UniDesignLab专访 | JERDE副总裁Danny Ha：关注用户体验的设计更有价值
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为了更高效地服务中国市场，今年9月起，美国捷得设计事务所设计主创陆续抵达中国开展工作。2020年11月，JERDE副总裁、资深设计主创Danny Ha开启中国之行，并在JERDE上海办公室开展为期2个月的工作，为JERDE中国市场带来经典的设计DNA，将JERDE体验性设计和场所创造的理念带给中国团队。
2020年12月9日，JERDE副总裁、资深设计主创DannyHa出席2020建筑表皮设计与应用国际大会，并发表了“以人为本的城市规划设计”主题演讲，结合4个案例，分享了JERDE”不止于设计，我们创造体验”；“设计以人为本，人以项目为尊”等设计理念。
【UniDesignLab】对JERDE副总裁&设计主创DannyHa先生进行了深度专访，回顾其在JERDE的设计之路，并探寻疫情过后商业建筑的未来走向。
Danny出生于韩国首尔，精通英语、韩语，在事务所国际项目上尤为重要，也是洛杉矶设计团队与国际业主之间的沟通桥梁。自2002年加入JERDE以来，他已经在众多项目上施展所长，其设计的项目有：首尔市政府、三星公司和建国大学、MBC、GS E&C、 SK建筑、大宇汽车等。
01
关于JERDE
UniDesignLab: 作为国际知名的建筑设计事务所，捷得一直坚持以人为为本的设计理念,是否可以谈谈您对这一理念的理解以及事务所内设计团队的工作方式？
As an internationally renowned architecture design firm, JERDE has always adhered to a human-oriented design concept. Could you please tell us about your understanding and the corresponding design team work methods?
Danny: 捷得主张 “体验创造不同” ，但体验的类型多种多样，捷得应该如何抉择并创造不同呢？就我个人而言， “不同” 有两层含义。其中一层就是字面上的意思，表示“不一样” ；另一种是更深层次的，即 “是什么造成了这些不同？” 。比如蓝色和红色是不同的，那是什么原因造成了他们不同呢？为什么这些原因能使它们不同？
In JERDE, we always say that experience makes the difference, and there are many different kinds of experiences. Then, how does JERDE look for something different? In my view, the word “difference” has two distinct meanings. On one side, it only refers to our common concept of “something different”. On the other hand, it has more profound significance: What makes “difference”, to be different? For example, red and blue are different, but what makes them different? Why do certain things, make them different?
日本难波公园|Namba Parks © JERDE
邻近地铁的客流量增加，屋顶公园降低大阪的热岛效应
很多时候，建筑师更注重的是建筑的外观是否美观，使用的材料是否高级。当然，我们总是想让设计显得与众不同，但当在设计时加入了“用户体验”这一考虑因素，我们的设计就需要有所改变，这也将变成一个挑战。设想一下，什么样的建筑才能让你愿意在同一天的不同时间段多次光顾呢？类似这样的思考会使设计更加完美。可以在脑海中构想一下人们对建筑空间的体验，他们会感受到舒适和愉悦吗？如果答案是否定的，那我们的建筑设计仅仅就是一个还不错的“空壳”。
On many occasions, architects tend to focus a lot on how a building looks – for instance, the focus on wonderful facades, on great materials, amongst many things. Of course, we always want to achieve something “different”. However, when we put people into consideration, it changes many things – a whole new level of things to consider. It indeed challenges you. What would a space look like when someone walking and experiencing at different time of the day? So, I believe this way of thinking makes a project richer. We always draw sections and imagine what people would experience when they are inside. Would they feel comfortable and excited? If not, then it’s just a nice piece of building.
在我的工作室里，我与另外十个同事组成了一个设计小组，我们会经常交换彼此的想法，并且我们认为这样的合作很重要。这与我们在学校的经历类似，就像教授会和学生一起工作，相互交流。这样的工作方式会让我们的项目更加有趣，拥有独特的竞争优势。因此，我们也亲切地将工作室称为“协同设计工作室”。
In my studio, I am currently working with ten people in one design team. We always exchange ideas, and we value this kind of collaboration. It is similar to what we would experience in school – professors and students are closely exchanging ideas and working together. I believe these exchanges make projects more interesting and eventually unique in their own right. For this reason, we call our studio a “collaborative design studio”.
