常嘈杂的市场中竞争。我欣赏他们所带来的创新，欣赏他们致力于提供不同于其竞争对手的营销技术服务的决心。这是一项非常艰巨的任务。

But I also have tremendous respect for the companies on the landscape – the marketing technology vendors. They are competing in a very noisy market. I admire the innovations that so many of them bring. I admire the determination that they have to differentiate what they have to offer from all other competitors in the field. It is a tough job.

 如何评估MarTech人员和MarTech企业 

Morketing曾巧：你认为在未来，技术是营销人员的必备技能吗?

It seems that technology is indeed a big challenge for traditional marketers. Do you think that technical capabilities are necessary for marketers in the future?

Scott Brinker：当我在美国主持MarTech大会时，我经常会问观众，他们当中有多少人是从技术背景开始然后进入市场营销领域，又有多少人是从市场营销开始并最终深入到技术领域。我的设想是大多数人从技术领域起步，然后转向市场营销。但实际上，超过一半的观众在刚开始时是纯粹的营销人员，他们对技术有着浓厚的兴趣，然后自学了相关内容。所以，我认为技术背景是有帮助的，但不是必须的。任何人都可以拥抱技术，只要他们有兴趣。热情可以战胜一切。

When I host the MarTech conference in the US, I will often ask the audience how many of them started with technology background and move to marketing, and then how many started marketing and ended up getting deep into technology. My theory would have been that most started in technology and then moved to marketing. But actually, more than half of the audience, they started as pure marketers and then they just got really interested in technology and they taught themselves what they needed to know. So, I think technology background is helpful but not necessary. Any marketer can embrace this if they have the desire and the interest to do so. Passion conquers so many things.

Morketing曾巧：您评估MarTech企业的标准是什么?什么样的企业在你看来是好的MarTech企业？

What are your criteria when evaluating MarTech companies? What is a good MarTech company to you?

Scott Brinker：我觉得可以从3个方面来分析。

第一，如果这家企业已经成立一段时间了，那么最值得关注的就是他们的客户是谁，以及他们有什么样的客户案例。因为你可以看到这家公司是如何帮助其他企业发展的。

I guess three things. If they have been around for a while, the most impressive thing is always who their customers are and what sorts of customer case studies they have. Because you can see examples of how this company helped other businesses thrive.

第二，有一些企业处于进入MarTech领域的早期阶段，他们没有很多的客户和案例经验。这时候，我关注的是他们的品牌故事以及他们的叙述是否吸引人。但有些公司甚至不清楚自己到底想做什么。与拥有清晰愿景和叙述方式的初创企业相比，我担心这些公司可能更难取得成功。

Sometimes when you got an earlier stage of MarTech, they don’t hold a lot of customers and a lot of case studies. And the things I look at are the story that they tell. Did they have a narrative that is compelling? But sometimes they are not even clear about what they are trying to do. So, I worry those companies might have a harder time of succeeding compared to a start-up that has a clear vision or a clear narrative.

第三，通过观察创始团队，尤其是面对一家初创企业时，你可以了解到很多关于这家企业的历史。他们以前创办过企业吗?他们是否兼具商业背景和技术背景？就像风险投资人在对MarTech企业的潜在价值进行评估一样。如果你是MarTech的买家，而你正在关注处于早期阶段的公司，你应该具有同样的视角。

The third thing is that, particularly with a start-up, if you look at the founding team, you can learn a lot about the company’s history: have they built businesses before? Did they bring that mix of backgrounds, somebody with a strong technology background and someone with a strong business background? Just like any venture capitalist would evaluate a MarTech company for a potential investment. I think if you are a buyer of MarTech and you are looking at the early stage companies, you almost want to have that same lens.

中美MarTech市场对比

Morketing曾巧：你对中国的营销生态有什么样的看法？从您的观察来看，中国的MarTech市场发展到什么阶段？作为MarTech的发源地，美国市场又是怎样的情况？这两个区域可以怎样互相学习和借鉴？

What do you think of the overall marketing ecosystems in China and in the US? Which stage are these two markets at respectively? How can these two markets learn from each other?

Scott Brinker：在我回答这个问题之前，我想说，技术肯定是激动人心的。但很多时候，技术并不是全部。这背后真正的故事是两个不同的行业，一个是市场营销，一个是软件开发。很多工具在这个过程中被创造出来。正是这些不同学科和行业之间的融合促进了 MarTech的发展和实践。

Before I answer the question about technology, I would like to say that while the technologies are very inspiring, but in many ways, technology is not the whole story. The true story is that we are coming together from very different professions. Marketing and Software Development. A lot of the tools are produced in the process. It was the collaboration of these very different kinds of disciplines that continued the development and practices in MarTech.

关于技术所处的阶段，我发现一个非常有意思的特点。在美国MarTech出现过爆炸式的增长。但这些大量的营销技术公司，却没有一个完整的组织原则。

So, to answer the question on the technology development in different stages, one of the interesting things about the way MarTech exploded in the US was that you ended up with hundreds of thousands of marketing technology companies and find there was no organized principle among them.

中国则不同。中国公司一开始就希望成为一个大的平台，然后再把其他一些应用纳入进来。我相信这种平台化的建设基础已经非常好，也有很多创新的实践开始融入这个生态。

相信在未来几年，中国的MarTech一定会呈现更加快速的增长。

China has had its different solution. You ended up being in a very large platform that helps get the MarTech accelerated. So, now you started to see this explosion of creative innovations into broader ecosystem around them. So, I have full respect for the variety of applications available in Chinese MarTech landscape that grow dramatically in the next several years.

