崔娃连线专访希拉里：特朗普就是个戏精（附视频&对话稿）

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7月14日，《每日邮报》报道，希拉里·克林顿登上崔娃的访谈节目，对特朗普政府提出了尖锐的批评，对特朗普本人也提出了辛辣的批评。她警告称，特朗普11月份败选后，绝对不会从容地离开白宫，美国人民必须对此做好准备。

崔娃问希拉里，2016年大选的时候，对特朗普的判断，与现在区别大吗。希拉里大吐苦水，非常遗憾地说，2016年的时候，她就警告过美国人民，特朗普这个人不值得相信。他是个精明的商人，但是并不是优秀的政治家。

搞政治，他肯定会乱套。特朗普是个善于表演的人，希拉里认为，做真人秀明星太久，特朗普天生对舞台比较敏感，所以每一次造势活动，他都能够给自己加分。不过，对于做总统，他没有这个能力，没有这个经验，更没有任何准备。

希拉里表示，特朗普为了连任，已经对美国司法造成了极大的破坏，同时他的很多行为也一定程度上破坏了美国的言论自由。美国如今的分裂，几乎都与他有直接的关系。崔娃还问到希拉里对特朗普应对疫情的评价。希拉里表示，特朗普不尊重科学，不尊重专业，不尊重专家，以自己的判断来主导疫情的防控，引起了巨大的社会问题。任何一位成熟的人做总统，都不会犯如此低级的错误。希拉里还表示，对美国来说，最大的危险是特朗普败选后到交班的两个月。

一旦特朗普确认败选，他还有两个月时间来折腾。在这个时间段里，他会做什么，一直是比较难以预测的。如果他做出了比较出格的事情，美国国会又没有好的应对的话，对美国的利益就会带来巨大的伤害。

希拉里还表示，他有可能赖着不走。关于这个问题，崔娃也问过拜登。拜登非常明确地告诉他，如果特朗普败选后，赖着位置不走，他会动用安保力量，强行将他抬出去。当然，特朗普不至于这么无赖。不过，有应急预案总归是好的。

Secretary Clinton, welcome to The Daily Social Distancing Show.

Well, I'm social distancing in my house, and it's great to talk to you today, too. Genuinely, a lot of the time I find myself wondering just, like, what you're doing and where you are as a human being. Because I know if I was in your position, I would spend most of my time tweeting "I told you so," and then I would be, like, I'd walk around the streets, just looking at people, saying, "It could have been me, it could have been me."

So, like, what do you do? I genuinely would like to know. What do you do?

Uh, well, you know, before the lockdown I was doing all of that. I mean, you know, there's probably video somewhere.

-You should go find it, or maybe I'll help you. Uh, you know, for the last, what, how many months,

-I've been at home since, uh,

-Yeah, three months. mid-March, like everybody else. Um, and I've done a lot of, uh, walking in the woods, one of my favorite things to do. I've done a lot of reading and some writing. Uh, this was the big year that we were gonna be celebrating the hundredth anniversary of American women, uh, finally getting the right to vote. I'm working to support the groups that, um, I help support through my organization, Onward Together.

And then I get to spend time with my grandchildren, which, I have to say, is the biggest silver lining, Trevor, that you can imagine during this very, uh, difficult time. So, you know, we're... I don't know what I do all day, but I'm exhausted every night. I feel like that's everyone in corona. We're all... We're all tired, and we don't really know why. Um, I-I do know that you've been really active and, you know, and having your voice heard. One of the biggest things you've been passionate about is voting. It seems like America's on an ominous path to a November date when there's going to be a lot of questions in and around the election. Donald Trump is vehemently against mail-in voting.

What do you make of this, and what do you think the path should be to getting people the easiest access to casting their vote?

Republicans have, uh, two prongs to their strategy to try to win. The first is try to prevent as many people who think they won't vote for them from voting. So, you know, make the lines really long, uh, where young people vote or African Americans vote, uh, or Hispanics vote. Uh, try to make vote by mail as difficult as possible. Claim it's fraudulent when indeed it's not. In fact, that's how Donald Trump votes, and everybody who, uh, knows about vote by mail understands that. And, so, I've been working with a group called Democracy Docket led by the lawyer Marc Elias to help support the lawsuits that are being brought around the country just to make the vote available. You know, to make it clear that, look, let's have a fair election, and that means let as many people who are eligible citizens, uh, to go vote.

