TED-当网络上的言语攻击失控时，会带来什么后果？

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TED简介：2015 | 在很长一段时间里，乔恩·朗森都为推特的一个功能喝彩：让无处诉说之人可以发声。社交媒体平台让每个人都能畅所欲言，对看到的不公正奋起反击。但不久后，情况直转而下。这是一次慷慨激昂的演讲，朗森向我们展示了一种现象：很多时候我们在网上的发言都以乱喷收场——我们是时候好好反思一下应该如何同他人进行线上互动了。

演讲者：乔恩·朗森

片长：17：12

https://v.qq.com/txp/iframe/player.html?vid=f0513sy4ij3&width=500&height=375&auto=0

| 中英对照演讲稿 |

In the early days of Twitter, it was like aplace of radical de-shaming. People would admit shameful secrets aboutthemselves, and other people would say, "Oh my God, I'm exactly thesame." Voiceless people realized that they had a voice, and it waspowerful and eloquent. 

Twitter刚出不久时，像是个奇葩类的供洗耻的地方。人们会直讳一些羞于启齿的秘密，其他人就会搭腔说，“天啊，我跟你一模一样。”欲言无处诉的人意识到自己有话语权了，而且还能声势浩大、振振有词。

If a newspaper ran some racist or homophobic column, werealized we could do something about it. We could get them. We could hit themwith a weapon that we understood but they didn't -- a social media shaming.Advertisers would withdraw their advertising. When powerful people misusedtheir privilege, we were going to get them. This was like the democratizationof justice. Hierarchies were being leveled out. We were going to do thingsbetter.

遇到哪份报张发表了种族歧视或反同性恋的言论时，我们就知道可以采取行动了。我们能把他们揪出来。我们可以用炮轰他们，——用他们觉得陌生而我们得心应手的武器，叫社交媒体羞辱法。广告商就会撤回广告。遇到有权有势之士滥用特权的时候，我们就可以把他们给揪出来。简直就像司法的民主化。阶层差异被推平了。很多事情我们都可以做得更好了。

Soon after that, a disgraced pop sciencewriter called Jonah Lehrer -- he'd been caught plagiarizing and faking quotes,and he was drenched in shame and regret, he told me. And he had the opportunityto publicly apologize at a foundation lunch. This was going to be the most importantspeech of his life. 

那之后不久，一位名叫乔纳·雷尔的知名科学作家，做了件丢人的事——抄袭和捏造引据，并因之深陷羞辱和悔恨，他对我说，他得到一个机会可以在一次基金午餐会上公开道歉。那将会是他生命中最重要的一次讲话的了。

Maybe it would win him some salvation. He knew before hearrived that the foundation was going to be live-streaming his event, but whathe didn't know until he turned up, was that they'd erected a giant screenTwitter feed right next to his head. (Laughter) Another one in a monitor screenin his eye line.

可能会为他挽回一点颜面。出席之前他知道该基金会将要流媒体直播他的讲话，但他没有料到的是，到了会场之后，才发现现场竖起了一个巨大的推特荧屏，就挨他的头旁边。（笑声）另一个电脑荧屏则在他的视线之内。

I don't think the foundation did thisbecause they were monstrous. I think they were clueless: I think this was aunique moment when the beautiful naivety of Twitter was hitting theincreasingly horrific reality.

该基金会的如此做法我不认为是出于豺狼之性，我认为他们是愚昧而已：以我之见，就在那特别一刻推特的美丽单纯与现实的日益残酷来了场正面碰撞。

And here were some of the Tweets that werecascading into his eye line, as he was trying to apologize:"Jonah Lehrer, boring us intoforgiving him." (Laughter)

以下几条是当时在现场出现的推文，当时他正准备道歉：“乔纳·雷尔，想通过让我们无聊的方式来原谅他。”（笑声）

And, "Jonah Lehrer has not proven thathe is capable of feeling shame."

