独家专访|对话米沙·纳米诺夫斯基
▲米沙·纳米诺夫斯基(Misha Namirovsky)
对话者简介
米沙 Misha
著名俄罗斯裔美国籍钢琴家米沙·纳米诺夫斯基(Misha Namirovsky)享有“艺术大师”和“钢琴抒情诗人”的美誉。他的音乐造诣不仅是“俄罗斯钢琴学派”超技的最高体现,更是海因利希·涅高茨的二代传人。Namirovsky现任苏州大学国际音乐学院钢琴系教授。同时也在世界各地的音乐学院进行讲学。
勇敢的心:
“勇敢的心”为【乐迷心窍】音乐群的群主及公号创始人。
米沙 Misha:
2019.02.08 20:45
Hi everyone, thank you for the invitation. My name is Misha Namirovsky, a Russian pianist.
各位好!谢谢邀请!我是俄罗斯钢琴家米沙·纳米诺夫斯基。
勇敢的心:
Hi Misha. Welcome to our music group. Looking forward to more sharing of your performances. I wonder if you would like to share some experiences or lectures on piano playing skills in our group. That'll be much appreciated.
您好,米沙!欢迎加入我们的音乐群。期待您更多地分享您的演奏。我想知道您是否愿意在我们的团队中分享一些经验和关于钢琴演奏技巧的讲座。非常感谢。
米沙 Misha:
Of course. Glad to share any thoughts on any piano/music topic.
当然。很高兴与大家分享任何有关钢琴/音乐主题的想法。
▲Misha Namirovsky plays Schumann Symphonic Etudes Op. 13
勇敢的心:
Can we start with the Concerto for Piano No. 1 in D minor, Op. 15 by Brahms please, since you loved it so much.
我们可以从勃拉姆斯《d小调第一钢琴协奏曲》作品15号开始吗,因为您非常喜欢它。
米沙 Misha:
Sure. I think the Clifford Curzon and the Gilels recordings are my favorite.
当然可以! 我认为克利福德·柯曾和吉利尔斯的唱片是我的最爱。
▼克利福德·柯曾演奏勃拉姆斯《d小调第一钢琴协奏曲》作品15号
勇敢的心:
Great! Both your analysis of the works and some courses of lectures are precious learning materials that we need so much. Could you please let us know why Clifford Curzon and Gilels recording are your favorite? I’m listening to the piece.
太棒了!您对作品的分析和一些讲座都是我们非常需要的宝贵的学习资料。您可以告诉我们为什么克利福德·柯曾和吉利尔斯的唱片是您的最爱吗?我正在聆听这首曲子……
米沙 Misha:
2019.02.10 23:54
Just to follow up on why I love the Brahms concerto so much: it's not just a virtuosic piece, it's a grand Ballade, a magnificent life story.
我来继续讨论这个话题:为什么我如此喜爱勃拉姆斯《d小调钢琴协奏曲》。它不仅仅是一个精湛的艺术作品,也是一部伟大的叙事曲,一部宏伟的人生故事。
There are many examples of this but one of the most amazing. Look at the first notes of the piece: B flat - F - D - D - F.
有很多这方面的例子,其中一个最令人惊讶。 看看这部作品的第一个音符:B flat - F - D - D - F.
Look at the long notes only from the second movement beginning, D - A - F# - F# - A.
我们来看看第二乐章开始的几个长音符。D-A-F#-F#-A。
A hidden thematic transformation, of completely different character. And the concerto is full of these "threads". Its long one story line - a narrative. Magnificent, written when Brahms was only 20-21 years old.
这是完全不同性质的隐藏式主题转换。而此协奏曲里有不少这样的“音节”。它长长的故事情节——叙事。它很壮丽,是勃拉姆斯才20-21岁时创作的。
▼吉利尔斯演奏勃拉姆斯《d小调第一钢琴协奏曲》作品15号
勇敢的心:
Hi Misha. I'm happy hearing from you. Thanks so much.
