实录 | CGTN女主播刘欣与FOX女主播翠西的“跨洋对话”（全程实录+翻译） | 自由微信

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实录 | CGTN女主播刘欣与FOX女主播翠西的“跨洋对话”（全程实录+翻译）

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本文综合自央视新闻联播、中国日报双语新闻、

蔡雷英语、请拥抱我的世界等

https://v.qq.com/txp/iframe/player.html?width=500&height=375&auto=0&vid=x0030a5mn1i2019年5月30日央视新闻联播

北京时间5月30日8点26分，中央广播电视总台中国国际电视台（CGTN）主播刘欣与美国福克斯商业频道（Fox Business Network）主播翠西·里根（Trish Regan）就中美摩擦等相关议题进行一场面对面、直击焦点的“跨洋对话”。以下是全程实录和翻译。

https://v.qq.com/txp/iframe/player.html?width=500&height=375&auto=0&vid=r08774tv42d

“跨洋对话”全程实录

Trish Regan:

Tonight I have a special guest joining me all the way from Beijing China to discuss the challenges of trade between the US and her home country. She's the host of a prime-time English-language television program overseen by the CCP, the Chinese Communist Party. And though she and I may not agree on everything, I believe this is actually a really unique opportunity, an opportunity to hear a very different view as these trade negotiations stall out. It's helpful to know how the Chinese Communist Party is thinking about trade and about the United States. In the interest of transparency, I should explain that I don't speak for anyone but myself as the host of a Fox Business show. My guest, however, is part of the CCP and that's fine. As I said I welcome different perspectives on this show. With all that in mind, I'm very pleased tonight to welcome Ms. Liu Xin, host to the primetime opinion program The Point with Liu Xin to Trish Regan Primetime tonight.

And just quickly to the viewers, please bear with us as we have a significant time delay in our satellites between Beijing in the US and because of that we're gonna do our very best not to speak over each other. But Xin welcome. It's good to have you here.

翠西：（主要内容）

首先欢迎刘欣。然后说明立场，我代表我自己，而刘欣是代表communist party的。当然这也没问题，因为我们欢迎不同的声音。

Liu Xin:

Thank You. Trish Thank You Trish for having me it's a great opportunity for me unprecedented. I never dreamed that I would have this kind of opportunity to speak to you and to speak to many audiences in ordinary households in the United States …I need to correct I need to correct…Trish I have to get it straight, I am NOT a member of the Communist Party of China. This is on the record. So please don't assume that I'm a member and I don't speak for the Communist Party of China, and I'm here today I'm only speaking for myself as Liu Xin, a journalist working for CGTN. So, if anyone wants to quote me or anything, please put my name there at least, OK?

刘欣：（主要内容）

非常感谢给我这个史无前例的机会。不过不好意思我不是党员，我只代表我自己，请查查资料，不要先入为主。

谈及中美贸易谈判

中国政府已明确表明立场

Trish Regan:

Okay appreciate it. Um what's your current assessment of where the trade talks actually are right now? Give me your current assessment and where we are on these trade talks. Do you believe a deal is possible?

翠西：（主要内容）

好的。那你怎么看待当前中美贸易谈判呢？有没有可能达成协议？

Liu Xin:

It is true that the satellite connection is not very good. But I believe that you are asking me where we are in terms of the trade negotiations. I don't know. I don't have any insider information. What I knew was the talks were not very successful last time they were going on in the United States, and now I think both sides are considering what to go next but I think China has made it, the Chinese government has made its position very clear that unless the United States treat the Chinese government, treat the Chinese negotiating team with respect and show the willingness to talk without using outside pressure and there is high possibility that there could be a productive trade deal. Otherwise I think we might be facing a prolonged period of process for both sides.

