欧塞维奥 · 里尔 | 哈瓦那，我的挚爱

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气候变化引起的异常洪灾危及哈瓦那著名的海滨步道，马雷贡大道

露西亚 · 伊格莱西亚 · 昆茨担任采访 

Interview by Lucía Iglesias Kuntz, UNESCO

谈到哈瓦那，就不能不提欧塞维奥·里尔·斯彭格勒（Eusebio Leal Spengler）。一座城市拥有专门为它作研究的历史学家，这在世界上可谓是绝无仅有。在古巴首都建城500周年前夕，这位30多年来负责修复历史城区的哈瓦那首席历史学家带领我们游览街道和古迹，向我们展示了这座城市的伟大和动人之处……还有一些瑕疵。

When you speak of Havana, you speak of Eusebio Leal Spengler. Which other city has its own personal historian? On the eve of the 500th anniversary of the founding of the Cuban capital, the City Historian of Havana – who has been in charge of the restoration of its historic city centre for over thirty years – takes us on a journey through its streets and monuments, showing us its strength, its beauty ... and its ailments.

今年是哈瓦那建城500 周年，这座城市如今发展如何？

This year, Havana celebrates five centuries of its existence. How is the city faring?

若是站在城市的角度考虑，我认为这些瑕疵类似于人在上了年纪之后身体不可避免的小病小痛。与希腊雅典和土耳其伊斯坦布尔这样的古城相比，500年不足一提。但在美洲，除了像库斯科这样的前西班牙时期的古城、秘鲁的印加城、墨西哥的阿兹特克- 特诺奇蒂特兰，或者中美洲的玛雅古城之外，能500年屹立不倒的城市非常少见。哈瓦那兴建于16 世纪初的西班牙征服和殖民时期。多米尼加共和国的圣多明各、拉维加、圣佩德罗- 德马科里斯和圣地亚哥洛斯卡巴等城市建成后，古巴的各座城市很快也相继建立。

If I were to put myself in the city’s place, I think the ailments you have are what you feel when you’ve lived so long. Five centuries is little in comparison with ancient cities like Athens in Greece, or Istanbul in Turkey. But it’s a lot for us in our Americas – with the exception of the great pre-Hispanic cities like Cusco, the Inca city of Peru, the Aztec Tenochtitlán in Mexico, or the Mayan cities of Central America. Havana was part of the new wave that began with the Spanish conquest and colonization at the beginning of the sixteenth century. The Cuban cities were founded immediately after the cities of Santo Domingo, La Vega, San Pedro de Macorís and Santiago de los Caballeros, in the Dominican Republic. 

我相信，在这些历史悠久的城市面前，每个人都会心生敬意。而它们曾经历的每一次伤痛，也有痕迹存留至今。从60年前古巴人民奋起抵抗获得革命胜利起，这个国家就从根本上进入了新的时代，哈瓦那由此成为一种象征和符号。

I believe these cities have reached a noble antiquity, and also show the aches and pains of all the historical moments they have lived through. In our case, it is fundamentally the new era that began sixty years ago with the victory of the Revolution – the resistance of the Cuban people, of which Havana has been an emblem and a symbol.

历史城区哈瓦那旧城具有“突出的普世价值”，于1982年被列入《世界遗产名录》，到访过此地的游客都赞叹不已。但您个人认为，哈瓦那的价值在哪里？

The historic centre, Old Havana, has been inscribed on the World Heritage List since 1982, for its “outstanding universal value”, that any visitor can appreciate. But what, from your personal point of view, is the value of Havana?

它的价值非常广泛。哈瓦那旧城既有作为国家首都、国之领袖的象征意义，又有集古巴人民所有文化、知识、政治、历史和社会价值为一体的代表意义。同时，它还拥有这座岛屿上最精美、最绚丽多姿的建筑，其独特风格在卡马圭、圣地亚哥- 德古巴或特立尼达也能寻得踪迹。

The range of values is very large. There is the symbolic value – it is the capital of the nation, the country’s head. But at the same time, it is very representative of all the cultural, intellectual, political, historical and social values of the Cuban people. It is also a catalogue of the most beautiful and dazzling architecture that the island has ever produced, with features that can also be found in Camagüey, Santiago de Cuba, or Trinidad. 

