马丁•雅克：美国民主正遭受其建国以来最严重的质疑

点击蓝字关注我们

本文大概5000字，读完共需7分钟

受访者马丁·雅克系英国著名学者、中国问题专家、中国人民大学重阳金融研究院外籍高级研究员，本文刊于10月3日中国新闻网，原标题为《马丁•雅克：如果只能照搬西方模式，谈何理解中国？》。

马丁·雅克

中新社德国分社首席记者、中新网研究院副院长彭大伟近日对话马丁·雅克。马丁·雅克表示，要理解中国发展取得的成功，必须理解中国文明的特性，要明白中国不仅仅是一个民族国家（nation state），而是一个文明型国家（civilization state）。他指出，西方许多人试图强行让中国接受西方人权等价值观的心态使得西方几乎不可能真正理解中国。他同时建议西方国家如果真的想理解中国抗疫为何取得成功，就应该先去了解孔子的儒家思想。

中新社德国分社首席记者、中新网研究院副院长彭大伟近日对话英国著名学者、作家马丁·雅克。视频来源：中新视频

以下为对话全文摘编：

彭大伟：在您看来，中国成功的根源是在于其选择的制度路径还是其独有的政治领导力？

马丁·雅克：我们必须在更广的维度上进行探讨，而非仅仅是（西方政治学意义上的）政治领导力或政治体制的讨论。按照美国政治学者福山的观点，中国的政治体制展现出比其它任何国家都强大的延续性。如果回顾中国从秦朝以来的治理模式，能够看到这中间经历了很多不同的阶段，但一些重要的特征始终是十分相似的。1949年以来，中国共产党一直是领导中国的政治力量，但即使在这一阶段，中国仍然从传统社会治理中传承了许多重要的因素。

优秀的政治领导力无疑是一个国家所必须的。我认为从毛泽东、邓小平一直到习近平的中国领导人都有着极为突出的政治领导力。今天的中国处在一个新的时期，已取得的发展成就令中国在国际上扮演更加严肃、更加活跃、更加积极的角色成为可能。

中国的体制极其成功地打造了一支富有才干的领导团队和一群治理人才。从历史的尺度来看，从1978年至今，中国的政府出色地完成了其使命。我还想补充的一点是，政党的自我革新是非常重要的，我认为中国共产党迄今为止在这方面做得非常好。西方一直对中国共产党颇有微词，然而让我们直面现实吧——在过去40多年里，中国领导层的表现远远好于同时期的美国领导层。

资料图：上海外滩，游客欣赏“永远跟党走”光影秀。殷立勤 摄

彭大伟：当美军仓惶撤离时，美国总统拜登说，美军在阿富汗的使命从来不是“国家构建”（nation building）。中国是否正是因为在中国共产党领导下完成了国家构建，才避免了四分五裂、生灵涂炭的厄运？

马丁·雅克：当下在中国共产党领导下的中国无疑处在一个非常好的时代，很可能是中国曾经经历过的任何时代当中最好的一个。这是站在中国漫长历史的肩膀上实现的。正是由于从中国历史中获得的智慧，中国共产党能够纠正其早期犯下的错误，探索出一条成功的治理之道。

中国文明自身的特性也是很重要的一个方面，中国不仅仅是一个（西方意义上的）民族国家（nation state），它是一个文明型国家（civilization state）——如果不能理解这一点的话，也就无法真正理解任何有关中国的问题。

彭大伟：您曾提到西方理解中国抗疫模式需要先了解孔子的学说，您还提到西方对此缺乏应有的认知。能否详细阐述这一问题？

马丁·雅克：西方的许多中国问题专家并未真正理解中国，造成这一点的原因是西方人在成长阶段接受的教育是“西方做事情的方式是全世界其它地方学习的模范”，西方的范式比全球其它任何地方的都要优越——西方的运作方式、制度、规范……都成为了用来衡量其它国际的准绳。

例如，在“人权”这样的争议话题上，西方从未真正尝试着去理解中国是如何实践其人权理念的。这是由于双方截然不同的历史传统，可追溯到孔子的时代。在孔子的学说中，个体不是世界的中心，人们重视的是集体，集体可以是一个家庭，也可以是范围更大的集体，一直到整个中国。只有当置身于一个集体、一个社会当中时，个体才具有意义。