“乔纳·雷尔仍未证明自己是个会羞耻的人。”

That one must have been written by the bestpsychiatrist ever, to know that about such a tiny figure behind a lectern.

写这条的人一定是史上最高明的精神医生，远远看一眼讲台后的小小身影就能进行诊断

And, "Jonah Lehrer is just a friggingsociopath."

“乔纳·雷尔个彻头彻尾的变态狂。“

That last word is a very human thing to do,to dehumanize the people we hurt. It's because we want to destroy people butnot feel bad about it. Imagine if this was an actual court, and the accused wasin the dark, begging for another chance, and the jury was yelling out,"Bored! Sociopath!" (Laughter)

最后一个词的使用是人性使然，是为了把我们要伤害的人非人化。因为我们想在毁灭别人的同时自己感觉不到痛苦。想象一下如果这是在法庭里面，被告还蒙在鼓里，乞求给予第二次机会，陪审员已经先声夺人，”无聊啊！你个变态！“（笑声）

You know, when we watch courtroom dramas,we tend to identify with the kindhearted defense attorney, but give us thepower, and we become like hanging judges.

对吧，一般我们看法律剧的时候，总倾向于那个心地善良的辩方大律师，而一旦拥有了权力，我们就变成爱判死刑的法官了。

Power shifts fast. We were getting Jonahbecause he was perceived to have misused his privilege, but Jonah was on thefloor then, and we were still kicking, and congratulating ourselves forpunching up. And it began to feel weird and empty when there wasn't a powerfulperson who had misused their privilege that we could get. A day without ashaming began to feel like a day picking fingernails and treading water.

势头如风，瞬息万变。之前，我们把乔纳给揪出来，因为他滥用自己的特权，但当乔纳已经倒下了，我们还上去补两脚，还以为自己英雄了得，沾沾自喜。而当找不到一个滥用职权的人可供攻击时，甚至会感到寂寞空虚冷。哪天无人可辱，就觉得人生无望，惶惶不可终日了。

Let me tell you a story. It's about a womancalled Justine Sacco. She was a PR woman from New York with 170 Twitter followers,and she'd Tweet little acerbic jokes to them, like this one on a plane from NewYork to London: [Weird German Dude: You're in first class. It's 2014. Get somedeodorant." -Inner monologue as inhale BO. Thank god for pharmaceuticals.]

这里给各位说个故事。一位名叫贾丝婷·萨科的女士的故事。她住纽约，从事公关工作，有170位推特粉丝，不时会发些尖酸刻薄的笑话。比如这个，是她从纽约去伦敦途中在飞机上发的：[怪异德国男：你搭的可是头等舱啊。都2014年了。也不搽点除臭剂。]——呼入体臭时的内心独白。幸亏我有药。]

So Justine chuckled to herself, and pressed send, and got no replies, and feltthat sad feeling that we all feel when the Internet doesn't congratulate us forbeing funny. (Laughter) Black silence when the Internet doesn't talk back. Andthen she got to Heathrow, and she had a little time to spare before her finalleg, so she thought up another funny little acerbic joke:

之后贾丝婷对自己笑了笑，按了发送键，没得到任何回应，顿感一阵悲哀，我们也一样在网上说了个笑话，没人搭理，我们也悲哀。（笑声）网上无人回应，简直是人间悲剧。抵达希思罗机场后，她还有点空闲时间要打发，离下班飞机起飞还有段时间，她又编了一尖酸小段子：

[Going to Africa. Hope I don't get AIDS.Just kidding. I'm white!]