刘欣：（主要内容）

我没有内幕消息，具体情况我也不清楚。我知道的是，中方政府已经表明立场，如果美方给予我们尊重，且不给我们施加外部压力，诚心谈判的话，达成协议是很有可能的。否则当前这种情况还会僵持很久。

谈及知识产权

中国社会对加强知识产权保护是有广泛共识的

Trish Regan:

And I would stress that trade wars are never good. They're not good for for anyone. So I want to believe, Xin, I want to believe that something can get done (Liu Xin: agreed) and these are certainly challenging times I realized there's a lot of rhetoric out there. But let me turn to one of the biggest issues and that's intellectual property rights. I mean fundamentally I think we can all agree it's never right to take something that's not yours and yet in going through so many of these cases, cases at the independent World Trade Organization, the WTO that China's a member of, as well as the the DOJ and FBI, cases you can actually see some of them on the screen right now. There's evidence there that China has stolen enormous amounts of intellectual property, hundreds of billions of dollars worth now. You know that's a lot of money. But it's really I guess we shouldn't really care if it's hundreds of billions of dollars or just 50 cents. How do American business operate in China if they're at risk for having their property, their ideas, their hard work stolen?

翠西：（主要内容）

我有好多案例可以证明中国偷了价值数千亿的知识产权。如果美国企业总是面临要被偷走知识产权的风险，它们还怎么在中国做生意呢？

Liu Xin:

Well I think Trish, you have to ask American businesses whether they wanted to come to China, whether they find coming to China and cooperating with Chinese businesses has not been profitable or not. And they will they will tell you their answers. As far as I understand, many American companies have been established in China and they're very profitable and the great majority of them I believe plan to continue to invest in China and explore the Chinese market. Well now US president Donald Trump's tariff makes it a little bit more difficult, makes the future a little bit uncertain. I do not deny that there are IP infringement, there are copyright issues, or there are piracy, or even theft of commercial secrets. I think that is something that has to be dealt with and I think the Chinese government and the Chinese people and me as an individual, I think there's a consensus because without the protection of IP right, nobody, no country, no individual can be stronger, can develop itself. So I think that is a very clear consensus among the Chinese society. And of course there are cases where individuals, where companies go and steal. And I think that's a common practice probably in every part of the world. There are companies in the United States who sue each other all the time over infringement on IP rights. And you can't say simply because these cases are happening that America is stealing or China is stealing or the Chinese people are stealing. And basically that's the reason why I wrote that rebuttal because I think this kind of blanket statement is really not helpful really not helpful.

刘欣：（主要内容）

这个问题你要去问美国企业自己。它们在中国赚了那么多钱，你问它们愿不愿意来中国做生意。我不否认中国有侵犯知识产权的情况，但是在中国已经有了保护知识产权的共识。而且这种侵权情况并不是只有中国才有，你们美国内部也经常有知识产权纠纷案件。所以你不能光凭一些案例就说中国在偷知识产权，你这种说法没有实质的帮助。

华为

只要是为了合作和互相学习

华为绝对可以分享科技成果

Trish Regan:

Well it's not just a statement it's multiple reports including evidence from the WTO. But let me ask you about Huawei because that's certainly in the headlines right.

翠西：（主要内容）

行吧，但这不是一种“说法”，而是有WTO证据背书的各种报告。现在我想问问你有关华为的情况。

Liu Xin:

Sure I don't deny those.

Trish Regan:

I mean you know look I think as I said we can all agree that if you're gonna do business with someone, it has to be based on trust. And you don't want anyone stealing your valuable information that you've spent decades working on. Anyway China passed a law in 2017 requiring tech companies to work with the military and the government. So it's not just individual companies, right, that might be getting access to this technology. It's the government itself which is an interesting nuance. But I get that China is upset that Huawei's not being welcomed into the US markets. I totally get it. So let me just ask you this. It's an interesting way to think about it I think. What if we said “hey, you know, sure, Huawei, come on in, but here's the deal, you must share all those incredible technological advances that you've been working on. You got to share it with us." Would that be okay?

翠西：（主要内容）

中国对华为禁令一事感到很不安，这一点我很理解。假设我们敞开怀抱欢迎华为，但前提条件是华为要和我们分享所有的科技成果，你觉得这可行吗？

Liu Xin:

I think it is if it is through cooperation, if it is through mutual learning, if you pay for the use of this IP, of this high technology, I think it's absolutely fine. Why not? We all prosper because we learn from each other. I learnt English because I had American teachers. I learned English because I had American friends. I still learn how to do journalism because I have American copy-editors or editors. So I think that's fine as long as it is not illegal. I think everybody should do that and that's how you get better, right?

