​袁岚峰对话诺奖得主约阿希姆·弗兰克（三）美国科学为什么成功？诺奖得主谈亲身经历：每个创意都该被尊重 | 科技袁人

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无论创意来自何处，都能立即得到欣赏和认可，即使是来自本科生的主意。

视频链接：

西瓜视频：https://www.ixigua.com/6906396818624643597本视频发布于2020年12月16日，播放量已超二百万

本文为袁岚峰对话诺奖得主

约阿希姆·弗兰克之三，

系列之一、二见

美国科学家约阿希姆·弗兰克、瑞士科学家雅克·杜博歇以及英国科学家理查德·亨德森，因为研发冷冻电子显微镜，获得了2017年的诺贝尔化学奖。冷冻电镜技术是如何研发出来的？它又有什么作用？欢迎大家持续关注我与约阿希姆·弗兰克的对谈视频。

约阿希姆·弗兰克与袁岚峰对话

袁岚峰

In recent World Laureates Forum held in Shanghai, you mentioned an opportunity and challenge tofuture science, i.e., a cryo-EM with the price of 6 million dollars is tooexpensive for most labs. What ideas do you have to this?

在最近在上海召开的世界顶尖科学家论坛上，您提到了一个未来科学的机遇与挑战：600万美元的显微镜对大多数实验室来说都太贵了。请问您对此有什么想法？

约阿希姆·弗兰克

Well, the sixmillion dollar is a surprise tag for the high end microscope.So many, many labsaround the world have brought and, you know, scrape money together for this.But this is a very good machine, many people are happy about it, but the costis so enormous that a normal lab cannot afford it.嗯，600万美元的确价格惊人，因为它是个高端的显微镜。全世界很多很多的实验室不得不为它四处凑钱。这是一台非常好的机器，很多人对它很高兴，但它成本也的确高到让普通实验室买不起。 
They have to getmoney together from the institutions, sometimes several institutions, plusgovernment money.他们必须从一些机构，有时是好几个机构，再加上政府来凑钱。So it's notpossible to get a government grant, in any of the countries that I know tosimply buy this, okay.所以在我所知的任何一个国家，都不太可能得到政府的补助金去直接买它。 So which reallymeans that the instrument is really something like a privilege of very largecenters, either very rich universities or are these are government centers thatare set up specifically for core instrumentation, but that really means thatyou need to shift the specimens there or you have to travel there, so it's not good. And that's why I said, yeah, a solution has to be found for reducing theprices of these instruments.所以这实际上意味着这种仪器成了某种特权，只属于很大的研究中心或者很富裕的大学，或者是专门为核心仪器而设立的政府中心。这实际上意味着你需要把自己标本运输到那里或者你必须去自己旅行那些地方做实验，所以这很不好。这就是为什么我说，必须找到一个降低这些仪器价格的解决方案。

约阿希姆·弗兰克

You make theinstrument available to very many people rather than just as a single or a fewprinces.

你把仪器提供给更多的人，而不是给少数的王公贵族。

袁岚峰

How much progressdo we get in this direction?在这个措施上我们的进展如何呢？

约阿希姆·弗兰克

Yeah, I think right now there's just an announcement. In fact, it's going to be, maybetomorrow, an announcement by a Thermo Fisher about and lower cost instrument.There's some kind of a webinar, and I registered for it, and maybe other peoplealready know about the instrument, but I am right now I am not informed aboutit, but tomorrow I am going to know about it.

我想刚好现在就会有一个声明。事实上，也许明天，赛默飞公司将发布一份关于低成本仪器的声明。还有一个网络研讨会，我已经注册了，也许其他人已经知道相关的仪器了，但是我现在还没有收到通知，但是明天我会知道的。

袁岚峰

Thank you so much,so the next question is that You were born in Germany, and worked in the USwhen you got the Nobel Prize. How do you think about the systems of science andeducation in Europe and in the US? What are the merits worth learning for Chinaor the shortcomings which China should avoid?

您出生在德国，获得诺贝尔奖时工作在美国。请问您对欧洲和美国的科教体系有什么看法？其中有哪些值得中国学习的地方或者中国应该避免的缺点？

约阿希姆·弗兰克

Well, that's aninteresting question. When I got my academic education in Germany, everythingwas organized in a very autocratic way. So that a top down kind of way withstudents having very little say. So I think this is not a very good system. Ithink a lot has changed after my departure. You know I left Germany in 1970.

嗯，这是个有趣的问题。当我在德国接受学术教育时，一切都是以非常专制的方式组织起来的。学生们几乎没有发言权。所以我认为这不是一个很好的系统。我想，在我离开后应该已经发生了很多变化。你知道我在1970年就离开了德国。

袁岚峰

Just after you gotyour PhD?

就在你拿到博士学位后？

约阿希姆·弗兰克

Yes, yes, that'swhere I got my PhD, and then afterwards I was just traveling in the UnitedStates and there was England and then came back to the United States.

是的，是的，那是我取得博士学位的地方，后来我去美国旅行，又去了英国，然后又回到了美国。

So I have only aninsight about the system right up to the time when I got my PhD and there Iobserved I think it was sort of an unhealthy way or science was organized. Itwas really top down and that's not a good atmosphere for innovation andcreativity.

所以我在德国的体系内部，只到我获得博士学位为止，在那里我观察到，我认为那时的学术行为不太健康，或者说科学是被组织驾驭起来的。这真的是自上而下的，这就不是一个创新和创造的好氛围。

In the UnitedStates was the opposite, I've got to appreciate the labs in which creativeideas, no matter where they come from, are immediately appreciated andrecognized, even from an undergraduate, you know.