具体来说，历史城区的一大特色就是受西班牙- 伊斯兰传统影响的摩尔式建筑。此外还有既内敛又奔放的巴洛克式建筑哈瓦那大教堂。这种风格更像是古巴作家阿莱霍·卡彭铁尔（Alejo Carpentier）在其著名小说《光明世纪》（又名《大教堂里的爆炸》，1962年）中生动描述的一种思想、情绪或者氛围。

The Moorish architecture, for example, which was influenced by the Hispano-Islamic tradition, is very characteristic of the historical centre. Then, there is also the timid but passionate baroque architecture of the Havana Cathedral – which is more like a state of mind, a kind of feeling or atmosphere that the Cuban writer, Alejo Carpentier, so vividly described in his great novel, El siglo de las luces (Explosion in a Cathedral), 1962.

至于城中新古典主义风格的建筑代表，则要数作为哈瓦那建立标志的建镇纪念堂。我们可以把它看成一个小尺寸的初始模型，马坦萨斯和西恩富戈斯等古巴的其他城市中有以此为原型建造的更大的纪念堂。

There is also the neoclassical city, with El Templete, the monument to the founding of Havana. It is rather a small-scale model, that has been reproduced with great originality in other Cuban cities, like Matanzas and Cienfuegos.

哈瓦那中城的建筑风格更为兼收并蓄，令人过目难忘，那里有各种滴水嘴兽雕饰、阿特拉斯雕饰，以及精巧的人物和神兽塑像。旧广场的库埃托宫和气势恢宏的埃米利奥- 百加得大楼分别颠覆性地应用了新艺术与装饰艺术理念，使得整体的建筑风格更加丰富多彩。

And then there is the eclectic city in Centro Habana that is so impressive – filled with gargoyles, Atlanteans, extraordinary figures, imaginary creatures. The Art Nouveau – the Palacio Cueto in the Plaza Vieja – and then the considerable splendour of the Art Deco – as in the Emilio Bacardí building – are almost subversively introduced there, making the architectural dialogue even more intense.

最后， 哈瓦那还有现代化的一面。维也纳建筑师理查德·诺伊特拉（Richard Neutra）的作品舒尔萨斯大楼已达到了现代艺术的顶尖水平，是第五大道住宅区最美丽的建筑之一。

Finally, there is the Havana of modernity, which reaches the height of its splendor with the work of the Viennese architect, Richard Neutra – the Casa de Schulthess, one of the most beautiful houses in the residential quarter where Quinta Avenida [Fifth Avenue] takes us.

哈瓦那是一个满载智慧和记忆的鲜活的城市。在这个生机勃勃的大都市里，不论是作为知识殿堂的大学校园，还是用以埋葬和纪念故去之人的墓场，都建造得美轮美奂。

Havana is a living city, of wisdom and of memory. In this lively metropolis, we find the acropolis of knowledge that is the beautiful university campus – and the great monumental cemetery, the necropolis, is beautiful too.

您能为我们介绍一下2019年11月纪念活动的内容吗？

Could you tell us what the November 2019 celebrations will consist of? 

市政府为纪念活动制定了内容丰富的计划，其中有一部分是我们在哈瓦那首席历史学家办公室专门为历史区域设计的。我们的目的是鼓励人们保护城市记忆，而且，我们希望在建城500周年纪念活动结束之后，哈瓦那的居民也能在日常生活中延续这个理念。投身于这项工作30多年，我必须承认，自己有时候会有种在沙漠里布道的感觉。

The city government has developed an extensive commemoration project. The plan we drew up in the Office of the City Historian of Havana, which we designed specifically for the historical zone, is harmoniously incorporated into that project. Our task is to promote the idea of preserving the memory of the city, not only when it comes to commemorating its fifth centenary, but also in everyday life. I’ve dedicated more than three decades to this, and I have to confess that sometimes it felt as though I was preaching that cause in the desert.