[去非洲路上。希望到时不会染上艾滋病。说个笑呵。俺可是白人哦！]

And she chuckled to herself, pressed send,got on the plane, got no replies, turned off her phone, fell asleep, woke up 11hours later, turned on her phone while the plane was taxiing on the runway, andstraightaway there was a message from somebody that she hadn't spoken to sincehigh school, that said, "I am so sorry to see what's happening toyou." And then another message from a best friend, "You need to callme right now. You are the worldwide number one trending topic on Twitter."(Laughter)

她又自己笑了笑，按了发送键，上了飞机，也没得到回应，关上手机，睡觉去了，11个小时后醒来，打开手机，飞机还在跑道上滑行，旋即，她收到一条短信，来自一个她中学毕业后就没见过的人的，短信说:"对于你经历的这一切，我真替你难过。“还有一个短信来自她最要好的朋友：”马上给我打电话。你成了推特全球第一的热门话题。“

What had happened is that one of her 170followers had sent the Tweet to a Gawker journalist, and he retweeted it to his15,000 followers: [And now, a funny holiday joke from IAC's PR boss] And thenit was like a bolt of lightning. A few weeks later, I talked to the Gawkerjournalist. I emailed him and asked him how it felt, and he said, "It feltdelicious." And then he said, "But I'm sure she's fine."

发生了啥事呢，就是她的那170个粉丝当中有一人将这条推文转发给了Gawker网的一个记者，后者又转发给自己的15，000名粉丝：[现送上：IAC公关一姐的假期段子]接下来就一发不可收拾了。几周之后我联系过那个Gawker网记者的。我电邮给他，问他当时感觉如何，他说：“真是痛快之极啊。”接着他说：“我敢保证她没事。”

But she wasn't fine, because while sheslept, Twitter took control of her life and dismantled it piece by piece. Firstthere were the philanthropists: [If @JustineSacco's unfortunate words ...bother you, join me in supporting @CARE's work in Africa.] [In light of ...disgusting, racist tweet, I'm donating to @care today] Then came the beyondhorrified: [... no words for that horribly disgusting racist as fuck tweet fromJustine Sacco. I am beyond horrified.]

但她怎么可能没事，在她睡着的时候，推特掌控了她的生活，并让其分崩离析。首先下手的是那些慈善家：[如果@贾丝婷·萨科的不慎之言使你不安，来和我一起支持非洲的援助工作吧。][读了那篇恶心的种族论推文，我今天就捐款给@Care。全文见。.]继而是更可怕的：[无语。极度种族论，来自贾丝婷·萨科的操蛋贴。我简直惊呆了。]

Was anybody on Twitter that night? A few ofyou. Did Justine's joke overwhelm your Twitter feed the way it did mine? It didmine, and I thought what everybody thought that night, which was, "Wow,somebody's screwed! Somebody's life is about to get terrible!" 

在座的有那天晚上上推特的吗？好几位。你们的推特也像我的那样被贾丝婷的段子刷屏了吗？我是被刷屏了，当时就和大家想的一样，就是：”哇塞，有人捅了马蜂窝啦！有人要倒大霉了！“

And I satup in my bed, and I put the pillow behind my head, and then I thought, I'm notentirely sure that joke was intended to be racist. Maybe instead of gleefullyflaunting her privilege, she was mocking the gleeful flaunting of privilege.There's a comedy tradition of this, like South Park or Colbert or Randy Newman.

然后我在床上坐起来，抓起枕头搁脑袋后面，然后琢磨，我真不确定这段子真的有种族主义倾向。也许她并不是在洋洋得意地显摆自己，只是在嘲讽这种显摆而已。喜剧里都有这样的传统，如《南方公园》或科尔伯特或兰迪·纽曼。

Maybe Justine Sacco's crime was not being as good at it as Randy Newman. Infact, when I met Justine a couple of weeks later in a bar, she was justcrushed, and I asked her to explain the joke, and she said, "Living inAmerica puts us in a bit of a bubble when it comes to what is going on in theThird World. I was making of fun of that bubble."