02
Danny的个人分享
UniDesignLab: 作为一名韩裔设计师，这对您的职业有哪些方面的帮助呢？家乡文化或者亚洲文化是否给您带来一些设计上的灵感？在亚洲市场做项目负责人又是一种什么样的体验呢？
As a designer with a South Korean background, how does this identity help you in your career? Does the South Korean culture or Asian culture bring you some design inspiration? What kind of experience is it like to be a project leader in the Asian market?
Danny: 事实上，我17岁的时候就跟随父母搬到了洛杉矶。但其实在那个年龄段我已经对韩国文化有所了解，并且也意识到了文化的重要性。现在，我既是美国人又是韩国人，所以可以从多种角度去看待和理解不同的文化。这种对多元文化的理解能力使我在设计中可以运用的元素更加丰富，能够将不同的文化融合在同一设计中。个人认为，这更有助于传递设计的深度。
My whole family moved to Los Angeles when I was only 17 years old. One of the good things are: at this age, I am already aware of the South Korean culture as well as understand how important this is. Now, I am Korean-American, and this gives me another perspective and sensibility to appreciate different cultures. It provides me with a broader pallet of design tools in the area of cultural projects. I personally think it provides depth to the unique design.
一般来说，韩国文化更加强调城市化。但我感到现在的年轻人更想要用一种独特的方式来证明自己，并且愿意用这种独特的方式来展示自己。我真的很高兴看到这种变化。
The South Korean culture in general tends to be more of urban setting. Now, however, I sense that the new generation wants to identify themselves in a unique way and willing to express themselves in this manner. I personally enjoy seeing this evolution of the South Korean culture.
首尔Mecenatpolis综合体|Mecenatpolis © JERDE
流动性的步行街购物体验，激发社区活力
提供动感十足又不失首尔传统文化的综合步行区域的城市公园
捷得在韩国做的很多项目我都有参与其中。韩国的客户总是邀请我们做一些更有挑战性的事情，这可能是因为我们在首尔的项目多且密集（几乎每两个地铁站的距离就有一个捷得的项目）。在中国市场情况也是类似的，客户总是希望能做出比难波公园更好的设计。在这个竞争激烈的全球环境中，客户的要求也在不断提高。
JERDE have many projects in Korea, and I have always been involved. South Korean clients always invite us to do something more challenging. I believe this is because we have numerous projects in Seoul and they are all very dense – for example, within the distance of two subway stations, we have another project designed by JERDE. When I am in China, it is also the same. Clients always look for a design that is better than Namba Parks. In this competitive global environment, most of the clients are also increasing their expectations and demand more.
UniDesignLab: 在很多项目中，您的身份不仅是主创设计师，同时也是首席联络人，您如何看待这两个不同的身份？您认为沟通能力较好的设计师会具有什么优势？
In many projects, you are not only the chief designer, but also the chief contact person for many projects. What do you think of these two different identities? What do you think are the advantages of designers with better communication skills?
Danny: 我们通常会说设计师 “身兼数职” 。因为他们可以是设计师，是工程师，也可以是谈判者。作为设计师，我总是在寻找独特的灵感，我的头脑中有太多的创意和想法。但是当我面对客户的时候，该如何以一种愉快的方式向客户阐明这些灵感并获得他们的认可呢？出于这个原因，我们总是依靠图表、绘画、模型等交流工具来帮助客户理解提案。有时候设计是非常主观的，例如人们会说：“我喜欢这个，但我不喜欢那个” 。但是当你理解了设计师想表达的故事，你可能会改变你的想法，会更开放地接受这些想法。
In English, we say people wearing different hats, which means, sometimes you wear the designer's hat, and sometimes you wear builder’s hat. On many occasions, you also wear the negotiator's hat.