您好,米沙!我很高兴听到您的回复。非常感谢。
米沙 Misha:
As for Gilels, he just had the most rounded connected sound, and the great feeling of tempo and timing in my opinion.
说到吉利尔斯,他拥有着最圆润的连接音,在我看来,他的节奏感和时间感都很好。
勇敢的心:
Brahms' work was not recognized at that time. When it premiered in 1859, it suffered a complete failure. What do you think of the reason why the work was not received favorably by the audience and the performers alike?
勃拉姆斯的作品当时并没有得到认可,它在1859年首演时遭到滑铁卢。您认为这部作品之所以没有受到观众和表演者青睐的原因是什么?
米沙 Misha:
Well, just comparing it to the flashiness of the Liszt concertos, Brahms was kind of considered a regressive composer compared to Liszt/Wagner.
嗯,就拿它与李斯特协奏曲的华丽相比较,与李斯特/瓦格纳相比,勃拉姆斯被认为是一位守旧的作曲家。
And I don’t think it’s that popular now, at least compared to the Rachmaninoff / Tchaikovsky / Mozart ones. It’s not as obviously effective or virtuosic. But it's a monumental piece so it has withstood the test of time.
而且我认为它现在也不那么流行了,至少与拉赫玛尼诺夫、柴可夫斯基、莫扎特的作品相比较的话。它的影响力和精湛度都没那么明显了。但这是一部具有划时代意义的作品,所以它还是经得起时间的考验的。
In China it’s not performed really that often.
在中国,它并不常被演奏。
勇敢的心:
OK I see. Now you reminded me of something. Had Brahms been somehow influenced by Wagner ?
好的,明白。您提醒我了,勃拉姆斯是否也受到了瓦格纳的某些影响呢?
米沙 Misha:
I don't think so. He was the opposite figure, musically and otherwise.
我不这么认为。他在音乐上和其他方面都是恰恰相反的人物。
He was at the end of a tree, except for people like Dvorak and strangely enough perhaps Schoenberg.
他是一棵树的末端,除了像德沃夏克这样的人,或者也许是勋伯格,那也够奇怪的。
勇敢的心:
Yes. His works were quite different from the aesthetic appeals of the Romantic Piano Concerto.
是的,他的作品与浪漫钢琴协奏曲的审美诉求截然不同。
This was of course not meant as concerto - only the 3rd movement was written as a concerto from the beginning. The first 2 movements were originally 2 piano sonata/symphony that were later adapted to be part of the concerto. That's why it’s so symphonic.
其实这曲子原本就不是协奏曲的形式 - 只有第三乐章是完全按协奏曲格式写的。 前两个乐章本来是2首与交响曲配乐的钢琴奏鸣曲,后来才被改编成协奏曲的一部分。 这就是为什么它让人感觉更像交响乐。
▲Misha Namirovsky plays Brahms Piano Concerto No. 1 in D minor, Op. 15 with the Cincinnati Symphony Orchestra, conducted by Robert Trevino (2014)
米沙与辛辛那提交响乐团合作演奏勃拉姆斯《d小调第一钢琴协奏曲》Op.15
勇敢的心:
Well. Let's go back to the first notes of the piece you mentioned. Does the B flat-F-D-D-F usually represent a sonata or a symphony? Is it the beginning of the narrative?
好。 我们回到你提到的这首曲子开头的几个音符,B flat-F-D-D-F,通常呈现的是奏鸣曲还是交响曲? 它是叙事的开始吗?
米沙 Misha:
Well, it has power. I don't think necessarily there is a more sonata or symphony theme.
嗯,这个开头很有力度。 我并不认为它比较偏向于奏鸣曲或交响乐的主题。
Clearly this one is like a big column it is not fragile. It is a very strong entrance but at the same time harmonically ambiguous (b flat major chord begins a piece in d minor).
它很明显地就像一根大圆柱,不脆弱。是一个很强大有力的开头,但同时却又有和声上的不确定性(d小调的曲子却以降B和弦来开头)。
It is this ambiguity that needs to be resolved through the piece, a menacing beginning that after many struggles will lead to a great triumph.
