【中美艺术对撞机】海上岩画 VS 比尔·沃拉克拼贴画，及他们的机锋对谈

1952年11月生于上海市，先锋诗人、诗评家、自由作家。诗歌意象前卫，诗作苍茫大气，出神灵性；多年来，一直致力于梳理、思考中国史前文化，被誉为“民间思想家”。上世纪80年代，组诗《岛，东方人的命运》在《世界日报》发表后引起关注，在海内外发表诗作及文稿500余行（组）。已出版诗集、随笔、文论包括：《还魂鸟》、《死，遗弃以及空舟》、《人海》（短、长诗版）、《海上短诗选》、《影子奔向四面八方》、《自由手稿》（第一部）、《中国人的岁时文化》、《走过两界河》、《旷。草木原形》、《侘寂的魂影》、《隐秘图腾：琥珀星》……2011年完成五千行长诗《时间形而上》，表现出诗人愈加成熟的哲思与语言艺术水乳交融达到的新境界。诗歌被译为英语、西班牙语、意大利语等，散见意大利《La Macchina Sognante》、阿根廷《Buenos Aires Poetry》等杂志。

HAI Shang's Bio:

Born in November 1952 in Shanghai, Hai Shang is an avant-garde poet, a critic as well as a freelance. He is an expert in rock paintings, and enjoys widespread reputation as “the Folk Thinker”.

Published books include: The Revived Bird, Death, Desertion and an Empty Boat, Scattered Shadows, Manuscripts of Random Thoughts,  Origins of Flora of the Mortal World, A Soul Brimming with Solitude, Mistletoe, Embryonic, and his most famous full-length poem Time, in Its Metaphysical Sense. His most recent encyclopedic anthology Star of Amber (Encyclopedic Poetry School’10th Anniversary Celebration Series) was published in 2017. 

His works has been translated into English, Italian and Spanish, and published in magazine abroad including La Macchina Sognante (Italy) and Buenos Aires Poetry (Argentina).

诗人，长居新泽西，威廉帕特森大学创意写作教授。近期由Ekstasis Editions（出版社）出版第十五部诗集《赤裸的辩护》。诗歌在百余种刊物上发表。最近一部译著是与Mahmood Karimi-Hakak合译的《爱我甚于他者：Iraj Mirza诗选》（2014年、Cross-Cultural Communications出版）。译作散见《The Su Journal》《Basalt》 、《国际视界》、《世界诗刊》、《亚特兰大评论》等。评论及访谈见《巴黎圣母院评论》、《波斯文化遗产》、《Gargoyle》、《南方人文评论》、《帕特森文学评论》、《Ascent》、《佛罗里达英语文学》、《第七采石场》及《质数》杂志。曾因在印度访学及旅行获得“国家基金”人文学科津贴及两次富布赖特海斯奖金。2007年，当选唯爱社（美国规模最大、历史最悠久的跨宗教和平正义组织）赞助的驻伊朗友好代表团成员。2010年夏，获得国家亚洲教学财团主办的中国及日本的实地调研名额。四次荣获印度诗歌节代表诗人。2016年荣获罗马尼亚及意大利举办的米哈伊·爱明内斯库国际诗歌节代表诗人。曾参加在意大利佩扎罗举办的佩扎罗国际诗歌节，西昌邛海·“丝绸之路”国际诗歌周，科索沃Ethnofest诗歌节等。