Since there are so much in my thinking, as a designer, I always seek for unique inspirations. And, more importantly, how do we present these inspirations in a convincing way to clients?
For this reason, we always rely on communication tools like diagrams, drawings, models, and so forth, to help clients understand our design intent. Sometimes the design can be very subjective. For example, I prefer this one, but I'm not too fond of the other one. However, when you hear someone's compelling story, you are willing to change your mind, and people will be more open to these ideas.
日本北九州滨河走廊| RiverWalk Kitakyushu © JERDE
是一座高雅和流行艺术的中心
为日本北九州市树立了新的文化符号
日本北九州滨河走廊就是一个很好的例子。我们在设计中运用的色彩灵感来自于日本的传统文化，其中，黄色在日本文化中并不是那么鼓舞人心。但我们告诉客户，这不仅仅是简单的黄色，这象征着丰收和收获。之后，我们与客户对黄色达成了一致意见。希望这个真实的经历能够回答设计师沟通能力重要性的这个问题。
A good example of this is the Kitakyushu project. We designed a palette consisting of multiple colors which were inspired by different parts of Japan. Among one of them is the color yellow. And yellow color within the design review board was not favored. So we told the clients that it is indeed not a simple yellow color. It is a harvest color. After presented this way, they agreed upon the"yellow" color. I hope this real-life experience answered this question about the importance of designer's communication ability.
UniDesignLab: 自从加入公司以来，您已经在捷得工作了19年，从您个人的角度来看，在捷得工作是一种怎样的体验呢？
Since joining JERDE, you already spend 19 years in JERDE, what is the experience of working in JERDE from your personal opinion?
Danny: 当我刚毕业的时候，我打算去捷得获得一些工作经验(大约两年)，然后再去其他工作室体验一些不一样的东西。然而，在捷得工作期间，我所参与的项目被投入建设。如果你对一个设计项目投入了巨大的精力和热情，当你亲眼看到这个项目变成现实并被人们使用和享受时，你会有更大的动力和激情继续努力工作。这也是我至今仍然留在捷得工作的原因。
When I graduated and wanted to find a job, I planned to go to JERDE to get some working experiences (around two years) and then go to another office to experience something different. However, during my time at JERDE, the projects I was working on were getting built. The idea of putting so much energy and passion during the whole design process, and seeing the project being realized and people using and enjoying the spaces are motivating factors that push me to do more and encourage me to dedicate myself to JERDE.
工作时的Danny © JERDE
19年过去了，我很荣幸我还留在捷得工作。当然，商业建筑是具有挑战性的。我们的客户都是开发商，他们总是更好胜。但挑战与机遇并存。所以当我们与开发商合作时，会投入所有的设计师资源。
After 19 years, I am still here, and I am very happy. Of course, commercial architectures are challenging. Majority of our clients are all developers, and their demands could be challenging and many times we turn those constraints into opportunities as we put all of our resources together to collaborate with our clients.
从另一个角度来看，捷得给了我很多与客户交流和沟通的机会。这对设计师来说是非常重要的。
From another point of view, I will say that JERDE gives me numerous opportunities to be able to connect and have conversations with clients – a significant and crucial role for (all) designers.
03
疫情之后，商业建筑的未来走向
UniDesignLab: 您觉得这次疫情为商业空间的设计带来了一些新的理念和设计灵感吗？或者有什么负面的影响吗？
Does the COVID-19 bring any new ideas or new design concepts to the creation of commercial space?
Danny: 这次疫情确实造成了一些影响。因为对于商业空间来说，客户是最核心的部分，但因为疫情，人们不能外出旅游和聚会，减少了对空间的使用。
The COVID-19 clearly affects so many people and communities. Particularly, they impact commercial/public spaces and users are affected the most which is the most important part. And due to the COVID-19, we cannot travel, meet and use those spaces.