正是这种不确定性需要通过整首曲子来化解,一个来势汹汹的开端,在经过了无数次的奋斗挣扎之后,最终取得巨大的胜利。
勇敢的心:
The strength and ambiguity, the contrast, alternation and fluctuation of two emotions and forces, should be presented and resolved through the piece, right?
强大的力度与不确定性,两种情感和力量的对比、交替与消长,要通过这曲子来表述和化解,对吗?
米沙 Misha:
Probably more than 2 emotions but two opposing forces yes.
可能有两种以上的情绪在里头,但的确是有两股相反的力量存在。
勇敢的心:
So how did you represent and resolve them skillfully with your emotions and techniques?
那么您是以怎样的情绪和技巧巧妙地处理了这些问题呢?
米沙 Misha
I don't need to resolve. I need to interpret. Whether i do it successfully or not is up to the listener to decide. But to have a chance I need to use in the right balance all the tools available to me: musicality, technique, stylistic understanding and above all: make the story that Brahms was telling personal.
I have to relate to the story and it needs to speak to me. That will make the performance powerful for the audience even though they will not be able to say why exactly. That is my opinion of course.
我不需要化解,我只需要诠释。至于我是否成功地做到这一点则取决于听众了。为了能有成功的机会,我必须很均衡地运用我具备的手段,例如:音乐性、弹奏技巧、对风格的理解,等等。但最重要的还是:让勃拉姆斯讲的故事成为个性化的故事。这故事必须像是我亲身经历过似的,而它必须得跟我对话。这样才能使听众们感受到演奏的强大力度可是却又说不上是为什么。当然这是我的看法啦。
勇敢的心:
Excellent! May I ask which piano master or masters influenced you the most? You valued Gilels' most rounded connected sound, and great feeling of tempo and timing so much, and applied it to your performance, didn't you?
很棒!请问哪位钢琴老师对您的影响最大?吉利尔斯的连接音最圆润,极佳的节奏感和时间感,您非常看重这些并运用到自己的演奏中了,是吗?
米沙 Misha:
I am not sure if it applied. That would make the connection I spoke above less direct. There are many musicians one can learn from. My teachers such as Eliso Virsaladze and Hung Kuan Chen, played a great role of course.
我不确定是否运用到我的演奏中了。 这将使我上面谈到的联系不那么直接。 有许多音乐家可以学习。 我的老师,如Eliso Virsaladze和Hung Kuan Chen,当然他们起了重要作用。
勇敢的心:
Brahms was an excellent pianist. While he was composing this piece, he discussed it with Clara who was a gifted female pianist. Therefore, it requires considerable piano playing skills. With magnificent conception and epic generality, it reflects the surging and longing reverie. It's amazing how successfully you can play this piece! How long did it take for you to practice this piece?
勃拉姆斯是一位优秀的钢琴家,他和天才女钢琴家克拉拉相互商讨写出这首协奏曲,所以此曲要求有相当高深的钢琴弹奏技巧。它以宏伟的构思和史诗般的概括性,反映着波涛澎湃的、憧憬式的遐想。您能把此曲演奏得如此成功,令人叹服!请问您练习这首曲子用了多久的时间?
米沙 Misha:
That's quite eloquent on your part. Thank you. It took a while, I am not so fast learning but the notes are not that difficult here, compared to concertos like Rachmaninoff or even Brahms' second. But it took a while and then the interpretation had to simmer and mature as well. I don't remember exactly how long as it was a while ago
您的口才真好。 谢谢。 我花了不少时间,我学习的速度不是很快,但与拉赫玛尼诺夫甚至勃拉姆斯的第二钢琴协奏曲相比,这曲子并不那么难。 但它需要一段时间,才能把演绎酝酿成熟。 我不记得到底花了多久,因为已经有好长一段时间了。
勇敢的心:
Thank you for your compliment too. Every time when a pianist performs, he feels differently. If you were asked to play this piece again, what aspects would you like to further adjust?
也谢谢您的夸奖。钢琴家每次演奏都会有不同的感受。如果让您重新演奏这首曲目,您希望哪些方面还可以进一步加以调整吗?