Bill Wolak is a poet who lives in New Jersey and teaches Creative Writing at William Paterson University. He has just published his fifteenth book of poetry entitled The Nakedness Defense with Ekstasis Editions. His poetry has appeared in over a hundred magazines. His most recent translation with Mahmood Karimi-Hakak, Love Me More Than the Others: Selected Poetry of Iraj Mirza, was published by Cross-Cultural Communications in 2014. His translations have appeared in such magazines as The Sufi Journal, Basalt, Visions International, World Poetry Journal, and Atlanta Review. His critical work and interviews have appeared in Notre Dame Review, Persian Heritage Magazine, Gargoyle, Southern Humanities Review, and Prime Numbers Magazine.
Mr. Wolak has been awarded several National Endowment for the Humanities scholarships and two Fulbright-Hays scholarships to study and travel in India. In 2007, he was selected to participate in a Friendship Delegation to Iran sponsored by the Fellowship of Reconciliation, America’s largest and oldest interfaith peace and justice organization. During the Summer of 2010, Mr. Wolak was awarded a Field Study Opportunity in China and Japan by the National Consortium for Teaching about Asia. He was selected to be a featured poet at festivals in India five times: at the 2011 Kritya International Poetry Festival in Nagpur, at the 2013 Hyderabad Literary Festival, at the Tarjuma 2013: Festival of Translators in Ahmedabad, at the 2014 Hyderabad Literary Festival, and at the 2017 Goa Arts and Literary Festival. Recently, he was a featured poet at The Mihai Eminescu International Poetry Festival in Craiova, Romania; Europa in versi, Lake Como, Italy; The Pesaro International Poetry Festival, Pesaro, Italy, The Xichang-Qionghai Silk Road International Poetry Week, Xichang, China, The Ethnofest, Pristina, Kosovo, and the Chengdu International Poetry Week, Chengdu, China.

遥不可及的幽暗岩腔，朦胧难辨的考古坑，又或是博物馆展柜的温控抽屉里，突然闪现出海上岩画的轮廓。它们仿佛一种真空，穿透振翅有声的影丛与我们对话。仿佛屏息的夜色由细语开始集腋成裘，酝酿出一场狂暴的台风。滞积的能量骤然迸发，仿佛由黑暗隧道内部挽弓搭箭射向光明。暗夜由此变得明晰，仿佛墨汁找到了它内部叙述的声音。

海上的岩画总是遥遥领先于观者的理解力。如果要以分类学为它们编纂索引，可从抽象几何学、动物符号学一直延伸到仿真人工智能的范畴。它们提出那些以地下的隐秘岩洞、深植于荒野间兀出地面的巨石、或远古祭祀青铜器为背景的视觉可能。他的岩画宛如迷幻的魔咒，戏谑、捉弄观者的智力并将其远远抛在身后。这些作品被永恒的幽暗语境衬托得格外耀眼，盘旋在世界文化觉知的上空，仿佛应许之词，以一根亮线牵引着你穿越那九曲回肠的迷宫。 

画布上，一种神秘向你散发着它的辉光。这让你挣扎，试图去理解这一份极具魅惑的邀约。时光在此静止。万物瞬间归宗为视觉，你发现自己阅读的是一套献给从未被谛听与理解过的崭新旋律的标记法。一些事物在时间轴上挪移地更近了，比那些充塞牛仔裤兜的遗忘之物更近，比旋转着穿过你身体边界的暗物质更近，比混沌更亲密无间更近，比不可命名的万物更近。

Closer Than the Unnamable: Hai Shang’s Petroglyphs

Out of the darkness of an inaccessible cavern, some obscure archeological dig, or the temperature-controlled draw of a museum case, the petroglyphs of Hai Shang appear. It’s as if the void is speaking through the fluttering of shadows. It’s as if the night held its breath and, little by little, begins to whisper in the pandemonium of a typhoon. Pent up energy is suddenly released; from the inside of a dark tunnel, the bowstring releases an arrow into the light. Darkness becomes articulate, the very ink finds a voice.

These petroglyphs are dangled always just beyond comprehension. The taxonomy for them ranges from abstract geometrical to zoomorphic to anthropomorphic. These petroglyphs suggest something that might become visible on an underground cave wall, a rock outcropping deep in the wilderness, or some ancient ceremonial bronze object. These petroglyphs cast a spell of bewilderment in which the intellect is tricked, deceived, outdistanced. These petroglyphs, foregrounded by their insistent darkness, hover over the world like a promise as the thread that has guided you this far into the labyrinth snaps.

