冠察天下 | 美国调查性报道网站“灰色地带”主编谈特朗普

编者按：两天前，美国总统特朗普因国会山暴动一事被众议院弹劾。这使得特朗普成为美国有史以来首位在任内被弹劾两次的总统。就特朗普被弹劾一事，CGTN记者王冠专访了国际知名左翼网站“灰色地带”主编Max Blumenthal。Max表示，特朗普携右翼草根以令共和党的日子或一去不复返，他将被历史铭记为一位“狂妄不羁”却又成事不足的美国总统。

Editor's note: Just a few days ago, Donald Trump was impeached for 'inciting' the U.S. Capitol riot. As is known, he has become the first president in U.S. history to be impeached twice. In regard to this matter, CGTN anchor Wang Guan had an insightful talk with Max Blumenthal, editor-in-chief of Grayzone.

王冠：Max，欢迎来到CGTN。

Wang Guan: Max, welcome to CGTN.

Max Blumenthal：我很荣幸！

Max Blumenthal: Great to be here.

王冠：我们先来谈谈对特朗普的弹劾吧。他是第一个遭到两次弹劾的美国总统。我觉得更重要的问题是，他是否真的会被定罪。纽约时报、Axios和多个消息来源都指出，连米奇•麦康纳尔都可能投票对特朗普定罪这意味着其他共和党参议员可能会效仿，也意味着特朗普可能会被解职。您怎么看共和党建制派选择现在这个时候才下决心和特朗普划清界限？

Wang Guan: Let's start by talking about Trump's impeachment. The first president ever to be impeached twice. I guess the more important question is really his possible conviction, because according to New York Times and Axios and multiple sources saying that Mitch McConnell is even likely to vote to convict Trump, which means other Senate Republicans might follow suit, which that means Trump could be removed from office. What do you make of the fact that it is only now that the GOP establishment decided to move away from Trump?

Max Blumenthal: 部分原因是，长期存在的共和党内讧已经有几十年了。党内有大公司精英贵族派、乡村俱乐部派和与之相对立的极右派，后者一般主张更为孤立的外交政策和更为强硬的移民政策。帕特•布坎南就是这一派的思想领袖之一。特朗普就是从这个派系中崛起的，他成功团结全党的手段就是减税。但在大公司派的施压下，又允许企业在众多情况下延迟缴税。现在出了状况，来自极右派民兵组织的暴民和受到特朗普怂恿的白人民族主义者闯进了议长办公室。米奇•麦康纳尔眼看着特朗普像黑手党头目一样发动暴民威胁了自己。所以这次弹劾案提交参议院以后，他不会再那么坚定地站在特朗普一边了。但这其实也是共和党内部撕裂的体现。党内的某一派更认同建制派的观点，希望把特朗普赶走。因为他离开白宫后还会制造危险因素。只有弹劾，才能阻止特朗普参加2024年大选，或让他名誉扫地，让他无法再煽动暴民和草根共和党人。他一向能得到这些草根的拥趸。这一点在现代历史上所有其他的共和党领导人都没能做到。

Max Blumenthal: Part of this has to do with the long-running civil war within the Republican Party that has carried on for decades. You have the corporate white glove, patrician wing, the country-club wing of the Republican Party versus the far right of the party, which is traditionally activated on a more isolationist foreign policy and tougher policies on the border. Pat Buchanan has been one of the intellectual leaders of that wing. Trump emerged from the latter of the Republican Party, but has managed to unite the party through tax cuts and by rolling over in many cases, when he was pushed by the corporate wing. Now you have a situation where a violent mob of extreme right-wing militia members and white nationalists egged on by Trump, actually went to the speaker's office. Mitch McConnell sees that Trump like a mafia don, has sent a mob after him. He's not gonna be very positively inclined to the President this time when impeachment is brought to the Senate. But this is also about that civil war within the Republican Party, where you have a wing of the party that is more aligned with the establishment, which wants to take him out because of the threat he represents after he leaves the White House. And only by impeaching him can Donald Trump be prevented from running in 2024 or be sufficiently discredited to the point that he can no longer command these mobs and these Republican grassroots, that he's been able to reach unlike any Republican leader in modern history.

王冠：Max您刚才提到了“让美国再次伟大”派白人民族主义者和特朗普的极右翼狂热支持者，你认为这些人能在多大程度上代表投给特朗普的7400万选民？

Wang Guan: Max, you briefly touched upon the MAGA people and the white nationalists and those right-wing fanatic Trump supporters. To what extent do you think these people can represent the 74 million Americans who voted for Trump in the last election cycle?

Max Blumenthal: 在上次大选中为特朗普投票的美国人（我一直在报道草根共和党人，在我将近20年的职业生涯中一直都在做这方面的报道），我发现，草根阶层的共和党人其想法和行为，都和国会山的暴民非常类似，都受到社交媒体和阴谋论的影响。比如“匿名者Q”等阴谋论就非常盛行。特朗普也起到了作用。他扮演着非凡领袖的角色，用自己描绘的叙事哄骗暴民和草根共和党人。这是美国第一次直面共和党草根阶层的现实，这类人对7400万特朗普选民是有代表性的。但那些采取暴力行动的恶人，很大一部分是特朗普选民，比如城郊小企业主以及厌恶民主党的人。因为民主党主张的是多元文化政治。这些特朗普支持者也被暴民行动吓了一跳，但他们所共同参与的政治运动造成了今天的局面。

Max Blumenthal: I've been covering the Republican grassroots throughout my career in journalism, which spent almost two decades now. And I've found that at the real grassroots of the party, people think and behave very much like the mob that we saw on Capitol Hill. And through the effects of social media and conspiratory thinking, the "Q-Anon" conspiracy theory has been very effective. And the presence of Trump. Trump representing a singular charismatic figure feeding the mob and the Republican grassroots on the myth he represents. For the first time the United States is confronted with the reality of the Republican grassroots, which is representative of the 74 million people who voted for Trump, but who took actions that I think a majority of those Trump voters who include a large number of suburban small business owners and people who are simply repelled by the Democrats because of their multicultural politics. That majority is frightened by the actions that they took, but participated in a political project that took us to this place.

王冠：您可以填下这个空吗？特朗普会作为______被历史铭记?

Wang Guan: Can you fill in the blanks for me, Trump will go down in history as....? 

Max Blumenthal: 不能。 

Max Blumenthal: No.

王冠：试一下吧。

Wang Guan: Give it a shot.

Max Blumenthal: 特朗普会作为一个“狂妄不羁”的总统被历史铭记。他对美国体制造成的挑战超过了几乎所有美国总统，但他的愚蠢和暴躁脾气驱动的政策实际上却推动了建制派的利益。

Max Blumenthal: Trump will go down in history as a rogue president. He threatened the establishment in ways that few other presidents could have and wound up advancing the establishment's interest through his folly and ill-tempered behavior.

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