也许贾丝婷·萨科之罪在于嘲讽得不如兰迪·纽曼高明吧。事实呢，两周后我和贾丝婷在一酒吧碰了头，她人已完全崩溃，我让她对那个段子做个解释，她说：”生活在美国就像生活在一个气泡里似的，不知道第三世界到底发生了什么。我是在嘲笑那个气泡。“

You know, another woman on Twitter thatnight, a New Statesman writer Helen Lewis, she reviewed my book on publicshaming and wrote that she Tweeted that night, "I'm not sure that her jokewas intended to be racist," and she said straightaway she got a fury ofTweets saying, "Well, you're just a privileged bitch, too." And so toher shame, she wrote, she shut up and watched as Justine's life got torn apart.

那晚在推特上的还有NewStatesman杂志的作家，海伦·刘易斯，她给我关于众羞的那本书写了书评，她写到，当晚她也发个推文：”我不敢肯定她的笑话是藏有种族论用心的，“马上她就收到一大堆回帖，说:"呵，那你跟她一样也是个养尊处优的母狗了。”就这样，她写到，碍于羞愧，她就闭了嘴，静观贾丝婷的生活被瓦解了。

It started to get darker: [Everyone goreport this cunt @JustineSacco] Then came the calls for her to be fired. [Goodluck with the job hunt in the new year. #GettingFired] Thousands of peoplearound the world decided it was their duty to get her fired. [@JustineSaccolast tweet of your career. #SorryNotSorry Corporations got involved, hoping tosell their products on the back of Justine's annihilation: [Next time you planto tweet something stupid before you take off, make sure you are getting on a@Gogo flight!] 

事情愈发糟糕：[大家都快来举报这个X婆@贾丝婷·萨科]接着就有人开始说该把她炒了。[祝新年寻工好运。#要找工]全球成千上万的人将把贾丝婷炒鱿鱼视为己任。[@贾丝婷·萨科你职途的最后一帖。#悔过不悔过]商家也跑来凑热闹，希望能趁机兜售产品，都是顺着贾丝婷之途来的：[下一次你登机前要发个猪脑帖的话，务必先买了@Gogo机舱无线网！]

A lot of companies were making good moneythat night. You know, Justine's name was normally Googled 40 times a month.That month, between December the 20th and the end of December, her name wasGoogled 1,220,000 times. And one Internet economist told me that that meantthat Google made somewhere between 120,000 dollars and 468,000 dollars fromJustine's annihilation, whereas those of us doing the actual shaming -- we gotnothing. (Laughter) We were like unpaid shaming interns for Google. (Laughter)

不少公司在那天晚上赚了一大笔。贾丝婷的名字平时被谷歌的次数是每月40次。那个月，即12月20日至该月底，她的名字被谷歌了122万次。一位网络经济学家告诉说那意味着谷歌赚了约12万至46万8千美元之间全有赖于贾丝婷的毁灭，而我们这些喷子，连一个子儿都没拿到。（笑声）我们就好像是谷歌的免薪喷子实习生似的。

And then came the trolls: [I'm actuallykind of hoping Justine Sacco gets aids? lol] Somebody else on that wrote,"Somebody HIV-positive should rape this bitch and then we'll find out ifher skin color protects her from AIDS." And that person got a free pass.Nobody went after that person. 

继而就是那些寻畔的了：[我不知为何挺希望贾丝婷·萨科真染上艾滋的。大笑]有人在那上面写道：“应该找个艾滋阳性的去强奸那母狗，我们就能知道她的肤色能否保护她不染艾滋了。”如此恶言者倒免挨板子了。竟没有一个人去追剿那家伙。

We were all so excited about destroying Justine,and our shaming brains are so simple-minded, that we couldn't also handledestroying somebody who was inappropriately destroying Justine. Justine wasreally uniting a lot of disparate groups that night, from philanthropists to"rape the bitch." [@JustineSacco I hope you get fired! You dementedbitch... Just let the world know you're planning to ride bare back while inAfrica.]

