崔娃连线专访纽约“网红州长”：川普不喜欢我，但我们能谈成事情！（附视频&专访稿）

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美国当地时间4月22日晚间，美国网红主持人崔娃连线专访了前一天刚去白宫和大统领开会的纽约网红州长Andrew Cuomo，询问他是否有了纽约复工的计划：循序渐进，逐步开放，但还没确定下一批开放的行业。

问到Cuomo和大统领的白宫会议：虽然关系不好，但会议很有成效，做了分工。对于检测，Cuomo表示纽约还是全美都无法实现毫无疏漏的全面检测，只能依靠纽约现有的检测能力，尽可能地监控疫情。对于未来纽约人可能遇到的困境，Cuomo表示不确定性太多，现在只是摸着石头过河，先解决当下的问题。

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崔娃专访纽约网红州长 

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Governor Andrew Cuomo, welcome to The Daily Social Distancing Show. Pleasure to be with you. 

-I'm a big fan. 

-Well, thank you very much. I think everyone is a big fan of yours right now because more than ever during this pandemic, people have sought out leaders who, uh, communicate effectively and seem to know what they're trying to do. Nobody has all the answers about coronavirus, but people look for leaders who know what they would like to do. Let's start off with New York. Where does New York stand right now in terms of the numbers and in terms of its trajectory? Well, the good news is, uh, we have shown that we can control the spread of the virus, right? Which people take for granted now, but I wasn't always so sure. We could have taken all these measures-- close down, stay home-- and we could have seen that spread continue to go up. That would have been a really frightening place. 

But that was a possibility. Uh, we showed that we can  control the spread. It went up. The so-called plateau. It hit a flat spot. And now we're on the downside of the plateau. Uh, the question is how fast is that decline and, uh, how long does it take to make the decline? We have about 1,300 people per day, new diagnoses coming into the system. Uh, we lost about 474 people yesterday. Uh, which is a horrific number, but it's... 

The only good news is it's less than the previous, uh, numbers of people we-we lost. And the hospitalization rate is coming down. We have about 16,000 people in hospitals. Uh, so, the numbers are all on the decline, and that's the good news. How long does it take until that number gets to a, uh, small enough level where you can sleep at night and not worry about it? Could be two weeks. Could be three weeks. Could be six weeks. 

You're balancing the pressure of the people who want to and need to get back to earning a living and also, you know, the pressure of keeping people safe as-as a leader. How are you weighing these numbers? Is there a point when you say the risk is worth taking to go outside? Yeah, that's... You put the.. you put the question very well. 

And often the question is more important than the answer, and here is one of those cases, I think. That is the balance. The pressure that people are under is phenomenal. It is traumatic. This is traumatic for people, and that's the way I think about it. You're right. The economic pressure. You have no paycheck, but meanwhile, they're still sending you the bills. You know, there was... The-the bill collector is an essential worker, and they're piling up on your desk. You don't know when you'll go back. You don't know if you will go back. 

-Mm-hmm. 

-You don't know if your job is still there, if your business is still there. You've been in the house with the family for a month. It sounds romantic the first seven days, and then it gets highly stressful when you have everyone in that environment with nothing to do, and everyone has their own stress. So, it's a... People are about to burst on one level. They're under that kind of pressure. On the other hand, we had 474  people die yesterday. You tell me how many people go outside today and touch other people, I'll tell you how many people walk into a hospital three-three days from now. The cause and effect is that tight. 

This-this virus communicates and transfers that quickly and that precisely. So, you think a situation like New York City, where social distancing cannot happen by definition. Nobody gets six square feet of real estate, right? You don't get six feet on a subway car or on a bus or on a sidewalk. Uh, you will see those numbers go up. It is an impossible balance, Trevor. It's impossible to make people... -to make both sides happy, if you will. 

-Mm-hmm. 

And you just have to accept that. Uh, and for me, it's gonna be about the data. We're going to do testing. We're going to look at that hospitalization rate. We're going to look at that death rate. And you don't start to reopen until you have those numbers under control. 

