他是牛津教授，享誉世界的佛学家，却说，我不在乎自己是不是“佛教徒”…（令类专访019，中英对照）
理察德贡布里：西方最负盛名的梵文、巴利文学者，也是公认的最有影响力的南传佛教研究专家之一
Richard Gombrich, is known as the most prestigious Pali scholar in the West, an eminent Sanskritist, and one of the most influential experts in the study of Southern Buddhism.
我从未想过，会用英文进行一场关于佛学的采访；更从未想过，在世界的另一端会有一位鲜少踏上亚洲的土地， 却对佛教的理解比许多自诩为佛教徒的人还要深刻的学者。
I never thought that I would conduct an English interview on Buddhism; I also never thought that, at the other end of the world, there is a scholar who rarely sets foot on the land of Asia, but possesses a much more profound understanding on Buddhism than many self-proclaimed Buddhists.
第一次知道在牛津大学任教四十余年的，理察德贡布里教授，是在北京大学举办的“公共智慧与社会发展”阳光论坛上(主办方：北京正心慈善基金会）。
I first met Professor Richard Gombrich, who had been teaching in the University of Oxford for more than forty years,at the "public Wisdom and Social Development" forum held at Peking University.
那次，已78岁高龄的他， 不远万里， 从伦敦飞到北京。
He was 78 years old at that time but still traveled to China from London regardless of the hardness of the long trip and jetlag.
我一直难以忘怀一个细节：
演讲前，他从座位上站起， 向与会大众鞠躬敬礼，身体力行恭敬一切众生。
I would never forget such a detail:
Before the speech, he stood up from his seat, bowed to the general public to demostrate his respect for everyone.
“我将自己绝大部分的生命都奉献给了佛学研究。这是我第一次来北大分享我的佛学观，是我一生中最荣幸的时刻，也是在我余下的生命中，难以忘怀的一刻。”
他以精湛的佛学见地，纯澈的赤子之心，感染了无数人。
"I have been dedicating most of my life to Buddhist studies. This is my first chance to share my personal understanding of Buddhism at Peking University. This is the most honored moment in my life and would be the unforgettable moment in my remaining life."
His profounded thoughts on Buddhism, and his pure human kindness deeply touched the audience.
他1937年出生于伦敦，母亲来自中欧的著名音乐世家。
He was born in London in 1937, into a musical family from Central Europe.
他与佛教的渊源可以追朔到上世纪五十年代。
His involvement with Buddhism could be traced back to the fifties of the last century.
那时他还是一个血气方刚的小伙子，经常到父亲的一个朋友家做客。
那家的女主人，是德国人，佛教徒， 两个孩子在她的熏陶下，也信仰了佛教。 而他， 便从这一家人身上初步感知了佛教。
At that time he was doing compulsory British military service in Germany, and often visited one of his father's friends, whose wife had converted to Buddhism and was bringing up her two children as Buddhists as well. That's the earliest experience for young Richard Gombrich to meet Buddhists and attend some of their meetings.
他的父亲是历史学家，喜欢中国文化， 有时， 他会翻翻父亲那些讲着神秘东方智慧的书， 其中有一本叫Teachings of the Compassionate Buddha. （佛陀的慈悲教育），令他看后印象深刻。
His father was a historian, liked Chinese culture, and sometimes he would read his father's books about oriental wisdom, one of which, called Teachings of the Compassionate Buddha, much impressed him.
从那以后，他与佛教结下了不解之缘。 到2004年退休时，他已在牛津大学执教40余年，毕生精力奉献给了佛教与巴利文研究。 (巴利文，佛教上部座经文原文语言）
Since then, he has forged a bond with Buddhism. When he retired in 2004, he had been teaching at Oxford for more than 40 years and Professor of Sanskrit for 28 years.
He devoted his life to Buddhism and Pali. (Pali, the language of Theravada Buddhist scripture);
与贡布里教授的采访，是我所经历的，非常特殊的一次。 他鲜少提及个人经历， “佛陀的见地， 比我个人有趣1000倍！“
The interview with Professor Gombrich is very special one that I have ever experienced. He rarely mentioned his personal experience, "Buddha's insights are 1000 times more interesting than mine!"
