酷 | 刘晓明舌战BBC主播

Introduction

On June 12, 2019, H.E. Ambassador Liu Xiaoming gave an exclusive live interview to BBC Newsnight hosted by Mark Urban. Ambassador Liu talked about China's position on issues relating to Hong Kong, Xinjiang and Huawei, and answered questions. The transcript is as follows:

2019年6月12日，中国驻英国大使刘晓明接受英国广播公司（BBC）《新闻之夜》栏目主持人马克·厄本直播专访，就涉香港、新疆、华为等问题阐述中国立场，回答提问。专访实录如下：

Urban: We are joined by Ambassador Liu Xiaoming, who's been the Chinese Ambassador to UK since 2009. Quite a period! Ambassador, let's start with the Joint Declaration. That treaty. Is China still committed to upholding it?

香港问题

主持人：今天来到我们演播室的是2009年起即担任中国驻英国大使的刘晓明。刘大使，我们先谈谈《中英联合声明》，中国是否依然承诺遵守这个条约？

Ambassador: We are upholding the principle of one country, two systems. This promise has been made not only to Britain, but to the world, to the Chinese people, including those in Hong Kong. The Joint Declaration has completed its mission after Hong Kong's handover. And now, I think the "one country two systems" has been very successful in Hong Kong.

刘大使：中国在香港实行“一国两制”，这不仅是对英国的承诺，也是对世界的承诺，对包括香港在内的全体中国人民的承诺。香港回归后，《中英联合声明》就完成了它的使命。“一国两制”在香港的实践非常成功。

Urban: You say it has completed its mission, I want to put to you something your foreign ministry spokesman said two years ago, that the Declaration no longer has realistic meaning, it is purely an historic document.

主持人：你说《联合声明》完成了它的使命，而两年前中国外交部发言人称，《联合声明》已经不具有现实意义了，它是一个历史文件。

Ambassador: It is an historic document. It completed its mission.

刘大使：它是一个历史文件，已经完成了其使命。

Urban: So it's irrelevant?

主持人：它与今天已经无关了吗？

Ambassador: It's relevant in that it sets a good example for the international community to settle a dispute between nations by peaceful means, so it's still a shining, successful example for people to follow. But that Declaration gives British Government no sovereignty, no right, no legitimacy to interfere into the internal affairs of Hong Kong.

刘大使：《联合声明》今天的作用是为国际社会提供了国家之间通过和平方式解决争端的一个典范，国际社会仍可以参照这个成功模式。但《联合声明》没有使英国政府对香港拥有任何权力，无主权、无治权、无干涉内政的权力。

Urban: No sovereignty that is clear. That ended in 1997, but still an interest and a feeling on the part of hundreds of thousands of people in Hong Kong that Britain has a duty to protect their rights, under the terms of that promise.

主持人：英国对香港的主权1997年就结束了，这是明确的。但是香港成千上万的民众依然认为英国根据《联合声明》有责任捍卫他们的权利。

Ambassador: The British government has a duty to protect your own citizens but not the people of Hong Kong. The citizens of Hong Kong are, you know, they are part of China now, Hong Kong, and according to basic law, Hong Kong people will run their own affairs and they are entitled to implementing their social system different from the mainland. But it has nothing to do with the British government.

刘大使：英国政府有义务保护自己的公民，但并没有保护香港的义务，香港是中国的一部分，根据《基本法》，香港人民管理自己的事务，他们有权保持与大陆不一样的社会制度。但这与英国无关。

Urban: I am sure you can see, putting the British Government to one side now, just the feeling of the people in Hong Kong, hundreds of thousands, some say 10% of the entire population have come out on the streets, a nerve has been touched that Beijing is not respecting their right to a separate system...

主持人:姑且不说英国政府。你可以看看香港民意，数以万计的香港人，有人说香港人口的十分之一，他们走上街头，他们认为北京不尊重他们选择体制的权利。

Ambassador: This is not correct. The whole story has been distorted. This case is about rectifying the deficiencies, plugging the loopholes of the existing legal system.

刘大使:这是错误的，整个事件被歪曲了，香港修订条例是为了完善法律，堵塞现行法律体系的漏洞。

Urban: Who is distorting this?