A mystery winks at you from the canvas. You struggle to understand such an excessively seductive offer. Time halts. Everything becomes seeing only. You’re reading the notation for an unheard, incomprehensible music. Something moves closer than the oblivion stuffed against the tight crotch-seam of your jeans; closer than the dark matter swirling through you; closer and more intimate than chaos; closer than the unnamable.

海上先生与《十二谛》

画展现场

唯有内视功能的太阳穴才能呈现这种:一变二、二变四的万花筒式的卵变景象。我惊奇比尔·沃拉克这些图式提供给视觉以爱的信息。然而，一般性的解读还不可能直达关于“爱”、关于"性"、关于“人的灵魂“喜悦之象。它有几层由图式设置的“谜面”。这些图式及图案首先给人的视觉以“万花筒式”的裂变，但是它们的源头却在万物共享的细胞卵巢里……

比尔·沃拉克有他特殊的的闭目蓄神的冥想动力，所以在他的画面上，我发现最为基本的元素是”爱”。但是，仅仅这个“爱”字，难以道破它所承载的内涵：爱是什么，或者我们更需要生物学的解剖。人类将所有的，包括雌雄激素在内的热情激荡统称为“爱”，于是，我们有太多的不可释义性的混沌。

比尔沃拉克的绘画所表达的意境，它同样启蒙了我的内视练习。它是人的冥想内存，也是激荡过后的静谧的精种原图(原貌),与生俱在的许许多粗心者忽略的情绪底纹......

2020年元月5日海上于返程途中

Robots

访谈：海上 VS 比尔·沃拉克

互译：殷晓媛

Q1: 你对绘画、摄影都有相当高的认知水准，而且我观察到你的画面里常有女人体；而且是粗线条的轮廓……这些才艺融入诗歌时，是够构成了其内核？能否分别叙说一下绘画、摄影以及诗歌语言的表达式？

Q1: Your explorative proficiency has been proved not only on poetry but also in collage art and photography, including human body art, in which you have shown impressive skills in depicting the primordial beauty of human structures with post-mordern modelling ideas.  Have those ideas in art also played a role in your poetry? Could you describe the different "formulas" for creating valuable works in collage art, photography and poetry?

Bill Wolak: 

The representation body is one focus of all of the works that I create. In collage, in photography, and in poetry, you will find descriptions of those aspects of the loving body that I find intriguing. Here’s an example in poetry: “Love opens the hands for kindness, / and kindness is a debt / you never tire of repaying.” Here the open human hands represent the body and its debt of kindness to others.

To begin a collage, I select some sources—either color or black and white. If I’m using  magazines or prints or old books, I cut out some images or parts of images that interest me. Then I start working on a background or some other sort of chance construction. Much is left to fleeting insights. These are tiny miracles of inspiration. Depending on whether I’m using scissors and glue or digital images, each collage could take several hours. Sometimes it takes several days or even weeks to know if a collage is finished. Much depends on the kind of collage and the size. I’m working on new collages all the time. However, it’s impossible to say in advance how new work will develop. One can only hope for the enchantment of the unexpected. In photography, by contrast, the main focus is to capture an image by manipulating light. This requires a great deal of skill. Afterwards, the image can be infinitely transformed. Writing poetry is another matter entirely. I am always writing in journals. That material, sooner or later, gets combined into increasingly sophisticated networks of imagery and meaning.  It would be fair to say that my poetry tends toward the romantic, both in terms of its focus on relationships and nature.  I have a certain fondness for the love poem, probably because some of my earliest influences were Leonard Cohen and Paul Eluard.  In general, I would describe my poetry as a mixture of surrealism and sufism.