我们人人都为了要毁灭贾丝婷而忙得不可开交。我们的众辱心态是如此的一心一意，竟无法同时毁灭那些正在无理毁灭贾丝婷的人。贾丝婷在那一晚着实团结了许多种类各异的群体，从做慈善的，到叫喊“强奸那母狗”的都有。[@贾丝婷·萨科我愿你被炒鱿鱼!你这疯癫的母狗... 向全世界宣告你在非洲的时候将不戴套就做吧。]

Women always have it worse than men. When aman gets shamed, it's, "I'm going to get you fired." When a woman gets shamed, it's, "I'm going to get you fired and raped and cut out your uterus."

这类事件中女性遭受的侮辱总比男性更糟糕。男性在遭受众辱时，通常是：“我要搞到你被炒鱿鱼为止。”当女性被众辱是，通常是：“我要搞到你被炒鱿鱼，被强奸、割掉你的子宫。“

And then Justine's employers got involved:[IAC on @JustineSacco tweet: This is an outrageous, offensive comment. Employeein question currently unreachable on an intl flight.] And that's when the angerturned to excitement: [All I want for Christmas is to see @JustineSacco's facewhen her plane lands and she checks her inbox/voicemail. #fired] [Oh man,@justinesacco is going to have the most painful phone-turning-on moment everwhen her plane lands.] 

然后呢，贾丝婷的雇主也搭腔了：[IAC就@贾丝婷·萨科发表推文：该帖出言不逊，令人发指。事主雇员目前在飞机上，暂时联络不上。]就这样，愤怒变成了兴奋：[我最想要的圣诞礼物就是看到@贾丝婷·萨科的航班降落后，查看邮箱或留言时收到#被炒鱿鱼了][哇噻，当@贾丝婷·萨科的航班降落后，她将迎来最痛苦的开手机时刻。]

[We are about to watch this @JustineSacco bitch getfired. In REAL time. Before she even KNOWS she's getting fired.] What we hadwas a delightful narrative arc. We knew something that Justine didn't. Can youthink of anything less judicial than this? Justine was asleep on a plane andunable to explain herself, and her inability was a huge part of the hilarity.On Twitter that night, we were like toddlers crawling towards a gun. Somebodyworked out exactly which plane she was on, so they linked to a flight trackerwebsite. 

[大伙可以齐齐目睹@贾丝婷·萨科这母狗被炒啦。现场直播。她自己还蒙在鼓里就被炒鱿鱼了。]这无疑成了一段精彩的大题目：尽人皆晓的，唯贾丝婷毫不知情。还有比这个更不公正的事情吗？贾丝婷当时在飞机上睡着，没机会为自己解释，而这恰恰是这场闹剧的一大原因。那天晚上，大家在推特上面就像小屁孩爬着去够玩具枪似的。有人查到她的航班号，就把航班号链接到一个航班跟踪网站上面。

[British Airways Flight 43 On-time - arrives in 1 hour 34 minutes] Ahashtag began trending worldwide: # hasJustineLandedYet? [It is kinda wild tosee someone self-destruct without them even being aware of it.#hasJustineLandedYet] [Seriously. I just want to go home to go to bed, buteveryone at the bar is SO into #HasJustineLandedYet. Can't look away. Can't leave.] 

[英国航空43次航班准点--1小时34分后达到]马上，这一标签开始在全球走红：#贾丝婷到达没有？[围观某人的自我毁灭真是叫人兴奋，尤其是当事人还毫不知情#贾丝婷到达没有？][说实话，我本来想回家睡觉的，但是酒吧里人人都在讨论#贾丝婷到达没有？没法不听，没法走开。]

[#HasJustineLandedYet may be the best thing to happen to my Fridaynight.] [Is no one in Cape Town going to the airport to tweet her arrival? Comeon, twitter! I'd like pictures] And guess what? Yes there was. [@JustineSaccoHAS in fact landed at Cape Town international. And if you want to know what itlooks like to discover that you've just been torn to shreds because of amisconstrued liberal joke, not by trolls, but by nice people like us, this iswhat it looks like: [... She's decided to wear sunnies as a disguise.]