在美国，情况恰恰相反，我很欣赏那里的实验室，在那里，无论创意来自何处，都能立即得到欣赏和认可，即使是来自本科生的主意。

So it was acompletely different situation, and I come to appreciate this Anglo Saxon wayof doing science. And as you know England was very successful in spearheadingthe whole revolution in molecular biology, molecular genetics.

所以这里情况完全不一样，我开始欣赏盎格鲁-撒克逊人做科学的方式。正如你们所知，英国在分子生物学，分子遗传学的整个革命中都是先锋。

So, that’s really Ithink this at the core of why so many successful science was done in the UnitedStates. So what can China learn from this way, which is pretty obvious right?It's pretty obvious.

所以，我真的认为这就是为什么美国有这么多成功的科学的核心原因。那么，中国能从这种方式中学到什么呢？这是显而易见的，对吗？很明显。

袁岚峰

Thank you very much. Do you have close collaborations with Chinese scientists? How do youthink about the situation of science and education in China? Do you havesuggestions?

您跟中国科学家的合作多吗？您觉得中国的科教现状如何？有什么建议？

约阿希姆·弗兰克

Well I have a goodrelationship to Tsinghua University, and I already mentioned Yigong Shi. AndI've been interacting with them. I'm on a scientific advisory board there, andI've visited a whole number of times and participated on the faculty ofworkshops.

嗯，我和清华大学关系很好，我已经提到过施一公了。我一直在和有他们交流。我是那里的一个科学咨询委员会的成员，我访问了很多次，还作为教师参加过研讨会。

So it's sort ofinteresting. As you know, it was always the way to really get into a career,was to essentially leave China and then get to either Europe or the UnitedStates and get a postdoc experience there and then come back and then isimmediately come into a position.

所以这在某种意义上是有趣的。正如你所知道的，这一直是真正进入职业生涯的方式，基本上是离开中国，然后去欧洲或美国，在那里获得博士后的经验，然后回来，然后立刻找到一个位置。

You might bechanging, you know, because of this very strange attitude that has developed inthe United States. But maybe there's going to be a change again, so I am reallynot sure there could be a change in that kind of pattern. It might be. It mightbe possible for a Chinese student to get his merits and apprenticeship in Chinadirectly as years go by.

这些可能正在改变，你知道，因为这种非常的态度。但也许还会有变化，所以我真的不确定这种模式是否会有变化。可能是的。随着时间的推移，一个中国学生有可能在中国能直接获得自己应有价值和身份。

So I'm really not surewhat to say because China has been in a growth spurt, you know, in a very biggrowth spurt, and there are lots more opportunities, you know, lots more veryexpensive technology, even at distant places. So it's sort of a changingpattern now.

所以我真的不知道该说什么，因为中国处于快速增长期，你知道，它处在一个快速的增长期里，这里有更多的机会，你知道，有很多非常昂贵的技术，即使在偏远地区。所以它现在正处于一种改变的模式中。

袁岚峰

Thank you verymuch, so at last, do you have some words to Chinese people?

非常感谢，最后，你对中国观众还有什么话要说吗？

约阿希姆·弗兰克

Um, well I have tostrongly emphasized that science is international. It always was international.And I feel cringe when I hear about, you know, something like Chinese scienceor American science.

嗯，我必须强调科学是国际性的。它总是国际性的。因此当我听到像中国科学或美国科学之类的言论时，我会感到尴尬和不安。 It is a method andits uniquely combines people in recognizing the triumph of rationalism, Okay?科学是一种方法，它独特地团结了人们，承认了一种理性主义的胜利，不是吗？

袁岚峰

I guess there'sonly one way to think straight, and that's really essentially, you know, followthe recipe of the scientific method, and you can talk to anybody in the worldabout your ideas, and they appreciated if they are educated in the same way.

我想只有一种正确思考的办法，基本上就是，你知道的，遵循科学方法，你可以和世界上任何人谈论你的想法，如果他们同样接受过科学教育，他们会欣赏你的想法。

So it reallycrosses all borders. And it's my sincere hope that at this stage, this way andthat we can use science to solve the most pressing problems and includingglobal warming.

所以科学真的跨越了所有的边界。我真诚地希望，在现在这个阶段，我们可以共同用科学来解决最紧迫的问题，包括全球变暖。

Thank you so much, it's very nice to meetyou, and we wish you a faster recovery. we hope to interview you or to meet you sometime again.

非常感谢，很高兴见到你，我们祝你早日康复。我们希望有机会与再次和您聊天。

约阿希姆·弗兰克

Yeah.

当然有。

主持人：Thank you so much, Professor Frank. Hope you enjoy this interview, have a good day, bye.

非常感谢你，弗兰克教授。希望你喜欢这次采访，祝你今天愉快，再见。

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作者简介：袁岚峰，中国科学技术大学化学博士，中国科学技术大学合肥微尺度物质科学国家研究中心副研究员，科技与战略风云学会会长，“科技袁人”节目主讲人，安徽省科学技术协会常务委员，中国青少年新媒体协会常务理事，入选“典赞·2018科普中国”十大科学传播人物，微博@中科大胡不归，知乎@袁岚峰（https://www.zhihu.com/people/yuan-lan-feng-8）。

  背景简介：视频发布于2020年12月16日《美国科学为什么成功？诺奖得主谈亲身经历：每个创意都该被尊重》（https://www.ixigua.com/6906396818624643597）。

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