刘欣：（主要内容）

只要不违法，只要是为了合作和互相学习，这绝对可以。

Trish Regan:

But you mentioned something pretty important, which is that you should pay for the acquisition of that and you know look I think that the liberalized economic world in which we live has valued intellectual property, and it's governed by a set of laws, and so we all need to kind of play by the rules and play by those laws if we're going to have that kind of trust between each other. But I think you bring up some good points.

翠西：（主要内容）

你提到了一点，想拥有就要花钱买。在我们自由市场经济体制的国家，我们很注重知识产权和规则。如果我们要建立信任，就必须遵守规则。

谈及发展中国家地位

中国人均GDP不及美国人均GDP的六分之一

Trish Regan:

Let me turn to China right now which is now, Wow, the second largest economy. At what point will China decide to abandon its developing nation status and will stop borrowing from the World Bank?

翠西：（主要内容）

中国什么时候才能不把自己定义为发展中国家？什么时候才能停止向世界银行借钱？

Liu Xin:

Well I think this kind of discussion is going on and I've heard very live discussions about this. And indeed there are people talking about China already becoming so big. Why don't you just grow up. Basically I think you said it in your programas well. China, grow up! Well I think we want to grow up. We don't want to be, you know, dwarfed or poor, underdeveloped all the time. But it depends on how you define developing country, right? If you look at China's overall size, the overall size of the Chinese economy, yes we are very big, the world's number one. But don't forget we have 1.4 billion people, that is over three times the population of the United States. So if you divide the second largest overall economy in the world, basically when it comes down to per capita GDP, well, I think less than 1/6 of that of the United States and even less than some other more developed countries in Europe. So you tell me where should we put ourselves? This is a very complicated issue because per capita as I said is very small but overall it's very big. So we can do a lot of big things and people are looking upon us to do much more around the world. So I think we are doing, that we're contributing to the United Nations, we're the world's biggest contributor to the UN peacekeeping missions,and we are giving out donations and humanitarian aids and all of that because we know we have to grow up. And and Trish thank you for that reminder.

刘欣：（主要内容）

虽然中国是世界第二大经济体，总体看起来很庞大，但是毕竟中国有14亿人口，你算一下平均数就知道我们有多穷了，人均GDP只有美国的六分之一。所以你说说看我们到底应该把自己摆在什么位置？这是个复杂的问题。此外，作为世界第二大经济体，中国也没闲着，也做了很多贡献，联合国维和，人道主义救援，诸如此类。

关于关税

改变规则必须是多边决定

Trish Regan:

Let's get to the tariffs. I've seen some of your commentaries too and Xin I appreciate that you think China could lower some of its tariffs. I watched you say that and I'm totally in agreement with you. In 2016, the average tariff, effectively a tax, that was charged on an American good in China with 9.9 percent and that was nearly three times what the US was charging. So what do you say about this? What do you think about saying “hey you know the heck with these tariffs, let's get rid of them altogether.“ Would that work?

翠西：（主要内容）

我有个想法，去它的关税吧，要不然我们互相之间都不要征收关税了，你觉得怎么样？

Liu Xin:

I think that would be a wonderful idea. I mean don't you think for American consumers, products from China would be even cheaper, and for consumers in China products from America would be so much cheaper, too? I think that will be a wonderful idea. I think we should work towards that. But you know you talked about rule-based system, rule-based order. This is the thing. If you want to change the rules, it has to be done in mutual consensus. Basically, we talk about tariffs, it is not just between China and the United States. I understand if you lower tariffs just between China and the United States, the Europeans will come, the Japanese will come, the Venezuelans probably will come and say “hey we want the same therapy”. You can't discriminate, you know, between countries. So it is a very complicated settlement to reach. I think the last time when the world agreed on the kind of tariff reduction China should commit to was exactly the result of multilateral and years of difficult negotiations. The United States saw in its interest and decided to what degree they can agree or to what degree they can lower their tariffs. Nobody put a gun at their head. And China agree to, although with some difficulties, to lower our tariff considerably. It is all the decision of countries according to their own self-interests. Now things are different. yes I agree 20 years later, what are we going to do? Maybe these old rules need to be changed, you know. What, let's talk about it, let's do it according to the rules. If you don't like the rules, well, change the rules. But again, it has to be a multi-lateral decision, process.