主持人：是谁在歪曲事实？

Ambassador: The media, including BBC, I think. You portrayed the story as the Hong Kong government making this amendment at the instruction of the Central Government. As a matter of fact, the Central Government gave no instruction, no order about making amendment. This amendment was initiated by the Hong Kong government. It is prompted by a murder case happened in Taiwan and this...

刘大使：一些媒体，我认为，包括BBC。BBC把事件曲解成香港政府修例是受中央政府指使的。事实上，中央从未指示香港修例，此次修例是香港政府自己发起的，起因是一起发生在台湾的凶杀案。

Urban: Sorry. Excuse me, would you advice the Hong Kong government then to drop it, given how controversial…

主持人：对不起，鉴于争议很大，你是否建议香港政府放弃修例？

Ambassador: Why should we ask them to drop?

刘大使：我们为什么要要求香港政府放弃修例呢？

Urban: You can see what people, even the legislators, say. One man said "you are beating people out of Hong Kong" to the police. That is the scene we are seeing in the territory now as a result of this ...

主持人：你也看到，刚才节目中甚至有立法会成员说，警察把市民打得要离开香港。

Ambassador: But you have to remember that at the very beginning it has been a peaceful demonstration, but it has become ugly afterwards. A policeman was beaten, and the police had to defend themselves. They had to put the order in place, so you can't blame the policemen. I think there are always the forces inside and outside Hong Kong that try to take advantage of things, to stir up trouble. Let me come back to the...

刘大使：你应该记得，开始时是和平游行，但后来变得很恶劣，袭击警察，警察也要自卫，警方必须维持秩序，你不能责备警察。我认为，香港内部和外部的一些势力在利用此事来挑起事端。

Urban: But this is a domestic, grass roots movement of people in Hong Kong.

主持人：但这是香港草根民众自发的运动。

Ambassador: But, you know, it has been exaggerated to one million. As a matter of fact, according to police count, it is about 200,000 people. But you ignore 800,000 people who sign up to support the amendment. This silent majority has not been fully reported in this country by the BBC.

刘大使：事实上，数字被夸大了，警方的估计大约有20万人。而且你们忽视了80万人签名支持修例。在英国，BBC并未报道那些支持修例的沉默大多数。

Urban: Well, you are making the case now.

主持人：你说的有道理。

Ambassador: And also the Hong Kong government invited the Hong Kong public for suggestion, opinion, and they received 4,500 replies, 3,000 supported the amendment and only 1,500 oppose the amendment.

刘大使：香港政府就修例征求了民众的意见和建议，收到的4500份反馈中，3000支持修例，只有1500反对。

新疆问题

Urban: I want to move onto one or two of my other issues. What effect do you think it has on people in Hong Kong when they see the treatment of Uighurs in Xinjiang. An estimated one million people, Muslims minorities…

主持人：我们再谈一两个其他问题。中国对待新疆维族穆斯林少数民族的方式，对香港人民会产生什么影响？估计有成千上万的穆斯林受到不公正待遇。

Ambassador: Again you are exaggerating. I don't know where you get this one million people.

刘大使：你又在夸大其词，不知你哪来的成千上万。

Urban: It is a UN estimate.

主持人：这是联合国的报告。

Ambassador: I don't think the UN has any report on this. There are education and training centres to help people who have been brainwashed by extremists to return to society, to earn their living, to train them on skills, language and the knowledge of the law, so they can protect their own interests.

刘大使：联合国从来没有这样的报告。新疆为了帮助受极端思想蛊惑的群众回归社会，获得谋生技能，设立了职业技能教育培训中心，提供职业技能和语言技能培训，还提供法律知识教育，帮助学员维护自己的权益。

Urban: Can we have access, can we see what is going on?

主持人：我们能去中心看看吗？能看看里面到底什么情况吗？

Ambassador: Of course, we invited journalists and diplomats to visit.

刘大使：当然可以，我们邀请了记者和外交官去参访。

Urban: But we are hearing reports that what happens in there is an assault on their Muslim faith.

主持人：但是还有报道说那里面的穆斯林信仰得不到尊重，不允许他们祷告，还说他们的信仰落后，等等。

Ambassador: That is completely wrong. These are all distortions, it is all made up, fake news, I would say. We respect people to have their freedom of religion. People are entitled to have their religion. And the important thing is, you are missing the big picture. The reason for these centres is to educate those young people who have been intoxicated by extremist ideas. And ever since these measures, there have been no extremist violent incidents in Xinjiang for the past three years, which means these measures have been successful.

