冠察天下 | 特朗普四年打造“反华共识”

编者按：国际新闻网站“灰色地带”主编Max Blumenthal接受CGTN主播王冠专访时表示，针对美国自由派，华盛顿兜售中国在新疆、香港、西藏“侵犯人权”的叙事，向铁锈带草根则不断重复“中国抢走美国就业”的说辞。在所谓价值观和原则的华丽外衣下，包裹的是其对非白人民族、非西方模式的社会超越美国的恐惧。他还指出，每当出现和美国实力接近的国家时，军工复合体、国会、鹰派学界等一众机构都会助推摩擦升级，以从中大幅渔利。

Editor's note：How did the Trump White House pull off a new Cold War on China? Max Blumenthal, Editor-in-Chief at the Grayzone, told CGTN anchor Wang Guan that smart propaganda is key. Blumenthal said the war on China is marketed to the U.S. public in term of values, yet behind it is a fear of losing U.S. supremacy.

王冠：Max，欢迎来到CGTN。

Wang Guan: Max, welcome to CGTN.

Max Blumenthal：我很荣幸。

Max Blumenthal: Great to be here.

王冠：下面来谈谈特朗普和蓬佩奥在四年执政期间的反华政策。你认为哪些机构，或者哪些人驱动了特朗普政府过去四年的反华攻势？很多人都认为这些政策相当激进，实际上已经构成了新冷战和新红色恐惧。

Wang Guan: Talking about Trump's and Pompeo's four years of anti-China policies. What institutions, or who do you think drove the Trump administration's anti-China campaign in the past four years, which many people believe were fanatic, which in effect constituted a new Cold War and a new red scare?

Max Blumenthal：我应该指出的是，迈克·蓬佩奥、唐纳德·特朗普和博明挑起的新冷战在美国右派中找到了肥沃土壤。因为和俄罗斯不同，中国是个社会主义国家。这种中美意识形态上的冲突，正是一个右翼资本主义政府可以向其本土基本盘兜售的。所以对华新冷战的作用实际上是推动特朗普的国内政治利益。除此之外，军事情报复合体和国会也起到一定作用。华盛顿的智库网络也一样。因为他们的很多资金来自军火产业和外国政府，美国的知识界也有一部分人支持这场新冷战，因为他们在其中有既得利益。每当美国有一个“实力接近自己的对手”时，他们都获利。就是说有一个强大的、美国需要加以遏制的国家。因为这场对华新冷战，大量金钱流入他们的腰包。这样的政策在拜登执政期间仍将继续，并且我认为还会进一步强调人道主义干预必要性的叙事，重点关注香港、新疆和西藏问题，这样可以在美国东西海岸的中产阶级自由派中获得共鸣，让他们相信美国发动的这场充满敌意的对华冷战，可以把无辜的人们从“独裁政权”中解救出来。他们自己是否愿意以世界毁灭为代价，换取一场只对少数美国精英有利的疯狂的大国竞争。遗憾的是，目前这样的反思还没有出现，在两党及其各自的草根阶层中都没有。

Max Blumenthal: I should mention to you that Mike Pompeo, and Donald Trump, and Matthew Pottinger whipping up a new Cold War. It fell on fertile soil domestically within the domestic right. Because unlike Russia, China is a socialist country. There is an ideological conflict there that a right-wing, ultra-capitalist administration can market it to its domestic base. 

So the new Cold War with China actually served a domestic political function for Trump, but then you have the military-intelligence complex and the Congress. The think tank complex in Washington, which is funded by the arms industry and foreign governments. You have a wing of the U.S. intelligentsia, which is committed to this new Cold War. 

They actually have skin in the game. They profit when the U.S. has what they call a near-peer competitor. A major, powerful state, which the U.S. needs to contain. Tons of money is pouring into their pockets as a result of the new Cold War with China. And it will continue to do so throughout the Biden administration, which I think will amplify the narrative of humanitarian interventionism, focusing on Hong Kong, Xinjiang, and Tibet, in order to tug at the heart strings of suggestable coastal middle-class liberals, and make them believe that this hostile U.S. Cold War to contain China actually has something to do with saving innocent people from a "dictatorial regime". Whether they want to sacrifice the survival of the world for a mad, great power competition that only benefits a small sector of their elite. 

Right now, unfortunately, reflection is not taking place within either party or their grassroots base.

王冠：说到美国对台湾、香港、南海、新疆和西藏问题的立场，你认为这些政策和立场在多大程度上是受到理想驱动的，是一以贯之的以自由为核心的价值观？又在多大程度上是受到美国精英遏制中国崛起和保持美国霸权的意图所驱动的？

Wang Guan: And then talking about America's posture towards Taiwan, Hong Kong, South China Sea, Xinjiang, and Tibet. How much of those policies and postures do you think were driven by ideals, a consistent American value system of liberty and freedom for all. How much of those policies do you think were driven by American elites' intention on containing the rise of China and keeping American supremacy?