资料图：南京小学生行古礼点朱砂“开笔破蒙”，孩子们在南京夫子庙大成殿内的孔子像前留影。泱波 摄

在我看来，围绕人权问题的大部分争吵都是基于西方希望想将其思维模式输送给中国，而后者并未接受。这么做意味着这些人并不真正需要理解中国，因为最终他们还是会相信自己是对的、中国是错的。如果动辄就向中国喊话“你们只需要照我们的方式来”，那还谈何理解中国呢？

在诚实和谦虚这两方面，西方在疫情期间的表现无疑都是不及格的。（对中国抗疫方式的指责和后来围绕病毒溯源的纷争）真的都只是一种可耻的、用于分化和转移注意力的借口。

中国是如何取得抗疫成功的？第一，中国政府有非常好、非常清晰的抗疫策略。第二点，也是西方从未探讨过的一点，就是人的因素非常重要。中国人拥有很强大的社会凝聚力和团结度，这种传统深深地植入到中华民族的国族意识当中。这也是为什么美国在抗疫中的表现如此差劲——美国没有中国重视集体的观念。

马丁·雅克：要理解中国抗疫，西方最好读一读孔子 视频来源：中新视频

彭大伟：白宫和美国共和党政客热衷于在新冠溯源等议题上攻击中国，这完全无关严肃的科学研究，而是一种将病毒作为武器的诡辩术？

马丁·雅克：这是一种转移视线的企图，由于美国在疫情期间表现得糟糕透顶，而中国表现得非常突出，政客们不得不出手掩盖这一事实，而这种做法已经给西方带来了国际关系层面上的危机。美国和整个西方抗疫是如此乏善可陈，以至于他们只能一再转向病毒起源的问题。我认为西方国家政府和媒体在这当中的角色是可悲的——并非每一家都是这样，但有太多政府和太多的媒体都热衷于甩锅了。

马丁·雅克：美国民主正遭受其建国以来最严重的质疑 视频来源：中新视频

彭大伟：您如何看待中国共产党带领中国实现复兴的百年历程？

马丁·雅克：这一切成就是属于全体中国人民的，每个中国人都为中国今天的成就作出了一份贡献。当然，要想实现这一切，就必须得有卓越的政治领导，中国共产党恰好是这样一支领导力量。从1949年到1978年再到如今，中国发生的变化是常人无法想象的，非常伟大。中国共产党在我看来是现代人类世界最成功的政治组织，而且遥遥领先其它政党。西方时常会拿苏共进行比较，但中国共产党和苏共完全没有可比性。中国共产党在自我革新、自我重塑方面做得非常好，事实上他们不仅重塑了党，也重塑了中国。执政地位不是理所当然的，政党必须与时俱进，总是着眼未来。中国文化很善于着眼未来。中国共产党传承了中国文化的这一思维特质。这也是为什么中国共产党总能带领自身和国家走出低谷。

邓小平的改革从经济政策上引入了市场的作用。很多人事后说这是“西化”，但恰恰相反，中国开创了一种全新的独特体制，破除了改革开放前束缚发展的要素，将自身发展融入了全球市场。改革开放对中国而言是一种极为自信的思路，因为一旦选择对外开放，中国就得和资本主义世界竞争，面对的竞争对手来自（当时）富裕得多、受教育程度高得多的西方国家。这是非常关键的决断，西方当时没有多少人相信中国能够取得成功，但是中国仍然以强大的自信选择了开放。

资料图：山东港口青岛港自动化码头进行卸货作业。张进刚 摄

彭大伟：您对中国推进实现共同富裕有何看法？

马丁·雅克：这是令人非常感兴趣的一项最新发展。西方目前已有的反应都是基于一种几乎是本能的反华态度在驱动——条件反射地认为这是“负面的”。然而西方也正在面临和中国同样的贫富分化问题。

尽管有很强烈的呼声，但美国没有为消除其巨大的不平等问题做任何事。欧洲也不同程度地存在这一问题。20世纪80年代以来，新自由主义的盛行造成不平等问题持续蔓延。中国如今正在试着找到应对之策。互联网成瘾的问题也是一样。这些问题都是真实存在的，必须得到应对、提出解决方案。

马丁·雅克：中国推动共同富裕是在做西方该做而没有做的事 视频来源：中新视频

以下为采访英文版实录

(ECNS) --In the latest "W.E. Talk", Martin Jacques, a British journalist, editor and world-leading expert on China joined the exclusive interview by Peng Dawei from China News Service.