[#贾丝婷到达没有？可真是我在周五晚的最佳节目。][在开普敦真的没有人去机场发推报道她的达到吗？加把劲儿，推特！俺想看图呢]不用猜，也真的有图片。[@贾丝婷·萨科确实已经抵达开普敦国际机场。如果各位想知道当一个人发现因自己随便开的一个玩笑而被千刀万剐是种什么体验，而且下手的不是网络流氓，而是像你我一样的好人，读读这些推文就明白了：[她选了副墨镜来做掩护。]

So why did we do it? I think some peoplewere genuinely upset, but I think for other people, it's because Twitter isbasically a mutual approval machine. We surround ourselves with people who feelthe same way we do, and we approve each other, and that's a really goodfeeling. And if somebody gets in the way, we screen them out. And do you knowwhat that's the opposite of? It's the opposite of democracy. We wanted to showthat we cared about people dying of AIDS in Africa. Our desire to be seen to becompassionate is what led us to commit this profoundly un-compassionate act. AsMeghan O'Gieblyn wrote in the Boston Review, "This isn't social justice.It's a cathartic alternative."

我们为什么会做出这样的行为的呢？依我之见，有的人确实是因为被冒犯了，但更多的人是因为推特本是个互相恭维的工具。我们只允许志同道合的人在周围出现，我们互相恭维，感觉好极了。遇到意见不一的，我们就轰走他们。知道这种行为与什么对立吗？与民主对立。我们想对非洲濒临死亡的艾滋病人表达关怀。我们太过急于表现自己的同情心，结果却导致了如此缺乏同情心的举动。像梅根·奥吉布林在《波士顿评论》上写到："这根本不是社会正义。这是一种宣泄。”

For the past three years, I've been goingaround the world meeting people like Justine Sacco -- and believe me, there's alot of people like Justine Sacco. There's more every day. And we want to thinkthey're fine, but they're not fine. The people I met were mangled. They talkedto me about depression, and anxiety and insomnia and suicidal thoughts. Onewoman I talked to, who also told a joke that landed badly, she stayed home fora year and a half. Before that, she worked with adults with learningdifficulties, and was apparently really good at her job.

在过去的三年，我走遍世界，走访多位和贾丝婷·萨科有一样遭遇的人说实话，这样的人还真不少。每天都有更多同样遭遇的。我们都倾向于相信他们没事，但事实并非如此。每一个人都深受伤害。他们说自己感到抑郁，焦虑、失眠，甚至想过自杀。其中一位女士，也是因为开了个玩笑，最后悲剧收场她把自己关在家里足足一年半。之前她的职业是帮助有学习障碍的成年人，并且是个相当称职的人。

Justine was fired, of course, becausesocial media demanded it. But it was worse than that. She was losing herself.She was waking up in the middle of the night, forgetting who she was. She wasgot because she was perceived to have misused her privilege. And of course,that's a much better thing to get people for than the things we used to getpeople for, like having children out of wedlock. But the phrase "misuse ofprivilege" is becoming a free pass to tear apart pretty much anybody wechoose to. It's becoming a devalued term, and it's making us lose our capacityfor empathy and for distinguishing between serious and unserioustransgressions.

毫无疑问，贾丝婷把工作丢了，因为这是社交媒体上的民意。但更糟的是，她逐渐迷失了自己。有时她半夜醒来，竟然不记得自己是谁。人们把她揪出来，是因为她肆无忌惮秀优越。这比起其他的原因大概好很多吧。从前我们把人揪出来是因为未婚先孕。但“秀优越”一词已经成了一张通用票，用来打压任何一个我们想打压的人。这词已变得毫无价值，让我们失去同情的能力，失去区分严重过错和无心之失的能力。

Justine had 170 Twitter followers, and soto make it work, she had to be fictionalized. Word got around that she was thedaughter the mining billionaire Desmond Sacco. [Let us not be fooled by#JustineSacco her father is a SA mining billionaire. She's not sorry. Andneither is her father.] I thought that was true about Justine, until I met herat a bar, and I asked her about her billionaire father, and she said, "Myfather sells carpets."