So, what is that number for you? Do you have that number? Is there a number that medical professionals or experts have given to you and said, "This is the number that we think activates New York reopening"? 

They won't give me the number, Trevor. Because you're right. Nobody's been here on any of these situations. What they will say is the number will decline to a level that is basically a low constant. Uh, because you can't stop all transmission of the virus. Right? We're never going to get down to zero. So, when you get down to the lowest level you can, that's your low point. 

Because remember, the economy's not really closed down, right? You still have essential workers out there. You have people on buses and transportation and people in grocery stores. So, that will be some low-level constant. And once we hit that number, then you can talk about starting to reopen. So-so we're-we're seeing governors around America, we're seeing leaders around the world using different tactics to reopen their countries. 

For instance, in Denmark, they've started opening up a few schools. In Germany, they're getting ready to do that. In Georgia, they said they're going s-- they're going straight to bowling alleys and hair dressing, you know, salons, et cetera. Do you have an idea? Are you going to say to New Yorkers, "Hey, we're gonna start with these industries or this world. "We're-- Then we're going to move to this. 

Then we're going to move to that"? Or does it all open at once? Do you have an idea of what that would be? No, it has to be phased in. It has to be slow and building. And watch that infection rate as you start to open up the valve to reopen, right? As you increase the flow, keep your eye on that infection rate. 

Uh, we're gonna have the most aggressive testing program, uh, ever done, just to monitor that-that infection rate. Remember, the hospitalization rate is too late. Hospitalization rate is people who are so sick they went into a hospital. We want to track the infection rate. So we watch that, start opening the flow slowly, and then, basically, it's a matrix. How essential is the business and how high a risk does the business pose? 

The more essential businesses first, and the lower-risk businesses first. So, uh, barbershops, hair salons, to me, they are on the end of the chain because they're not that essential. People would argue. But in the scope of things, they're not that essential. And they are high-risk. 

Because I want to see a person perform a haircut and maintain socially-- social distancing while they give you a haircut. And I want to see the haircut that they do after they did it socially distant. So, that would be at the back end, right? And, on the front end, you would just basically be doing the next tranche of essential services, right? -What's the next level of essential? 

-Mm-hmm. And, uh, low-risk essential. Um, you're in an interesting, um, place right now, where you are the governor of New York but you are one of many governors who's entered into a pact to try and open up a region. Because, as you said, um, publicly, you know, the-the virus doesn't follow state lines. 

You-you can't implement this approach without the federal government helping you where it needs to. Now, yourself and Trump have gone back and forth. But one thing you both acknowledge is that, when it comes down to it, you know how to communicate and you work together. You had a meeting with the president. Was there anything fruitful from that meeting? Is there anything that's going to come from that meeting? 

And-and what is the relationship between yourself and Trump/the federal government right now in getting New York what it needs? Well, the relationship between myself and the president is, uh, the president doesn't like me. That is the relationship. It is unambiguous. It is honest. It is open. Uh, and he doesn't like my politics, let's say. Uh, and we have been at political loggerheads many times over the past few years. 

If you look at his Twitter account, you'll see my name quite often. Uh, none of it good, Trevor, none of it good. Uh, and I've sued the federal government a number of times. So that's-- it's open and it's, uh, not necessarily loving. Uh, having said that, we had a meeting in the White House, and it was a very productive meeting. 

And I don't mean in diplomatic, conceptual talk. It was a honest, open, granular, detailed conversation about the subject of testing, which is totally new for everyone. It's an impossible undertaking, because the numbers are just so extraordinary and there's so much urgency to it. But we had a very honest conversation, and we went through what is testing and what should the state do and what should the federal government do. 

And, uh, we basically allocated tasks. So it was a very positive conversation. And, look, I give them credit, because it's hard to actually sit down with someone who you have differences with and say, "Put that all aside "and let's just do our jobs here, our respective jobs, because it's bigger than we are." And-and that's what yesterday was. It was, "Forget everything else. "We're talking about life and death. "We're talking about the profound moment "of our history, "uh, that we will experience, "and we have a job to do because we're in a position. And let's just do it and forget everything else." And that's the way it should be. 