He said that to understand the success of China's development, we must understand the characteristics of Chinese civilization since China is not just a nation-state, but a civilization state, with many thoughts deeply rooted in Confucianism. He pointed out that Westerners have been brought up to essentially believe their way of doing things is the exemplar for the rest of the world, while there is no serious attempt in the West to understand how human rights operate in China.

Mr. Jacques also criticized the "pathetic" behavior of U.S. politicians' stigmatizing China's efforts in battling the pandemic. 

Here's an excerpt of the dialogue:  

Peng Dawei: Do you believe that the success of China is rooted in its political system or in its unique political leadership?

Martin Jacques: I don't think either of those actually explain China's success. I would say China's rise is also associated with its historical performance over a very long time. You got to ask deeper questions like what is it about Chinese culture, and Chinese society that has enabled this to happen.

And we should remember Fukuyama's theory on China's political system, stating that this country displays more continuity than any other country in the world. In other words, if you trace the underlying characteristics of the governing system in China, since Qin Dynasty, it's remained surprisingly or maybe predictably, very similar. The Communist Party has been the governing force in China since 1949. But even during this period, you can still see these very powerful lines of continuity with the imperial period, the dynastic period of China.

Now, on the question, specifically, I think that you obviously need very good political leadership. And I think China has had extremely good political leadership over a long period. Mao Zedong recreated China, reconstituted China in a form that enabled what has happened since that period to happen. Then you have Deng Xiaoping. Deng, in my view, was an extraordinary leader of China. He knew that China needed a very different kind of economic and political strategy. He had a remarkable impact on China and the world.

China's system worked extremely well by creating a governing class and a governing leadership, which has been extremely capable. Starting with 1978, to the present, it’s by any historical standards extraordinary what it's managed to do. And for a party to be extraordinarily successful, like the Chinese Communist Party, it will have to keep reproducing itself. Now it's been very good at this so far. The Chinese leadership has way outperformed the American leadership in this regard.

Peng Dawei: Joe Biden mentioned the mission of the U.S. troops in Afghanistan is not nation-building, but, to my understanding, the Communist Party has been all about nation-building to prevent China from becoming a battlefield of warlords. So do you think it is the role of the party that makes China so different? What's your opinion, if you compare it with any of its regional neighbors?

Martin Jacques: I think that's obviously very important. I don't think that's the only reason. I mean China has had a very long existence. Truly, it's been divided at times, very important times, but basically the extraordinary thing about China, is it's huge and it stayed together. This is an extraordinary historical fact about China. And so, this to me, is about leadership, but it's also about the culture.

In this era, there's no question that the Chinese Communist party has been extraordinary. And there's no question in my mind that this era is probably the best era China's ever had in its history. But you know, it stands on the shoulders of a long history. And I think the achievement of the Chinese Communist Party lies in its efforts to find a way of governing China, of relating to the history of China.

It is also attributed to the characteristics of Chinese civilization, because China is not just a nation state, it's a civilization state. If you don't understand that, I don't think you really understand anything about China. And the Chinese Communist Party has been so far, very successful in this respect.

Peng Dawei: Let’s talk about misunderstandings about how China successfully fought the coronavirus. Last time we discussed a little bit about Confucianism, and the role of nation in the Chinese context, which is quite different from that of Europe. Do you think the West really needs more background knowledge to understand China in this sense?

Martin Jacques: Yeah well. I would say the West does not understand China. It makes precious little attempt to try to understand China. And it tries to understand it in the present context but doesn't attempt a deeper understanding of it. Because Westerners have been brought up to essentially believe their way of doing things is the exemplar for the rest of the world and the Western paradigm is superior to all others.

Take a really controversial issue as an example, like human rights. There's no really serious attempt in the West to understand how human rights operate in China. Within the West, I mean there's simply a total different tradition and this really goes back a long time, probably most importantly, to Confucius. In Confucianism, the individual is not taken as a center. It stresses the concept of the group. The individual only has a meaning in the context of the group and society. This is utterly different. It is the opposite in the United States. It is not completely opposite to European countries, but it's very different, still.