而他的见地，无处不让我想到网上流传的一首诗——当我说我是佛教徒时。
His expression reminded me of a poem widely spreaded online - When I Said That I Was A Buddhist.
正因此，这篇文， 我尝试用一种不同的形式来叙述， 用他的话， 对比那首诗（有改动），来映照我们的自心。
For this reason, I have tried to narrate his words in a different way in contrast with that poem, to reflect our true heart.
3月18日，悉尼-伦敦
越洋电话里， 我问出了盘旋在心中已久的问题：
“我看到的一份采访中说，您并非佛教徒， 那是什么力量使得您将生命大半部分光阴都贡献给了佛教呢？”
18th of March, Sydney- London
Over the international call, I asked the question which is always on my mind.
“from an article about you, I know you are not a Buddhist, so what made you dedicate so much time to Buddhism research？”
他和蔼地笑了：“我不认为我是佛教徒，也不认为我不是， 事实上，我们也不必给所有人都贴上ID（身份标签）， 一个人，是不是形式上的佛教徒不重要， 重要的是， 他是不是真的理解了佛陀那无比灿烂的、充满着力量、满载着慈悲的智慧。”
He smiled gently: “I don’t think I’m a Buddhist, but actually, we don’t need to label everyone with an ID. It is not important whether a person looks like a Buddhist. The most important thing is whether or not he/she can truly understand the Buddha’s enormous brilliant wisdom which is full of strength, kindness and compassion.
他的回答让我很惭愧， 当我还在在意宗教信仰的标签时， 一个几乎把毕生精力奉献给佛学研究的人，却希望人们关注的是佛陀的智慧。
His answer made me ashamed. When I still care for the label of religious belief, a person who dedicates almost his life to Buddhist research, only hopes that people care for the Buddha’s wisdom.
Notes:
当我说我是佛教徒时
不是说我比别人更纯洁善良
而是我有太多无明烦恼需要去除
我需要佛陀的智慧
When I say I’m aBuddhist.
It doesn’t mean I’m purer and nicer than others.
But means I have too much ignorance and worries to remove
I need Buddhas' wisdom
02
“佛陀的见地，给您的人生带来了什么样的启发？”
What kind of enlightenment does Buddha’s insight bring to your life?
“我更愿意用‘学到’这个词，我从佛陀的见地中学到了什么？
I don’t use the word enlightenment. I would rather use the word as“Learn from Buddha”, What I have learnt from Buddha?
一个世界闻名的学者，却在字斟句酌间，让人无处不感受到他的谦卑与严谨。
A world-famous scholar made me feel his humility in his every carefully chosen word and sentence.
Notes
当我说我是佛教徒时
不是说我比别人更具足智慧
而是我被太多的傲慢包裹
我需要用谦卑来体味更浩瀚的世界
When I say I’m a Buddhist,
It doesn’t mean Ihave more wisdom than others.
But means I have been occupied by more arrogance
I need be more humble to have a wider horizon
03
“我人生很多重要的东西，都是从佛陀那里学来的：
他告诉我，众生平等， 告诉我，地位不同，性别各异的人们， 内心深处， 都有一般无二的智慧与能力；"
“I have learned so many important things from Buddha: He told me that everyone in the world is equal. Though different in gender and rank, in the depth of ourhearts, we are all the same in wisdom and capability.”
Notes:
当我说我是佛教徒
并不是因为我比别人好或坏
而是我了解到众生的平等无二
When I say I’m aBuddhist,
not because I ambetter or worse than others,
but because I understand everyone is equal ,no one inferior.