关于MarTech在北美所处的阶段，你可以观察Gartner的技术成熟度曲线，就会发现一个周期性的发展趋势。有时候会有所下降，之后又会上升。这个叫“幻灭的低谷期”。我觉得在美国，现在差不多是处在这个低谷。人们正从对技术的讨论更多地转向对实践的讨论。我觉得中国的MarTech应该还是在相对早期的阶段，人们对未来技术能够带来的前景感到很兴奋。

As far as the stage where MarTech is at in North America, if you look at Gartner’s hype cycle, sometimes things get hyped up and then they hyped down. It is the “trough of disillusionment”. And then they slowly come back up with the slope of enlightenment. I think in the US, we are kind of in that “trough of disillusionment”. It is now shifting from this discussion about technology to more discussions about practices. While it seems that in China, perhaps, MarTech is still in the earlier stage there is more broad excitement about what technology has promised.

Morketing曾巧：美国现在正处在MarTech发展的低谷期。你认为可能导致它的原因是什么?

The US is now in the “trough of disillusionment”. What do you think might be the potential reason for that?

Scott Brinker：众多MarTech企业会在一个特定的领域或一个特定的解决方案上展开竞争。不可避免的是，总有一些企业做得比另一些更好。有些企业在竞争中获胜，有一些会因为失败而离开。行业的发展趋势并不是趋于稳定的，因为不断有新的竞争者会加入这个赛道。所以有时候我们很难预测一年内会有多少增长或收缩。

Lots of companies are competing in a particular category or for particular kind of solutions. Inevitably, some are doing better than others. What happens is that you have a bunch of competitors. Some will win and some will go away. But it does not stay steady because new competitors will come to this cycle and start again. Sometimes it is very hard to predict how much growth or contraction there is going to be in one year.

 给勇于拓荒的 

中国MarTech企业的建议 

Morketing曾巧：你觉得除了技术以外，中国的企业还应该思考哪些方面？我很认同您刚刚说的中美企业的差异。我认为这正是美国人和中国人思维方式的不同。中国人喜欢大平台、大生态。但听了你的想法，我感觉中国企业可以在具体领域里更加精钻一些。关于这点，你对中国勇于拓荒的的MarTech企业有什么样的建议?

What do you think Chinese companies should be working on, besides technology? I agree with what you said about the differences between Chinese and American companies. I think this is the difference between the way Americans and Chinese think. Chinese people like big platforms. But hearing what you said, I think they should be more sophisticated in a specific field. In this regard, what advice do you have for those pioneering MarTech companies?

Scott Brinker：我觉得很多美国公司其实犯了一个错误，他们没有发现，针对人力的投资有多么重要。他们也没有通过实践的改变，来更加关注人才。既然已经看到了美国企业的起起落落，中国应该可以吸收更多的教训。

我相信中国MarTech企业可以学到的一点就是，一定要在人力资源开发上有合适的投入，并且积极地使用技术，改变人的战略心态。只有这样，我们才可以充分地利用MarTech所带来的灵活性。

I think one of the mistakes that US companies made is that they did not realize how much of investment they needed to make in the people. You have the benefit of having seen companies in the US. I hope that one thing they take away is to get the proper level of investment. Recognize that this is changing. Really harness the agility of MarTech.

Morketing曾巧：中国有很多大型的品牌主，他们以前总是用传统的方式打广告，但是现在想要数字化转型。对于已经习惯使用传统广告方式但现在想要实现数字化转型的大型企业，你有什么建议?

In China, there are many large-scale enterprises that have been used to traditional ways of advertising but now want to go digital. What is your advice for these large companies?

Scott Brinker：美国也有这种情况。如果总公司不适应数字环境正在发生的变化，没有决策权力的子公司要进行数字化转型是非常困难的。

We see this in the US too. If the large company is not tuned to the changes that are happening in the digital environment, it can be really challenging for the sub-companies which do not have a lot of decision-making authority relative to the large company. 

我的建议是要认识到你并不孤单。因此，你可以从两方面寻求帮助。一个是观察竞争对手。现在几乎在每个行业，都有一些企业在利用数字技术。所以，你要做的一件事就是评估你的竞争对手。然后再用评估的结果向执行团队和董事会解释为什么数字化转型很重要。向他们表明：如果你不注意它，它就是一个潜在的竞争威胁。

I think my advice is to recognize that you are not alone. So, there are two things you can look to for external validation. One is actually look at competitors because, almost in every industry now, there are some competitors that are using digital technology to their advantage. So, I think one of the things you do is that you evaluate competitors. And then you use that justification to be able to explain to the executive team and the board why this is important. It is a competitive threat if you don’t pay attention to it.

第二种方法是，你可以求助于一些传统的服务管理咨询机构，它们在帮助其他公司进行数字化转型方面有着丰富的经验。即使只是简单的咨询，也有利于帮助你了解：我们的期望是什么，我们需要的投资是什么，我们的思维和策略需要怎样的改变。然而，这并不容易。这在任何地方都是一个挑战。

The second way you look for external validation is you turn to some of the traditional services management consulting agencies that just have tremendous amount of experience in helping other companies navigate that process. Even if it is just for initial consultation, you are able to understand what the expectations are going to be, what this will take for an investment and what sort of changes to thinking and strategies will be required. It is not easy. It is a challenge everywhere.

往期对话：