I think most of the argument circles around this question of a projection of a Western way of thinking onto China. That means they don't really need to understand China. They just want China to "Do it like us".

When it came to the pandemic, the first reaction was to condemn China. It’s really a shameful exercise of diversion and distraction.

Then how did China succeed so well? Firstly, the government had a very good, clear strategy. Secondly, this is something never discussed in the West that amongst the Chinese people, there was a very powerful tradition and sense of social cohesion and social solidarity. It goes back to Confucius and runs deep in the Chinese side. That's why they did so well. And that's why the United States, for example, did so badly, because you know they don't have that sort of concept.

Peng Dawei: Why do the White House and United States, the politicians, all attack China on the origin of the virus. I think it is kind of being weaponized as a tool to attack China. It’s nothing about science. It’s nothing about real research. It's only rhetoric at this point.

Martin Jacques:I think it's an attempted diversion. They need to cover up the fact that they performed so abysmally and China has performed so well. This is an international relation crisis for the West and so. They really got nothing, they've got no shots in the locker, except, for example, to go back to the origins question. I think it's truly pathetic, the way that Western governments and media handle it and so on. It's not all of them, but too many of them have played this game.

You've got to draw the conclusion, I think, from this period of history, that Western governance is in big trouble. It's a straightforward test of governance. And the West has failed, while China succeeded. So the consequence of all this is that the West can no longer easily boast about itself.

Peng Dawei：The CPC has recently celebrated the 100th anniversary of its founding. So, what's your opinion about the 100 years during which the CPC has led China to great rejuvenation and what role has the party been playing in the process?

Martin Jacques: This achievement is the achievement of all Chinese people. Everyone in China has made a contribution to this. But of course, to do something like this, you need extremely good political leadership. And the Chinese Communist Party has been a remarkable leader of China. To go from where they were in 1949 or in 1978 to where they are now, is incredible, in my view. The Chinese Communist Party in the modern period, at least is the most successful political party in the world. I think communist parties have been getting stuck, getting bogged down, losing their way, and eventually disintegrating, which happened, of course, in the Soviet Union. But the Chinese Communist Party has been extraordinarily good at reinventing itself and regenerating itself and thereby also reinventing China. There are no guarantees in political leadership. You have to keep moving with the times and always anticipate possibilities. Of course, Chinese culture is very good at this. And the Chinese Communist Party inherited that way of thinking ahead.

Deng Xiaoping made two great reforms. Subsequently many people thought it's like Westernization. No, to the contrary, it was not Westernization. They created a system which was quite new, different, unique and remarkably successful. They integrated themselves with the world.

It was a confident way of thinking, because you're competing with the capitalist world when you open yourselves up to capitalists, which were much richer and better educated at the time.

Peng Dawei: Last time you told me about your reading of China's common prosperity nowadays, what's your take on this issue?

Martin Jacques:I think this is a very interesting development. I think it's sort of confounding Western thinking. They're not sure exactly what to make of it because they're so congenitally sinophobic at the moment. The initial reflex action is to be negative about it. But the problems that China is confronted with, in this context, are exactly the same problems in the way the West is confronted.

Take the question of inequality for example. Now, inequality is a huge problem in the United States, but also everywhere more or less in Europe. It's grown steadily in the neoliberal era since 1980. And so China is trying to find ways of tackling it, trying to find ways of confronting it. So it is with the problem of the Internet. Every parent that I know, including myself when my son was younger, worried about how much screen-time he should allow during the day. These are real problems. And they really need to be addressed and they really need solutions.

推荐阅读

// 人大重阳    

/// 

RDCY

中国人民大学重阳金融研究院（人大重阳）成立于2013年1月19日，是重阳投资向中国人民大学捐赠并设立教育基金运营的主要资助项目。

作为中国特色新型智库，人大重阳聘请了全球数十位前政要、银行家、知名学者为高级研究员，旨在关注现实、建言国家、服务人民。目前，人大重阳下设7个部门、运营管理4个中心(生态金融研究中心、全球治理研究中心、中美人文交流研究中心、中俄人文交流研究中心)。近年来，人大重阳在金融发展、全球治理、大国关系、宏观政策等研究领域在国内外均具有较高认可度。

扫二维码｜关注我们

微信号｜rdcy2013

新浪微博｜@人大重阳

我知道你“在看”哟～