米沙 Misha:
I don't want to adjust anymore, I am just happy for any chance to live through it as a performer.
我不想再调整了,我只是很高兴能有机会以演奏家的身份再经历一次这首曲子的故事。
勇敢的心:
Great ! If you were to attend a world pianist concert now, how would your repertoire look like?
如果您现在参加一场世界钢琴家演奏盛会,您会选择哪首曲目参演呢?
米沙 Misha:
You mean to listen to someone or play myself?
您的意思是聆听他人演奏还是自己演奏?
勇敢的心:
Play yourself.
自己演奏。
米沙 Misha:
Oh, there are lots of elements involved. What venue, what city, how much time I have to prepare etc... We can't just play what we want. Two pieces I did not play but really want to were Schumann Fantasy and Prokofiev 8th sonata.
哦,这涉及很多因素。 什么样的演奏厅,在哪个城市,我有多少时间可以准备,等等。我们不能任性地演奏我们想要演奏的作品。 有两部作品是我没演奏过但真的想要表演的,那就是舒曼的《幻想曲》和普罗科菲耶夫的《第八钢琴奏鸣曲》。
勇敢的心:
For the performance in China after the 11th, do you mind sharing the repertoire with us?
2月11日之后中国之行的演出,您知道将要演奏的曲目了吗?
米沙 Misha:
Well, I am very busy so not much time to learn new pieces. In Xi’an in April I will play a short fun Beethoven sonata op. 10 no. 2 and Rachmaninoff and Scriabin short pieces in first half then some Cuban dances by Lecuona and Cervantes (beautiful and not known miniatures) and Schumann symphonic etudes.
嗯,我很忙,所以没有太多时间学习新作品。四月在西安,我将在上半场演奏一首有趣的贝多芬《A大调第二钢琴奏鸣曲》作品第10号,拉赫玛尼诺夫和斯克里亚宾的短曲,然后是一些由恩纳斯托·莱库纳和塞万提斯创作的古巴舞曲(优美但不广为人知的短曲),和舒曼的交响练习曲等。
▲Misha Namirovsky plays A. Scriabin 斯克里亚宾 Piano Sonata No. 4 in F-sharp Major Op. 30
勇敢的心:
For these pieces, do you think you can recommend a couple of other versions of interpretation that you like?
这几首曲目您喜欢谁的演奏版本呢?能推荐给我们吗?
Actually, I look forward to seeing the video recording of your performance of the Schumann Fantasy and the Prokofiev 8th Sonata.
事实上我期待着能观看您演奏的舒曼的《幻想曲》和普罗科菲耶夫《第八钢琴奏鸣曲》。
米沙 Misha:
Well that will take a while haha. Explore the only large piece is the Schumann. And many great interpretations of it. Sofronitsky, Geza Anda, as well as Gilels.
好吧,那需要一段时间。哈哈。探索唯一的大作品是舒曼。以及对它的许多伟大的诠释。例如索夫罗尼茨基、安达以及吉利尔斯。
Maybe Brendel for a different type of musician.
也可听听布伦德尔。他是另一不同类型的音乐家。
勇敢的心:
Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and thoughts with me Misha. It has been a great pleasure having such a wonderful conversation with such an outstanding pianist. The members of this group would definitely learn a lot from the information you shared. May I add you to my contact list?
非常感谢您与我分享您的经验和想法!很荣幸能与您这样优秀的钢琴家进行一场精彩的对话。群里的群友一定会从您分享的信息中学到很多。我可以加您为朋友吗?
米沙 Misha:
Sure. And my pleasure. I am on the plane on the way back to China. We can chat later.
当然可以加微朋友,也是我的荣幸。我正在回中国的飞机上。我们稍后再聊。
勇敢的心:
Wish you a pleasant trip and every successful performance in China!
祝您中国之行愉快!祝您每场演出都获得圆满成功!
米沙 Misha:
Thank you.
谢谢您!
附录:米沙·纳米诺夫斯基自传
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