目前，我们已经策划了一系列活动、广播和电视节目，也出版了各种作品。在进行恢复城市纪念性标志的相关工作时，我们一直非常积极。一批包括国会大楼、阿塔雷斯堡和哈瓦那中心区域其他标志性建筑在内的重大工程现已竣工。我们不仅要纪念这座城市的建成，也要纪念它的历史和文化。

Currently, we have developed a series of events, radio and television programmes, and the publication of a number of different works. We also continue to work simultaneously on the restoration of the city’s monumental symbols – the main example of this will be the completion of major work on El Capitolio [the national Capitol building], the Castillo de Atarés and other iconic buildings in the heart of Havana. We will remember and celebrate not only the story of the act of the city’s founding, but also its history and culture.

我要强调的是，文化是哈瓦那旧城复原和修复总体计划的关键词。任何发展项目若是忽视文化，终将走向衰败。

I would like to emphasize that culture is the key word in our master plan for the rehabilitation and restoration of Old Havana. Any development project that ignores culture, leads only to decadence.

另一方面，大众也是同样重要的一个因素。我要确保这些纪念活动能激发人们的热情。如果不能打动人心，我们所做的就只不过是发表几次正式演讲、搬几块石头和印几篇文章而已。

On the other hand, the human factor is just as important. I would like to ensure that these commemorations generate a passion among the people. If they don’t touch people’s hearts, all we will have done is made a few official speeches, moved some stones and printed a few articles.

您是否认为文化遗产与日常生活密切相关，而不仅仅只是与博物馆有关？

Would you say that cultural heritage has more to do with everyday life, and is not just about museums?

毫无疑问，我认为博物馆是保存历史、记忆和文化的重要载体。对哈瓦那人民来说，我们的城市博物馆意义非凡，但它更是属于整个国家的宝贵财富。不过， 过分的“ 博物馆化”是不可取的，我希望守护一座鲜活的城市。

Of course I believe that museums are essential for history, memory and culture. The Museo de la Ciudad [City Museum] is of vital importance for the entire nation, and not just for the people of Havana. But I have also fought against museumization and defended the cause of a living city.

世界遗产城市面临的挑战之一在于很难调和旅游业（有时是大规模的旅游业）与遗产价值保护之间的矛盾。哈瓦那是否也不得不面对这样的矛盾？

One of the challenges facing World Heritage cities is the difficulty of reconciling tourism – sometimes on a massive scale – and the preservation of heritage values. Has Havana had to face these contradictions?

我们必须确保哈瓦那不会因为大批游客的到来而消失。但与此同时，我认为不应把旅游业妖魔化。它是一项必要的活动，也是一个重要的经济因素。就古巴而言，考虑到我们与外界隔绝的状况，旅游业为人民提供了与来自全世界的游客进行直接对话的机会。这是很了不起的事情。

We must ensure that Havana does not disappear under a tide of tourists. But at the same time, I believe that tourism – a necessary activity and an important economic factor – should not be demonized. In the case of Cuba, given its isolation, it is also an opportunity to initiate a direct dialogue with visitors from all around the world. That is something wonderful.

一旦修复工程结束，哈瓦那旧城的许多建筑会重新成为人们的住处。

While the rehabilitation is completed, many buildings in Old Havana still remain inhabited.

