对话思想者｜中国共产党与时俱进 百年发展有目共睹

邹悦：方大为先生，可能您已经注意到了，妖魔化中国和抹黑中国已经成为美国政坛的常态，但凡选择不去批判中国的人，在美国都会被嗤之以鼻。

Zou Yue: Mr. Firestein, probably you have noticed, to demonize and demoralize China has become the political norm in the United States politics, and then anything short of criticizing China is regarded as unacceptable in America.

方大为：是的，的确如此。毫无疑问。妖魔化中国已经成为美国一种新的全国性消遣。毋庸置疑。这种反华思想已经跨越两党之别，起初主要是共和党人，现在两党皆是如此，尽管我认为共和党人尤甚。诚然，在美国，有许多关于中国的负面看法，如我常说的那样。打个比方来说，假如中国有个热心的路人，主动扶老奶奶过马路，即便是安全地通过，许多美国人也会去挑刺。

David Firestein: Yeah, that's absolutely true. There's no question about it. Demonizing China is kind of the new national pastime in the United States of America. There's no question about it. It's seeped across the partisan aisle. It started out as mostly Republican. It's certainly now pretty bipartisan, although I think it's more Republican than Democratic. And there's no question that there is a huge amount of negativity toward China, as I’ve often said. If, to use a metaphor, if China were helping an elderly grandmother across the street - to cross the street safely - many in America would find fault in that.

无论中国做什么，在许多美国人眼里都是错的。我认为这种做法、这种心态、以及下意识的反华思想对美国没有好处，这会使我们忽略一些重要的细节差异。我希望美国能淡化意识形态，以客观务实的态度看待中国。美国认为中国做的一些事情很有问题，同时，中国也认为美国做的一些事情很有问题，所以让我们聚焦于事实，并在此基础上尝试去解决问题，而不是口诛笔伐，抛出一些妖魔化对方的言论，因为这并不能解决任何问题。

No matter what China does, it's wrong in the eyes of many Americans, and I think that approach, that mindset and reflexive response to China is not helping America. I think it's causing us to miss some important nuance. I hope that our nation can get back to a less ideological and more fact-based and more pragmatic way of looking at China. Some of the things China does are very problematic for the United States. And by the way, some of the things that America does are very problematic for China, so let's look at the facts and on the basis of facts, let's try to solve problems rather than just merely hurling demonizing statements at each other because that doesn't solve anybody's problems.

邹悦：但很遗憾，像您这样想的美国人并不多。

Zou Yue: But unfortunately, you are the minority now in your country. 

方大为：说的没错。坦白说，我也因此受到不少抨击。作为乔治·布什美中关系基金会总裁，我的想法一直受老布什总统影响，我们认同老布什总统对于美中关系的看法。他认为美中关系是世界上最重要的双边关系，如果美中两国不携手，任何全球性的挑战都无法得到彻底地解决。这曾经是美国的主流观点，现在却不是了，我已经成为了少数派，但我们会继续坚持我们的信念，坚持老布什总统的主张，因为我相信这才是美国应当秉持的正确态度。

David Firestein: Yes, that's true. And quite frankly, I take a lot of hits for it and you know, listen, my North Star is President George H.W. Bush as President & CEO of the George H.W. Bush Foundation for U.S.-China Relations. We subscribe to President George H.W. Bush's views on the relationship, and he believed that the U.S.-China relationship was the most important bilateral relationship in the world, and that no global challenge could be enduringly resolved in the absence of bringing the United States and China together. That used to be a mainstream view in this country. It's not anymore, and I am in the minority. But we're going to continue to stand strong for what we believe in and for what President George H.W. Bush stood for, because I think those are the right ideas for America.

邹悦：方大为先生，目前更令人担忧的是，拜登似乎想用意识形态作为对抗中国的切入点，在对华关系上意识形态先行，但站在中国的角度上看，我们从来没有打算向美国输出意识形态，拜登似乎将中美博弈描述为民主与专制之间的斗争，中国对此难以接受。

Zou Yue: And Mr. Firestein, what is more worrying is that it seems that Biden wants to use ideology as a wedge, because ideology has been now prioritized in dealing with China, because from the Chinese perspective, we never want to export our ideology to America. But it seems Biden frames this as a battle between democracy and autocracy, which is quite unacceptable here.