刘大使：这是一派胡言，完全是歪曲捏造，是假新闻。中国尊重公民的信仰自由，人民有信仰宗教的权利。关键是要看大局，教培中心设立的初衷是教育年轻人，清除极端主义流毒。新疆采取相关措施以来，已经连续三年没有发生极端主义事件，这正说明相关措施是成功的。

Urban: that they are prevented from praying, they are told that as a backward religion. I think anyone might understand why you want to prevent terrorist acts or have de-radicalisation, I think that is because you might have in common with many other governments and societies around the world, but what we hear persistent reports of is a very large number of people, up to a million, involved in this re-education process which sounds frankly sinister. What would your estimate be?

主持人：我认为任何人都能理解中国防范恐怖主义和去极端化的初衷，在这一点上中国与世界上其他政府和社会有着共同之处。但是仍不断有报告称，教培中心规模巨大，人数非常多。你估计有多少人？

Ambassador: I don't know where you get this number, one million. It is difficult to give a number because there are those going in, going out. The number changes from time to time, but the important thing to focus on here is the purpose of the centre. It is not, you know, to round up people. The purpose is to help these young people to have a better life after education and training.

刘大使：教培中心的学员有进有出，具体人数随时变化，很难统计，关键是要认识到中心设立的目的。设立中心不是为了拘押，而是为了帮助年轻人通过接受教育和培训过上更好的生活。

Urban: You are saying the purpose is not to eradicate the religion among these people, it is not the aim of this exercise?

主持人：目的不是为了消灭宗教？

Ambassador: Not at all.

刘大使：绝对不是。

华为问题

Urban: Huawei. It's a big subject, I am sure, for you in your post in London. It's something you care a lot about. The British Government has been in a position where it seems to make an interim decision or advice to use some elements of Huawei's technology in its 5G network. Now as you know, quite a lot of pressure from the United States not to do so at all. Will there be consequences, do you think, from the Chinese point of view, if Britain decides not to use it at all?

主持人：华为问题，我想这也是你在英国常驻期间非常关心的问题。英国政府暂时决定在5G网络建设中使用部分华为设备。你也知道，美国对此施加了巨大的压力，要求不使用华为的任何设备。从中方的立场看，如果英国决定不使用华为设备，会面临什么样的后果？

Ambassador: First of all, I would say Huawei is a good company. It is a leader in 5G. They are here for win-win cooperation with their British counterparts. And they contribute tremendously not only to telecom industry in this country, but they employ 7000 people. In terms of win-win collaboration, if the UK collaborates with Huawei, there will be promising future for both sides.

刘大使：首先，我认为华为是一家好企业，是5G技术领军者。华为与英国企业开展互利合作，不仅对英国的电信业做出了巨大贡献，而且雇佣了7000多名英籍员工。从双赢角度来看，英国选择与华为合作，前景十分光明。

Urban: They have got advanced technology, no one doubts about it. But what if the UK chooses not to?

主持人：华为的技术非常先进，没有人对此抱有怀疑。但如果英国不选择使用华为会有什么后果呢？

Ambassador: I think it would send a very bad message not only to Huawei but also to Chinese businesses. Will the UK remain open? Will the UK still be a business friendly environment for Chinese companies? It would send a very bad signal.

刘大使：我认为这将向华为和其他中国企业释放一个非常糟糕的信号。如果这样，英国还能保持开放吗？英国还能为中国企业提供友善的营商环境吗？这将是非常负面的信号。

Urban: Negative effects on trade?

主持人：对贸易会产生消极影响吗？

Ambassador: Yes, bad. Not just on trade but also on investment. For the past 5 years, the investment from China exceeded the total investment in the previous 30 years. So, Chinese investments are booming in this country. In the last year it increased by 14%, but if you shut the door for Huawei, it will send a very bad and negative message to other Chinese businesses.

刘大使：是的，不仅对贸易，对投资也会造成不好的影响。过去5年，中国对英投资数量超过了此前30年对英投资的总量。中国对英国的投资正在快速增长，去年增长了14%。如果英国对华为关门，必将向其他中国企业释放非常糟糕和负面的信息。

Urban: On that note, Ambassador, thank you very much for joining us.

主持人：好的，大使，非常感谢你接受今天的专访！

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