04
他告诉我， 当别人用暴力，或者不友善的方式对待你，保持内心的慈悲平和，以智慧应对，永远比在嗔恨中反击更有效；
“He tells me when others treat you in a violent or unfriendly way, try to retain peace in mind, show your compassion and respond with wisdom, which always turns out to be more effective than enmity and hatred;”
Notes:
当我说我是佛教徒
因为我只能爱自己所爱的人
而佛陀却能爱自己所恨的人,
并使他们具足智慧与慈悲
所以我选择学佛！
When I say I’m aBuddhist,
For I only love those to my taste,
But Buddha loves even people he hates
turning them into ones full of wisdom and compassion
That’s why I choose to follow Buddha’s teaching!
05
他还告诉我，财富不能使你快乐、地位不能使你快乐。 就像我父亲所说：“金钱，是这世上最乏味的话题。” 摆脱了追逐名利的欲望， 我们的心将无限趋近于自在与智慧。“
“He also teaches me
Wealth does not make you happy,
Neither does power.
Like my father once said to me,
“Money is the most boring topic in theworld”
Lift the heart of the desire to pursue fame and fortune,
We may come closer to our inner peace and inherent wisdom.”
Notes:
当我说我是佛教徒
不是为了从此求财得财
而是为了了断自己对一切欲望的执着
When I say I’m a Buddhist
Not with the goal of getting what’s in my interest.
But for terminating my personal clinging to all worldly desires.
06
佛陀还让我懂得了一切只是因缘和合， 比如今天我们的通话，要有电话被发明的因，要有你能讲英语的因，才能叫因缘具足。 而一切和合而成的事物，是一定会因因缘的改变，这就是“无常“，所谓缘起性空。这也让我们对一切，不必执着。“
Buddha helps me understand everything exists as a result of the union of causes and conditions. Take our talk for example, someone inventing the phone and you speaking English are the basic conditions for it to happen. So, we can say we have sufficient conditions to make this talk possible. And everything is bound to come into existence when the union of causes and conditions happens. This is ever-changing nature of things,the so-called coming from nothing and leading to nothing. Just because of this essential nature of the world, we won’t hold on stubbornly to anything in the world.
Notes:
当我说我是佛教徒
不是为了人生一帆风顺
而是为了坦然接受无常
在任何残酷的境遇下
从容如君王
When I say I am a Buddhist
Not because I pursue a smoothy life
But for the calm acceptance of impermanence
In any cruel circumstance
Be relaxed and confident like a king.
07
另外，还有非常重要的一点。 佛教中“评判“一件事情的善与恶，重点看作事人的发心。然而，光有发心是远远不够的。我们真的需要学会观察因缘，理解他人，才能生发出解决事情的智慧。
Besides, there is another key point. To determine whether a matter is good or evil, one should attach values to the motivation. However, motivation itself is not enough . It is imperative for us to learn to observe the context, meaning causes and conditions, to make an effort to understand others so that we can attain the wisdom to solve the problem.
Notes
当我说我是佛教徒时
不是说以爱的发心
绑架他人
而是为了用周到的智慧
在随顺众生中自利利他
When I say I am a Buddhist
I do not mean to restrain others
With the motivation of love
Rather it is the good use of wisdom
To benefit oneself and others while being sympathetic to all sentient beings.
08
“有人说，佛教是快乐的艺术，您怎么看？“
“Someone said, Buddhism is the art ofhappiness. What is your opinion?”
“我不太认同这种说法。 佛教，不是让我们把人生创造成一场快乐的PARTY， 第二天酒醒后，发现是大梦一场。
“I don’t agree with the statement. Buddhism doesn’t meant to make life into a happy party to hang over and wake up the next morning…
快乐总是与某种目标相连的，通常， 当我们收入达到了某个水平， 当我们的子女都健康无忧， 我们才具备快乐的条件。
Happiness is associated with an aspiration.Normally, the conditions associated with being happy are that of a certain income level or when our children are healthy and carefree.
而这种快乐是会随着因缘的变化的，本质上，它是虚幻而脆弱的。
But this kind of happiness is transient and changes with circumstances.
人生的本质是充满痛苦的，我们不得不面对，包括自己在内的所有亲爱的人的死亡。
In nature, it is illusory and fragile. The nature of life is full of bitterness.We have to face death – be it of all ourloved ones and our self.