方大为：我认为你的描述是正确的。拜登总统的确在反复强化一套话语体系，将中美博弈比作“民主”与“专制”之间的斗争，正如你刚才所说。我认为，美国政府和社会普遍误解了中国的理想和愿望。我不认为中国寻求向其他国家输出制度，中国不会对美国这么做，也不会对别的国家这么做。我认为中国希望维护世界安全，并不是为了输出国家体制，而是为了保障国家安全。中国希望保全自己，希望不用听命于其他任何国家，这就是中国的愿望，它将继续沿着它认为可以实现这一目标的道路前进。

David Firestein: I think your characterization is correct. There's no question that President Biden has laid out a framework in which it is kind of a democracy versus autocracy framing, as you've rightly noted. I do think there is a pretty broad misunderstanding in the United States and in Washington as to what China's aspirations are. I don't think that China seeks to export its system to others, not to the United States, not to others. I think China wants to make the world safe, not for its system, but safe for itself. It wants to exist, and it wants to not take orders or directives from any other country in the world. That's what China wants. And it's going to continue down whatever path it believes will get it to that objective.

我认为美国人对中国的意图存在一些根本性误读，虽然这些观点并不正确，但却被广泛接受，它们正将美国引入歧途，使美国无法实现预期目标，因为从根本上，我们就在以错误的假设为前提来制定政策。

And I think we have a couple of pretty fundamental misreadings of China's intentions in this country, which have become widely accepted, but which are not accurate. And they're taking our country - the United States of America - down a path that I think is not getting the United States to where it wants to get to, because we're fundamentally predicating our policy in inaccurate assumptions.

邹悦：今年是中国共产党成立100周年。我知道美国的媒体和政坛往往并不认为中国共产党是一个进步的政党，但您如何看待中共的发展历程、执政表现和成就？

Zou Yue: And this year marks the 100th anniversary of the CPC. I know that probably in the American media and political circles, they usually characterize the CPC not as a very progressive political institution, but what are your observations of its track record, its governance, its achievements?

方大为：我认为任何一名严肃正直的观察者都会承认，在过去一个世纪里，中国发生了翻天覆地的变化。中国过去和现在的经济实力有着天壤之别，2021年的中国社会与1921年的中国社会完全不同，中国人民所享有的物质富足度已大为提升，中国社会经济的各项指标都实现了长足进步，毫无疑问中国在过去一个世纪里有了翻天覆地的变化。我认为对于那些了解现今中国、那些近年来在中国生活过的人来说，这些都是不言自明的事实。

David Firestein: Well, I think there's no serious and intellectually honest observer can dispute the fact that over the last 100 years the transformation that has occurred in China has been astounding. I mean, from the standpoint of where the economy has come from and where it is now, where Chinese society was in 1921 and where it is today in 2021. The level of material comfort of the average Chinese citizen, you know, by any metric in terms of the economy and in terms of Chinese society, there's no question but that there has been an incredible transformation over these last 100 years. And I think that is self-evident to anyone who understands today's China and who is or who has spent time in China in recent years. 

我认为中国共产党本身也在某些方面改变着自己。起初它是一个毛泽东思想指导下的马列主义政党，本质上是一个革命党，而如今它在很大程度上已成为一个拥抱现代经济思想、遵循现代贸易惯例和自由市场经济准则的政党，如今的中国共产党与1921年和1951年的中国共产党相比发生了很多变化，所以我认为如今的中国共产党也早已今非昔比。中国共产党已经证明，它具备与时俱进、适应国内外变化的能力，懂得灵活变通。

I think it's also true that the party itself, the Communist Party of China itself, has been transformed in certain ways as well. It initially was a Marxist-Leninist party that embraced Mao Zedong Thought, and that was essentially a revolutionary party by definition. But now it is a political party that embraces, in many ways, modern economic thought, modern trading practices, free market principles, certainly to a significant degree. And it's a very different party than the party of 1921 or the party of 1951. And so the party itself, I think, is very different today and one thing that it's shown that it is capable of doing is adapting to changes in the world and in China, and being flexible and being nimble.

我认为中国共产党领导人，无疑对于未来充满信心。就我而言，我当然希望中国共产党能够继续坚持改革开放，锐意进取，治国有方，不断推动全球和平与发展，我认为实现这些目标也符合中国的利益。

I think that the leadership of the Communist Party of China, no doubt, looks to the future with a great sense of confidence. And for my part, I certainly would hope that the Communist Party will continue to embrace reform and opening, progress, and good governance at home, and peace and development abroad. And I think those are all objectives that I think would serve China well.

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