贾丝婷的推特粉丝只有170名，因此，想让大家点赞，她得编个精彩的故事。有传言说她是矿业大亨德斯蒙德·萨科的女儿。[别让#贾丝婷·萨科给耍了，她老爸是SA矿业的亿万富翁。她不会后悔。她老爸也不会.]我也以为贾丝婷真是富家女。直到我在酒吧同她见面，问她富翁爸爸的事儿，她说：“我爸是卖地毯的。”

And I think back on the early days ofTwitter, when people would admit shameful secrets about themselves, and otherpeople would say, "Oh my God, I'm exactly the same." These days, thehunt is on for people's shameful secrets. You can lead a good, ethical life,but some bad phraseology in a Tweet can overwhelm it all, become a clue to your secret inner evil.

我回想起推特刚上线的时候，那时人们还会随意爆一些自己的丑事，其他人就会说，“天啊，我跟你一样。”现在呢，人人都在抓别人的丑事。你本来生活无忧无虑，但若在推文中说错了只言片语，一切就都完了，人们恨不得将你打入十八层地狱。

Maybe there's two types of people in theworld: those people who favor humans over ideology, and those people who favorideology over humans. I favor humans over ideology, but right now, theideologues are winning, and they're creating a stage for constant artificialhigh dramas where everybody's either a magnificent hero or a sickening villain,even though we know that's not true about our fellow humans. 

也许这世界有两种人：一种人相信人性高于意识形态，一种人相信意识形态高于人性。我属于前者，但眼下，后者正占据上风，这些人正在搭建一个舞台，不停上演一出大戏，戏里的人不是威猛英雄，就是猥琐坏人，即使大家都明白其实人不是这样的。

What's true is that we are clever and stupid; what's true is that we're grey areas. The greatthing about social media was how it gave a voice to voiceless people, but we'renow creating a surveillance society, where the smartest way to survive is to goback to being voiceless.

真实的现实是我们既聪明又愚蠢：真实的现实是我们都处于灰色地带。社交媒体的好处是它能为无处发声的人提供一个发言的平台，而现在呢，我们搞出了个间谍社会，要想生存就得噤若寒蝉。

Let's not do that.Thank you.(Applause)

让我们改变这种局面吧。谢谢大家。（掌声)

Bruno Giussani: Thank you, Jon.

Jon Ronson: Thanks, Bruno.

布鲁诺·吉萨尼:谢谢你，乔恩。

乔恩·朗森：谢谢你，布鲁诺。

BG: Don't go away. What strikes me aboutJustine's story is also the fact that if you Google her name today, this storycovers the first 100 pages of Google results -- there is nothing else abouther. In your book, you mention another story of another victim who actually gottaken on by a reputation management firm, and by creating blogs and postingnice, innocuous stories about her love for cats and holidays and stuff, managedto get the story off the first couple pages of Google results, but it didn'tlast long. A couple of weeks later, they started creeping back up to the topresult. Is this a totally lost battle?

BG：请先别走。贾丝婷的故事最触动我的是你如今若在谷歌去搜她的名字，搜索结果的开头100页都是说她这个故事的——没有任何其他关于她的信息。你的书还提到了另一个故事，一名受害者找到了一家名誉管理公司，这家公司帮她打造博文，上传了很多暖心的文章，关于她如何爱猫，如何度假等等，成功地把原来的故事挤出了谷歌搜索结果的前几页，不过好景不长。几星期后，旧故事又重新回到了搜索结果前列。这是不是意味着我们彻底没戏了？

Jon Ronson: You know, I think the very bestthing we can do, if you see a kind of unfair or an ambiguous shaming, is tospeak up, because I think the worst thing that happened to Justine was thatnobody supported her -- like, everyone was against her, and that is profoundlytraumatizing, to be told by tens of thousands of people that you need to getout. But if a shaming happens and there's a babble of voices, like in ademocracy, where people are discussing it, I think that's much less damaging.So I think that's the way forward, but it's hard, because if you do stand up forsomebody, it's incredibly unpleasant.