而佛教的意义，不是把我们指向俗世的快乐，也不是告诉我们一切都不存在， 它为我们指出的是‘空’与‘有’间的中道， 带着不黏着一切事物表相的心，走在这条道上，就能得到使我们获得自在的智慧。“
But the significance of Buddhism is not in directing us toward secular happiness. Neither is it in telling us that all are transient and have no inherent existence.
It points us to the Way between “emptiness”and “existence,” the middle way,detached from all appearances. It is in Walking this Path that we attain the wisdom for freedom.
Notes 8
当我说我是佛教徒时
并不是因为我要逃避人世、追求虚无
而是深知日常生活处处是道场
活在当下就是在修行
When I say I am a Buddhist
Not because I want to escape from the world and pursue the nothingness
knowing everyday life is within Dharma field
To live in the present is to practice
当我说我是佛教徒时
我的生命并非从此不再遭遇挫折
但是有了佛法相伴
挫折一一转化成助我成长的因缘
When I say I am Buddhist
It does not mean that mylife will no longer experience setbacks
But with the Dharma
Setbacks are transformed into a cause for my growth
当我说我是佛教徒时
我心中充满无尽的感恩
单单想到今生有缘生而为人、具备修行的能力
又有机会遇善知识、得以听闻佛法
就深心感动因缘不可思议
When I say I am a Buddhism
My heart is filled with endless gratitude
Just thinking I was born as a human and has the practice ability this life Also the opportunity to meet good and wise advisors, therefore hearing the Budda's ideas
This unbelievable karma deeply moved me
当我说我是佛教徒
并不是因为外在有一个神
而是我发现了我本具的自心本性
When I say I am a Buddhism
Not because there is a God
But I found the nature of my own heart.
短短半个小时的采访，让我明澈映照了自心的虚伪。
Just half an hour of interviews clearly reflected the hypocrisy part of my heart.
而八十高龄的他，几乎把几乎全部薪水、精力都投入到了他发起的牛津佛学研究中心， 那种春蚕到死丝方尽的赤子情怀，令我感动。
As an eighty-year-old professor and Buddhist, he devotes almost all of his retirement salaries and energy into the Oxford Centrefor Buddhist Studies he launched. His pure spirit, just as silkworm’s keeping work to death while last silk ended, deeply touched me.
他的父亲约瑟夫贡布里是著名的历史学家，其著作被翻译成中文，迄今仍是许多大学的教材。
Professor's father Sir Ernst Hans Josef Gombrich, was a very famous historian. His books， translated into Chinese, are textbooks in many major China universities today.
而他成立的牛津佛学中心的网站（www.ocbs.org)，为全世界佛学研究者提供了丰富的学术资源，他还为中国学生专门设计了巴利文课程与教材。
Professor Gombrich founded Oxford Center for Buddhist Studies, which is a Recognized Independent Centre of Oxford University ("OCBS"). Since then,professor contributed his time and his earnings for this center, without any compensations. OCBS's website: www. ocbs.org is a rich resource for worldwide Buddhistscholars. Professor Gombrich has also designed a Pali course for Chinese students and wrote a text book "Pali Course Book" for Chinesestudents, which is being translated into Chinese.
“我已离死亡很近。“他音声里的豁达， 和为传播佛学文化甘愿奉献余生所有岁月的慈悲，又令我震撼。
“I’m already close to death“ ,The open-minded sound of his voice and his compassion shocked me again since he promised to contribute his remaining days to spreading Buddhist culture.
他用精辟的佛学见地、赫赫声明下的谦卑、鞠躬尽瘁的付出，向我们诠释了一个真正学佛者的情怀。
His incisive Buddhist insight, humility despite his good reputation and dedicated efforts interpreted and illustrated for us his spirit as a true Buddhist.
文：青草令
翻译：Sarah 树大参天 王红 陆真钦 宁静致远
校对：YOLANDA YU
统筹：猪开山
智慧之约
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