比尔·沃拉克：

人体表现形式是我所创作的所有体裁作品的重要聚焦点之一。无论拼贴画、摄影或诗歌中，您都可以看到我在其中呈现这些迷人躯体的方方面面——人体之美是令人沉醉的。我曾在诗中写道：“爱敞开悲悯的双手/悲悯是无法清偿/又永生不倦的债务”。人类敞开的双手是一种符号，象征着人的躯体与对他者的善意。

创作拼贴画，首先我需要选取素材——这取决于创作标的是彩色还是黑白模式，如果素材库是杂志、印刷品或旧书，我会剪切一些有趣的图像或其中的元素备用。下一步是绘制背景图像，或进行其它形式的随机构图。有许多转瞬即逝的直觉可以抓住，那都是灵感所创造的细小奇迹。有时会使用剪刀胶水，而有时则是纯数码创作，每一幅其过程都会持续数小时，但有时候需要等上数天甚至数周去判断这件作品是否算真正“完成”了。这取决于拼贴画的子分类和尺寸。我一直都在探索它们的新模式。但没有人能预测一件新作品的效果，只能期待出人意料的魔力去促成它！而摄影恰好相反，主要聚焦点在于调试布光效果，以捕捉心仪的画面。这在技巧方面要求极高。在后期，图像又可以通过无限多环节进行变形。而诗歌创作，与这二者又截然不同。我经常在刊物内页上打草稿。这的底稿材料就让整件事逐渐演变成了画面与意义的交织的繁复网络。可以说我的诗歌风格倾向于浪漫主义，无论是遣词造句，还是其聚焦于人类关系与自然的本质都如此。我对于爱情诗有一种个人喜好，也许是早期受了Leonard Cohen和Paul Eluard影响。总体来说，我认为我的诗歌是超现实主义和苏菲主义的一种耦合物。

Q2：英国作家雅可布·布洛诺夫斯基在《人之上升》一书中提到“在我们的前方，是最终将使艺术的表现和科学的解释融为一体的人类的自我认识。”你认为“百科诗派”与这一观点是否有契合之处？请详细说说你的观点。

Q2：In "The Ascent of Man", Jacob Bronowksi said "The discoveries of science, the works of art are explorations — more, are explosions, of a hidden likeness. The discoverer or the artist presents in them two aspects of nature and fuses them into one" and "self-knowledge, at last bringing together the experience of the arts and the explanations of science, waits ahead of us". Do you think there is something in common between his ethos and the theories of Encyclopedic Poetry School? And how do you preferably describe their relation?

Bill Wolak: 

I have read Bronowski, and I agree that there is a certain confluence between art, here as represented as the Encyclopedic Poetry School, and science. In general, like Charles Olsen and the Beat poets who come after him such as Allen Ginsburg, Michael McClure, and Gary Snyder, one part of American poetry tends to see all things as interrelated—politics, the environment, global warming, aesthetics, art, poetry, love, and science. A case in point would be Bern Porter, whose seminal book I’ve Left, which documents the various mixtures of poetry, science, and art, had a huge impact on me. Bern Porter, himself, was a physicist, a poet, and an art gallery owner, so he combined all of these tendencies. He also published poetry books.

比尔·沃拉克：

是的我读过布洛诺夫斯基的作品，的确，他的观念对于艺术和科学有相当的影响，比如百科诗派文本所呈现出的这样的艺术效果。总体说来，例如黑山派查尔斯·奥尔森（Charles Olson）以及继其之后以艾伦·金斯堡为代表的的“垮掉派”，还有迈克尔·麦克卢尔（Michael McClure）、加里·斯奈德(Gary Snyder)等——美国诗坛有相当一部分人认为所有知识领域应当形成交互——政治、环境、全球变暖、美学、艺术、诗歌、爱情、诗歌。一个很有代表性的人物是伯尔尼·波特（Bern Porter）, 他的著作《我走了》便是诗歌、科学、艺术融合的实例，这部书对我影响很大。伯尔尼·波特本身是物理学家诗人，也是画廊主人， 因此得以将这些职业优势结合起来。他曾出过好几部诗集。

Q3： 在你的诗歌作品中，我读到最多的就对“爱”的抒情，仿佛文字背后总有一个倩影浮现，在你的人生途中，是否真有一场隐秘的故事，在不暴露个人隐私的前提下，能否谈谈？有将它们创作为长诗的想法吗，你对长诗（史诗）有什么看法？

Q3：In your poems there seems to be a specific "figure" like a thread through all your works. If you do not mind, could you talk about if the romance is fictional or real experience, and how did it inspired you to write your perpetually-emerging series of love poems? Have you ever considered writing volumes of long poem about it?