Max Blumenthal：首先，大多数美国人并不了解中国的历史，不了解中国所遭受的百年屈辱，不了解中国被殖民的历史，不了解中国长期受到围堵的历史，不了解西藏、新疆、香港和台湾对中国有着怎样重要的战略意义。因为他们不知道美国、英国及其盟友们企图利用这些地区割裂和围剿中国，迫使北京做出巨大让步，甚至出现政权更迭。美国从一个社会主义政党的崛起中感受到了巨大威胁，因为后者能创造出全球最大的经济体，挑战了美国所占据的经济制高点，并且制造出了不同于美国垄断资本主义或者说新自由主义的经济模式。所以驱动美国政策的是冷冰冰、赤裸裸的利益，和当年乔治·凯南发电报呼吁遏制苏联的原因是一样的。另外，针对中国的复合攻击华盛顿在向民众进行解释时，都是从价值观的角度进行宣传的，为的是争取不同领域和背景的美国人的认同。对支持特朗普的铁锈地带工人的说辞是，他们丢了工作是因为中国，而不是因为美国寡头们决定把就业岗位迁到海外而非留在美国。对东西沿海的进步主义中产阶级年轻人的说辞是，中国把数百万少数民族关进集中营，而且中国不喜欢达赖喇嘛这个伟大的 “精神疗愈者”。至于这个人曾经同美国中情局配合过，华盛顿从不提及。人们也不了解外界试图通过西藏割裂中国的历史。

Max Blumenthal：First of all, most Americans don't understand China's history. Don't know they have "century of humiliation." They don't understand the history of being colonized. They don't understand the history of being consistently under siege. They don't understand why areas like Tibet, Xinjiang, Hong Kong, and Taiwan, are of such strategic importance to China, because they don't understand the United States, the UK and their allies have tried to use those areas to balkanize China and to encircle it in order to force massive concessions if not regime change in Beijing.

The U.S. is very threatened by the rise of a socialist party, which is able to produce the largest economy in the world at the commanding heights of its economy and actually present a different model to U.S. monopoly capitalism or what we would call neoliberalism. So the U.S. is guided by the cold, hard interests, the same ones as did George Kennan's telegram calling for the containment of the Soviet Union. But the way that the hybrid war on China is marketed to the U.S. public is in terms of values that different sectors and demographics of the U.S. public can recognize. 

So to workers in the Rust Belt who support Trump, China's taking your jobs, not the oligarchy decided to ship your jobs away instead of keeping them here. And to progressive, middle-class young people on the coast is, China is keeping millions of minorities in concentration camps, and it doesn't like the Dalai Lama, who was this great spiritual healer. No mention of the fact that he was a CIA asset. No understanding of what the role of Tibet has been in that war on China.

王冠：那你认为，是否存在双重标准问题？比如说美国政治人士称这些人是“本土恐怖分子”，但对香港等其他地方的抗议者却是另一套说法？

Wang Guan: Then do you think there has been double standards when you hear about U.S. politicians' characterization of these quote unquote, "domestic terrorists" versus rioters in other regions such as Hong Kong?

Max Blumenthal：美国需要反思。在国会山发生的事件他们管它叫政变、叛乱、叛国、恐怖暴民，而这些行为其实都是美国在香港委内瑞拉、尼加拉瓜、叙利亚、利比亚所鼓动的。只要是美国寻求政权更迭的地方都是如此。美国为那些地方的右翼狂热分子提供武器，利用、训练并教唆他们去攻击议会大楼，就像香港示威者所做的那样，损坏大楼的内部饰物，威吓立法者。事实上，这次美国国会暴乱时，我在推特上发了帖子。当时我的手都快冻僵了，我在推文里说，眼前的一切让我想到了我在乌克兰基辅的独立广场所看到的。当时，右翼分子企图推翻政府权力中心。唯一不同的是，时任美国助理国务卿的维多利亚·纽兰……

Max Blumenthal: Americans need to reflect on the fact that what would take place at the U.S. Capitol, which they call, coup, insurrection, treason, horrendous mob is what the United States has encouraged in Hong Kong, in across Venezuela, in Nicaragua, in Syria, in Libya, anywhere the U.S. seeks regime change. It weaponizes right-wing fanatics. Uses them, trains them, encourages them, cheers them on, as they stormed parliamentary buildings like they did in Hong Kong and deface the interior of the building, intimidate legislators. I actually tweeted in the middle of this Capitol riot. As my hands were basically freezing, that it reminded me so much of what I witnessed in Maidan square, in Kyiv, Ukraine, with all of the right-wing seeking to storm the centers of power, the only thing missing is the Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland...

王冠：所谓的“饼干女士”。

Wang Guan: The "cookie lady."

Max Blumenthal：分发饼干。没错，她当年给基辅独立广场的骚乱参与者分发了饼干。还有民主党参议员克里斯·墨菲来自康涅狄格州的重要自由派人士，他亲自去了独立广场并上台站在国家社会党极右翼成员身边，为骚乱参与者加油鼓劲。这些政策真是虚伪至极。

Max Blumenthal：...handing out cookies to the (riot). Right, handing out cookies to the riot. As she did in Maidan square, or the Democratic Senator Chris Murphy, a major liberal from Connecticut, actually visiting Maidan square and standing on stage next to a far-right member of the social national party cheering on the rioters. There's so much hypocrisy.

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