Are-are you at all concerned about, uh, irregularities in voting or fraud?

I mean, for instance, we saw the case in New Jersey-- I-I think it was a few weeks ago now-- where, ironically, it was some... a councilman who I think was, um, was changing the votes for... in Republicans' favor. Is there a part of you that-that is worried that Donald Trump will be able to use any of those stories to try and undermine the entire election and say, "You see, there's that one, and there's that one. "

I don't think we should trust this election at all because it says that I've lost"?

Well, I think it is, um, a fair point to raise as to whether or not, if he loses, um, he's going to go quietly or not, uh, and we have to be ready for that. But there have been so many academic studies and other analyses which point out that it's just a... It's an inaccurate, fraudulent claim.

There isn't that problem. All the games that are played and all of the photo IDs and any kind of restriction that can be imposed to try to keep the vote down in places that aren't going to vote for Republicans, uh, that's the real danger to the integrity of our election. That combined with misinformation and disinformation and all of the online shenanigans that we saw in 2016.

So, I'm... Look, I want a fair election. If people get to vote and they for whatever reason vote, you know, for Donald Trump, okay. We'll accept it. Not happily. But I don't think that's what will happen, because I think the more people who can actually get to the polls, whether by mail or in person, and get their votes counted, then we are going to have the kind of election we should have, and then, uh, it'll be a win both in the popular vote and in the electoral college. You, um, are the star and subject of a docuseries on Hulu. And for many people, I think maybe even myself included, I saw a side of you that was refreshing and different and...

For lack of a better term, you had a swag about you that not many people knew you had, you know? Do you feel more free, or is that just captured well in the documentary? Is there a part of you that goes like, "You know what? I'm free. Screw-screw whatever"?

Yeah, there is. There's really a big part of that. And-and the documentary, um, you know, I was interviewed for 35 hours, -and I... Yeah. -Wow. And my feeling once I agreed to do the project, uh, was, you know, this is it. I-I, you know, I'm not running for anything. I'm gonna just, you know, say it like it is the best I can. Um, and a lot of people have said what you've said. "My gosh, I never saw that side of her" or whatever.

And, so, you know, I-I know that the pressures of being in public life and being misunderstood and being, you know, kind of subjected to the attacks and the criticism, I-I know that it probably made me a little less available and open, uh, and probably a little hunkered down, if you will. And my life is a little bit like a Rorschach test where, you know, people who are comfortable with women seeking and holding power, uh, being outspoken, you know, see it and think, "Oh, my gosh. Well, yeah, of course."

And then people who aren't, maybe they'll, you know, begin to, you know, think differently about that. Many women have said that. They've said, "Hillary Clinton got further and did more than I ever dared to think was possible."

If there's... If there's another Hillary out there who's running and beginning her journey, what would you warn her about or tell her to try and look out for to just give her a little advantage in a world where she desperately needs it?

You will be criticized no matter what you do. Um, and, so, take criticism seriously, because sometimes your critics actually can teach you something. But don't take it personally. Don't let it eat away at you. Don't let it knock you down and keep you down. The women who I admire that, you know, Chelsea and I wrote that book about, Gutsy Women, are women who are not just in it for themselves. Whatever it is that motivates you, have something bigger than yourself that is going to get you up in the morning and keep going, because it can be brutal out there.

- It can be incredibly difficult.

- You can be called a nasty woman, for heaven's sakes. Uh, so what you've got to do is just believe. Not just in yourself alone but in what you're trying to do for others, and that will keep you motivated no matter what. Let me ask you this question. Is...

Are you now ready to wear a mask now that Donald Trump has finally put one on?

I'm assuming you just haven't been wearing one -waiting for this moment.

-Yeah. No, I mean, I've actually been wearing one. And, uh, I-I think, you know, better late than never, I guess. Uh, my daughter had a great tweet which I retweeted where she said, "Look, I'm not being sarcastic. "If he would sell masks "with his face on them "and go ahead and make the money, at least it would send a good message."

So, now that he has been seen once in a mask, maybe, uh, those people who still, you know, take their cues from him will similarly start wearing masks. Because we're in a desperate situation again, Trevor. I mean, look. I mean, Florida, if it were an individual country right now, would have the fourth highest rate in the world -after the overall U.S. and Brazil and India. -Mm-hmm. So, uh, you know, we are a long way from getting this, uh, under control. But there's no denying that every country, once they got a-an idea of what the coronavirus was, handled it differently.