在很多情况下，一些赤贫的家庭会选择住在那些遭到严重破坏后被我们修复的建筑里。这种做法一直延续到现在。而我们有求必应，努力为几千人提供安全和有尊严的栖身之所，为青年人提供教育，为成年人提供稳定的工作。我们尝试去做好这样一项与众不同的事业，当时，它被联合国教科文组织定义为“特殊项目”。特殊并不意味着更好。我们不是要标榜自己领先于世界上的其他国家，而是要表明我们一直根据本土的经验做事。换句话说，尽管在寻找过程中遭遇了挫折和失误，但我们最终还是找到了属于自己的复原模式。

In many cases, the buildings that were in ruins, and that we have restored, were inhabited by very poor families. This is still the case for many of them. The answer has been to provide safe and dignified shelter for thousands of people, offer education for young people and create safe jobs for adults. We have tried to implement what UNESCO defined, at the time, as “a unique project”, something different. Unique does not mean better. We do not claim to have done better than other parts of the world. Rather, it was done according to our own experience. In other words, in spite of the setbacks and mistakes we suffered in the search for a rehabilitation model, we finally found it.

您还为恢复靠近哈瓦那海岸线的标志性街道马雷贡大道做了不少工作。您将它称为“哈瓦那的微笑”。

You have also put a lot of effort into restoring the Malecón, Havana’s emblematic avenue that stretches along the coastline. You have defined it as “Havana’s smile”.

我必须承认，我差一点就输掉了与海洋的战斗，一场只有手举三叉戟的海神能打赢的战斗。我始终忘不了海浪无情撞击海边矗立数百年的莫洛城堡的画面。当飓风一步步逼近时，那场景宛如但丁笔下的地狱。

I must confess that I have almost lost the battle against the sea, a battle that could only be fought by Neptune with his trident. I cannot forget the images of the devastating waves crashing against the Castillo del Morro, which has stood in front of the sea for centuries. These are Dantesque visions that are repeated at every step of a cyclone.

2019 年1月27日夜间和28日，我们遭到龙卷风的侵袭，造成数人死亡，约200人受伤。这次事件提醒我们，必须认识到气候变化是对精美绝伦的马雷贡大道的潜在威胁。这条大道永远是哈瓦那留给大海的甜美微笑，我们有义务去保护它。

The tornado that hit us recently, during the night of January 27 and 28 [2019], causing the death of several people and wounding some 200, reminds us that the time has come to understand that climate change is a hidden threat to the elegant silhouette of the Malecón, which will always be that beautiful smile that Havana gives to the sea, and that we have a duty to protect.

我们已经输掉了与海洋的战斗，但在与气候变化的战斗中，我们必须要赢。未来还有严峻挑战和新的冒险等着我们。

We have lost the battle against the sea, but we must win our fight against climate change. Great challenges and new adventures await us.

您一直都在为哈瓦那工作，难道就没有厌倦的时候吗？

Don’t you ever tire of working for Havana?

我可以肯定，是我所经历的一切指引我来到哈瓦那的。这么多年来，我的工作的确很艰苦，但我从不后悔。如果在我们所知的生命以外还有另一个生命，我的灵魂也还是会永远流连于哈瓦那。这份工作是我的挚爱，是我的激情所在，也是我面临的最大挑战。我真的不知道，为什么无论在现实还是在梦里，我总会不知不觉地又回到这里。

It’s true that everything has always led me to Havana. It’s really been many years of work, hard work. I don’t regret it. If there were another life than the one we know here on earth, my soul would wander eternally through Havana. It has been the greatest of my loves, the best of my passions, and the greatest of my challenges. I really do not know why I always mysteriously return to it, in light and silence, in life and in dreams.

作者简介：

欧塞维奥·里尔·斯彭格勒（古巴）历史学家、作家和研究员。哈瓦那城市历史学家、哈瓦那历史城区复原和修复总体计划负责人。著有《亲爱的祖国》《回到过去》《镜中光》《筑起的希望》和《诗与句》。

Cuban historian, author and researcher Eusebio Leal Spengler is the City Historian of Havana, and director of the Master Plan for the rehabilitation and restoration of its historic centre. His works include Patria amada (Beloved Homeland), Regresar en el tiempo (Back in Time), La luz sobre el espejo (The Light on the Mirror), Fundada esperanza (Founded Hope) and Poesía y palabra (Poems and Words).

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