You know, who cares how he feels or how I feel? Who cares about how I feel about him personally? My feelings are irrelevant. My emotions are irrelevant. Uh, just do the job. Who cares about what I think or what he thinks? And that's what yesterday was. It's really great to hear that. And-and the testing part of it is-is what really jumps out for me. Because one thing most people seem to agree upon all across the world is, with testing, that's going to be our best defense against coronavirus before a vaccine. Testing and tracing this virus. 

What does that mean though for you, as the governor of New York? Does it mean every New Yorker has some method where they-they're self-testing or getting tested and then monitoring themselves? Does it mean that people who come from out of state or out of country can or cannot come in unless they're tested? 

I'm-I'm really intrigued by how this is gonna work. Because unless the whole world is doing the same thing, one hole might be a hole for everybody, you know? It could sink the entire ship. So what does that mean for you, in terms of testing and how it will  be applied? There will always be a net with many holes in it, uh, to stick with your analogy. 

I don't think you're going to have enough tests anywhere, uh, to d-- to design the perfect system, okay? Uh, testing capacity-- 

we are trying to jumpstart a testing laboratory system that just doesn't do this. I have private labs in my state. There are national manufacturers of lab kits and lab equipment. But we're asking them to go to 50 times what they've been doing. 

If you took every machine in the state of New York that does this, and you ran it seven days a week, 24 hours a day, you could get up to about 40,000 tests per day, all right? That is the maximum capacity. Sounds like a lot, but it's not when you're talking about 19 million people. Uh, I've done more tests in this state than any state in the United States. 

We do more tests than any country per capita, and we've tested about 500,000 people. Sounds like a lot of people. But again, not on a population of 19 million, not on a workforce of nine million. And that was 500 in one month. Uh, you want to bring them back based on tests, you can't do it. 

What tests can do is monitor the spread of the virus. That you can do with tests. And that is the single most important thing to me. Because as you're opening the reopening valve and increasing the flow, what you need to know is how many people are getting infected, and that testing can do for you. 

It can also do antibody testing, which tells us how many people were infected, but also identifies people who can do the convalescent plasma treatment, which is important. Uh, and it gives employers a tool in their workplace to test a smaller number so you know for those... that next tranche of essential businesses that their workers are fine. But you're never going to be able to do a net that covers New York or any other state. 

As-as the governor, you... you are facing a pandemic right now in one of the most affected places in the world. The... the horizon, unfortunately, brings with it another dark side, and that is people's finances. You know, yes, some people may have been able to stop paying their mortgage, some may have been given a little leeway to pay their rent or not pay their rent. What happens on the other side of this? Is there a plan to help people, to help New Yorkers, um, who now may have a landlord who says, "Well, you owe me two times the rent," Or "Now you owe me..." double this or double that. 

Is there any plan in place to try and alleviate that stress that may be felt post corona? We're talking about it, Trevor, and we're thinking about it. We don't have a specific plan yet because we don't know how bad it is. I have said, uh, short term, no one can be evicted for nonpayment, okay? 

So, you're out of work, you're not having a check-- -you cannot be evicted for nonpayment. -Right. That is the immediate short-term, uh, problem, right? Uh, depending on how long this goes, you'll have other issues down the road, no doubt. The expression "stone to stone across the morass," right? How do you get across the morass? And that's all we see right now is a morass in front of us. Stone to stone. -You don't have to figure out the whole path. 

-Mm-hmm. Just find the next firm stone to advance your progress. Uh, and that's what we're doing. So deal with the here and now, and then we'll figure out the future when we actually see what the future is. Because where we have been wrong from day one here, right? Every projection has turned out... turned out to be incorrect. So, uh, I'm at the point where, let me see the facts that I'm dealing with, and then we'll deal with them. Well, that's our show for tonight. 

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