JR:我认为，我们现在能做的，就是一旦发现有人在信口开河地乱喷，就应该大声指出来，因为我认为对贾丝婷来说最不幸的是没有人为她说话——似乎每个人都跟她对着干，这是最让人寒心的，成千上万的人让你滚出去。如果语言攻击发生时，有不同的声音在表达不同的观点，就像民主似的，人人都能发言讨论，这样的话，杀伤力会小很多。我们应该往这个方向努力，当然这很难，因为你一旦站出来为某人说话，下场可能会非常惨。

BG: So let's talk about your experience,because you stood up by writing this book. By the way, it's mandatory readingfor everybody, okay? You stood up because the book actually puts the spotlighton shamers. And I assume you didn't only have friendly reactions on Twitter.

BG:那我们说说你的经验。你挺身而出，还写了这本书。顺便说一句，大家都去读读这本书，好吗？为什么说你挺身而出，因为你将聚光灯打在了那些喷子身上。我觉得你在推特上没少挨骂吧。

JR: It didn't go down that well with somepeople. (Laughter) I mean, you don't want to just concentrate -- because lotsof people understood, and were really nice about the book. But yeah, for 30years I've been writing stories about abuses of power, and when I say thepowerful people over there in the military, or in the pharmaceutical industry,everybody applauds me. As soon as I say, "We are the powerful peopleabusing our power now," I get people saying, "Well you must be a racisttoo."

JR:有些人确实不怎么喜欢我。(笑声)我是说，你不想仅仅关注——很多人都能明白，都很接受这本书。过去30年来我一直在写关于滥用职权的报道，当我曝光军队里位高权重之人，或者医药行业里只手遮天之人，人人都鼓掌叫好。直到我说：“你我也是有权之人，我们也在滥用权力”时，有人就说：“你肯定也是个种族主义者。”

BG: So the other night -- yesterday -- wewere at dinner, and there were two discussions going on. On one side you weretalking with people around the table -- and that was a nice, constructivediscussion. On the other, every time you turned to your phone, there is thisdeluge of insults.

BG:昨晚我们一起吃饭时，有两个讨论在同时进行。一个发生在你和同桌其他人之间——这个讨论气氛良好、很有建设性。另一个讨论发生在你的手机里，满眼污言秽语。

JR: Yeah. This happened last night. We hadlike a TED dinner last night. We were chatting and it was lovely and nice, andI decided to check Twitter. Somebody said, "You are a whitesupremacist." And then I went back and had a nice conversation withsomebody, and then I went back to Twitter, somebody said my very existence madethe world a worse place. My friend Adam Curtis says that maybe the Internet islike a John Carpenter movie from the 1980s, when eventually everyone will startscreaming at each other and shooting each other, and then eventually everybodywould flee to somewhere safer, and I'm starting to think of that as a reallynice option.

JR：没错。这事儿发生在昨晚的TED晚宴上，我们在聊天，气氛融洽，然后我就去查看推特。有人说：“你是个白人至上者."然后我回到餐桌，和某人愉快地交谈了一会儿。再次打开推特，又有人说我的存在让这个世界变得更糟糕了。我朋友亚当·柯蒂斯说也许网络就像80年代约翰·卡彭特的电影，最终人人都声嘶力竭地开始对骂，掏出枪来开始对射，直到最后人人都逃去一个更安全的地方。我在想那的确是一个不错的选择。

BG: Jon, thank you. JR: Thank you, Bruno.(Applause)

BG:乔恩，谢谢你。JR:谢谢你，布鲁诺。(掌声)

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