Bill Wolak:  

I started dabbling with writing poetry as a teenager looking for ways to explore my obsessions, desires, and anger.  It was the sixties, and I bought a guitar and tried my hand at writing song lyrics.  I literally came to poetry with the expectation that it could improve my songwriting abilities.  Music, in those days, was my entire world, and I was under the spell of Leonard Cohen, Judy Collins, Joni Mitchell, and The Incredible String Band.  After taking a summer creative writing class, I discovered what poetry could do, and I never returned to lyrics.  I quickly discovered poets who wrote more challenging works than the music to which I was listening. So my path to poetry began, more or less, with the Beats.  McClure’s Dark Brown and his Meat Science Essays along with Ginsberg’s poems like “Who To Be Kind To” astonished me with their daring possibilities of personal experience in poetry. Through the Beats, I discovered Philip Lamantia, Bob Kaufman, Lenore Kandel, and little by little, the French Surrealists became irresistible to me.  Paul Eluard, André Breton, Joyce Mansour, and Robert Desnos transformed my notion of what a poem could be. As Paul Eluard says in one of his poems, “I love you for all of the women I have not loved.” So, on could say, that the central figure in my poetry is the woman desired, the loved woman whose beauty and mindfulness opens up the possibilities of poetry. Love is a risk, a defiance of all obstacles, a desire to transcend the mundane miserablism of consumer culture. Love, therefore, is a great giving, like the tradition of potlatching. My poetry is a record of lived experience, there is nothing fictional about it. Poetry is always heightened experience. Unlike the mere descriptions of prose, poetry intensifies with imagery and music the central concerns of life. For me, love—with all of its joys and difficulties—has been and remains the central focus of my writing.

比尔·沃拉克：

我十多岁就开始涉足诗歌了。那时候的我，试图探索自己的执念、欲望和愤怒。那是早在60年代，我买了一把吉他并开始创作歌词。我接触诗的初衷是因为它们对我的歌词创作有所助益。在那个时代，音乐便是我的全世界，而我对Leonard Cohen, Judy Collins, Joni Mitchell以及The Incredible String Band等非常痴迷。在参加完创意写作夏训后，我发现诗歌的潜能远大于歌词，于是我决然放弃了写歌。我很快发现，诗人们早已创作出诸多远比我所听过的任何歌曲更富有挑战性的文本，因此我开启了自己的诗歌之旅——从阅读“垮掉派”、麦克卢尔的《深棕》《肉食科学论集》以及金斯堡的《我该与谁为善》 等一系列诗歌。《我该与谁为善》一书充满了大胆的个人精神之旅，令人震撼。通过“垮掉派”我又发现了Philip Lamantia, Bob Kaufman, Lenore Kandel等诗人作品，以及魅力无穷的法国超现实主义诗人们，包括Paul Eluard, André Breton, Joyce Mansour和Robert Desnos......他们完全颠覆了我心目中对于“诗”的定义。正如Paul Eluard在一首诗中所言，“我为那些我不曾爱过的女人而爱你。”可以说，我所创作诗歌的中心意象是一个魅力万千的女人，一个被爱着的女人，她的美与智慧向诗歌的所有可能的维度开放。爱本身就是一种冒险，对一切障碍的反抗，一种将消费文化下的尘世悲苦进行升华的欲望。因而，爱是一种伟大的馈赠，就像印第安部落的冬日盛宴。我的诗是一种真实的人生体验，并非虚构。诗歌从来是经验的升华。与散文的纯描摹不同，诗歌通过意象与音乐感将人生的核心事物激烈化，对我而言，爱，它的喜悦与困境，一直是，并且会继续是我写作的中心点。

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