刘欣：（主要内容）

这个想法很好，我们应该朝这个方向努力。但是你也说了，我们要遵守规则，只有双方达成一致才行。但这也不仅仅是中美两国之间的事情，其他国家会有异议，你不能歧视不同的国家。况且这种一致协议也不是那么容易就达成的，参照以往案例，都是不同国家基于自身利益，通过多年的艰苦沟通才最终达成协议。虽然现在时过境迁，也许旧有的规则不再适用，我们要去改变一些规则，但还是同样一句话，这不是单方面的事情，是要经过多方的协商决定的。

关于中国特色市场经济

我们的经济制度是多元开放的

Trish Regan:

You can go back to the trade agreement of 1974 section 301, there is a rule that enables the United States to use tariffs to try and influence the behavior of China. Should it be taking stealing our intellectual property? In that I think in some ways as part of what this all comes back to and it's this sense of trust, and I hear you on the forced technology transfer, and I think that some American companies perhaps have made some mistakes in terms of being willing to overlook what they might have to give up and then your term. But this is an issue I think where the country as a whole needs to step in and we're seeing the United States do that perhaps in a way that hasn't happened. I mean it's been in the background. Don't get me wrong. I think previous administrations have identified the challenge but have really been a little unwilling to take it on, so we're living in these very different times. How do you define state capitalism?

翠西：（主要内容）

你是怎么定义中国的国家资本主义的？

Liu Xin:

We would like to define a socialism with Chinese characteristics where the market forces are expected to play the dominating or the deciding role in the allocation of resources. Basically you know we want it to be a market economy but there are some Chinese characteristics. For instance, some state-owned enterprises, which are playing important but increasingly smaller role maybe in the economy. And everybody thinks that China's economy is state-owned, everything is state-controlled, everything is state state state. But let me tell you, it is not the true picture. If you look at the statistics, for instance, 80% of Chinese employees were employed by private enterprises. 80% of Chinese exports were done by private companies, were produced by private companies. About 65% of technological innovation were achieved, were carried out by private enterprises. Some of the largest companies that affect our life, for instance some internet companies or some 5g technology companies, they are private companies. So we are yes a socialist economy with Chinese characteristics. But not everything is state-control, state-run, it's not like that. We are actually quite mixed, and very dynamic and actually very very open as well.

刘欣：（主要内容）

就是中国特色的社会主义，市场在资源分配中扮演主要角色。不要认为在中国什么都是国有的，什么都是国家控制的。国有企业的影响力正在不断降低。中国80%的就业是民营企业提供的，80%的出口是民营企业制造的，65%的创新是民营企业创造的。其实我们的经济制度是多元的、活跃的、开放的。

Trish Regan:

Well I think you need to probably keep being open. I think that you know as a free trade person myself I think that's the direction to pursue and ultimately that leads to greater economic prosperity for you and better economic prosperity for us. And so then you get a win-win. This was interesting, I appreciate you being here. Thank you.

翠西：（主要内容）

我觉得你们需要保持开放的态度。这样你们我们双方的经济才能繁荣富强，才能实现共赢。今天的对话很有意思，谢谢你。

Liu Xin:

Thank you thank you so much if you want to have discussion in the future, we can do that. If you want to come to China, (Trish: I’d love it) you're welcome and i'll take you around. Thank you Trish for the opportunity. Thank you so much.

刘欣：（主要内容）

也谢谢你。如果想聊咱们再约。你想来中国的话我带你转转。（翠西：好啊好啊）

Trish Regan:

You know, look I would just say as I told Xin, no one wants a trade war. But we have to think long and hard about the right next steps.

翠西：（主要内容）

没有人想要贸易战。下一步怎么走，我们要三思而后行。

北京时间8点43分58秒，跨洋对话结束，刘欣在结束语中欢迎Trish来中国看看。

双方的辩论引发广泛关注。从社交平台的网民反馈看，翠西一改昔日的做派，始终没有“发怒”，而刘欣大气严谨、睿智平和，对答如流。

针对翠西充满愤怒情绪的言论，刘欣在视频中条理清晰地驳斥。看视频感受一下：

https://v.qq.com/txp/iframe/player.html?width=500&height=375&auto=0&vid=s0874s1hiww

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