When you look back at the way America handled it, once people understood how severe this was, where do you think President Trump went wrong? Or where do you think a-a good president would have done something differently?

Well, I-I think you have to start with, um, uh, President Trump's, uh, total hostility toward science, evidence, facts, logic, reason. He is a showman. He is a reality TV star. He likes to try to bend reality to suit his own, uh, preferences. And he clearly started hearing about this back in January through intelligence briefings that he either read or he didn't read.

But even before that, he had disbanded the, uh, unit within the National Security Council that would try to get ahead of and follow, uh, the development of pandemics abroad. He had really made it clear that he was more interested in the optics than the facts when the, uh, virus first hit and he kept saying, you know, "We have 15 cases. It'll be over soon."

So you-you got to begin and end with his total, um, lack of leadership, his indifference toward what this virus has cost us, not only in lives but in jobs and livelihoods. And then now, of course, he doesn't want to hear from our leading infectious disease experts like Dr. Fauci. He doesn't want to hold, uh, the-- even the sham of the meetings that he used to hold to try to talk about it. He's-he's hoping that it either goes away or it leaves our attention span, so that he can get back to, you know, pretending to be president.

You-you very rightfully call him a showman. I mean, that's something we all acknowledge. Donald Trump has an uncanny ability to put on a show and just really, you know, suck all of the attention that the media wants to give him. There has to be a part of you that-that, you know, I guess, is-is a little angry at that. Because, I mean, when you're running for president, a lot of it in America, specifically, is about putting on the show.

Do you-- do you sometimes wish there was a-- like, a-- like, a-a test that you would have to write? Is there some-- 'Cause you're sitting at home and you have so many of these answers and you've studied so hard, but, really, you got-- you-you got beaten by a showman who just knew how to win the ratings. How do you feel about that when you see what America's going through now?

Well, it breaks my heart. Uh, because I tried to warn people, um, during the campaign that he was not fit for the office, he wasn't prepared for the office, that his, um... his-his appeals to the basest instincts among us was really setting us up for even more divisiveness. And then I saw it, literally, from the inauguration forward. Um, I take no pleasure in that.

Because, look, I-I want to root for America. I want to root for anybody who's our president. It's just hard to see what he's done to the office, his undermining of our institutions, his-his absolute... uh, disregard for the rule of law. And I think you're right that it is p-- it's painful, uh, for me, uh, but, I think, for many Americans who expected better. Uh, even people who voted for him, uh, expected him to rise to the job. And, increasingly, that has become, you know, just impossible to expect any longer.

I have to ask you about Roger Stone. Help me understand. A) Why do presidents or should presidents have the power to pardon anybody, especially someone who's related to them, in a case? And, secondly, what precedent could Trump be setting for America/ do you think it's going to be a precedent where a president says, "I will pardon anybody who protects me by not snitching"?

Well, I think you just summed up why Roger Stone was pardoned. I mean, he basically threatened Trump. You know? He basically said, "I sure don't want to go to jail, "and I sure have a lot more to say. "And, boy, I just wish there would be somebody who could stop me from having to go to jail." And, guess what, you know, Trump intervened. This is an extension of the total disregard for the rule of law.

The pardon power is supposed to be used for compassionate purposes, um, to try to right wrongs, to try to make sure that people are not, uh, being punished unfairly or have been punished enough. And, in this case, it's a continuation of the cover-up. Because the one thing that Trump is fearful of, uh, when it comes to his being president, is that, finally, we will see how illegitimate his victory actually was and how he was involved in, uh, the, uh, seeking of foreign help and then the utilization of it and how Roger Stone was critical to that.

But, you know, unless Trump is defeated at the polls in November, we will never really know everything there is to know about this really deep, ongoing, uh, uh, dismantling of institutions and undermining the rule of law and the original sin of, uh, the way that he actually, um, won the election. So Roger Stone was in the middle of it all. And, uh, that's why, you know, Trump had to cover it up.

Well, Secretary Clinton, thank you so much for taking the time today. Um, I hope you enjoy the gardening, your walks in the woods. And, hopefully, you'll be back out in the streets saying "I told you so" sooner than later.

I'll look forward to that, Trevor. And stay healthy and stay safe yourself.

Will do. Thank you very much.

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