对我来说，疫情期间最大的挑战是在足不出户的日子里，对于工作和生活我没有一个明确的界限。但是疫情的爆发使人们比平时更加思念彼此。疫情带来的不仅仅是挑战，还有机遇——这会激励我们去探索新的设计方式来加强人与人之间的联系。我们希望，疫情结束后，人们之间的互动会比以前更加频繁。因此，我们将这次疫情视为新的设计契机。
For me, one of the most challenging things are that I do not have a clear boundary between working and living condition during the lockdown period. I imagine that due to COVID-19, people miss each other more compared to normal time. Yet, COVID-19 brings us challenges in our tasks, because it motivates us to design new ways of connecting and bringing people together. Hopefully, when the COVID-19 is over, people will engage with each other more than before. For this reason, we should consider COVID-19 as an great opportunity to reconsider the importance of public space.
日本博多运河城|Canal City © JERDE
一个废弃的工业码头，成了充满活力的城市地标
UniDesignLab: 这次疫情让消费者养成了线上消费的习惯，您认为网上购物会对实体商业空间造成影响吗？
The COVID-19 has promoted a lot of online consumption and made consumers develop the habit of online shopping. Do you think online shopping will affect the physical business space?
Danny: 在美国有亚马逊，在中国有淘宝。网上购物是一种很好的购物体验，但它永远不能取代实体的商业空间。
In America, we have Amazon, and in China, we have Taobao. Online shopping is one way to shop, but it can never replace the physical commercial space(s).
根据我们的实践经验，疫情前餐厅、咖啡馆等场所的零售额只能达到25%左右，但疫情过后这一比例提高到了40%。这是用户真实需求的反映。人们希望能够进行当面的沟通和交流，这是社会生活中不可或缺的一部分。当线上消费已经成为趋势的时候，人们依然喜欢在实体店购物，因为这样可以触摸到真实的商品，感受朋友的陪伴。这是两种完全不同的购物体验。
From our practice experience, retail functions such as restaurants, cafés and others constituted only 25 per cent of the overall programme. Currently, this number has increased to around 40 per cent for some commercial projects, and this shows the increasing demands of users. For dining experience, we also find that people still want to go out and meet with each other – and that is an integral part of people’s daily life. While online shopping is trendy, people still want to shop in retail stores, and this includes to touch and feel the real products, to talk and share a unique experience with friends. These two modes of shopping provide different kinds of experiences for users.
莫斯科Kashirskaya广场|Kashirskaya Plaza © JERDE
创造一个舒适休闲的，结合当地特有环境的场所
在捷得的项目中我们设计了灵活区域，相较于建造一堵坚实的围墙，我们更喜欢设计一个开放的平台。这是一种创造性的、能使用户参与到项目设计中的方式。我们不能告诉人们说“不要再去网上购物了”，他们已经习惯了这种生活方式。因此，我们不会正面对抗，而是会为他们提供一个空间，让他们可以在这里轻松愉悦的交流，氛围的创造更加重要。
In JERDE’s project, we talked about flexible zones. For instance, instead of creating a wall, we always like to design more of an open format layout. We think it is more creative way to bring people to the project by accommodating various needs of tenants and user oriented spaces. We can’t tell people: ‘don’t buy stuff online’ – they are already used to doing that. Consequently, rather than fighting it, we provide a program that invite people to come and stay longer and come again with their family and friends. Creating inviting and community oriented atmosphere is sometimes more important.
04
给还没工作的读者一些建议
UniDesignLab: 捷得事务所筛选员工的准则是什么？具有什么特质的员工会更受青睐？
What are the criteria used by JERDE to select employees? What kind of qualities do you want employees to have?
Danny: 会从很多方面来进行考虑，比如我们会选择一个具有5年工作经验的人，但我们也会选择刚毕业的学生。但最终都会问应聘者的一个问题是“你为什么选择捷得？” 如果应聘者对捷得没有自己的了解和认识，我们很难聘用他/她。
We look for people with multi disciplinary backgrounds when we consider. Sometimes we need the type of person who has five years of experience. On other occasions, we look for fresh graduates. In the end, however, we always ask the interviewees for one question: Why JERDE? We are looking for people who cancontinue to carry our legacy projects.
对于我来说，作为项目设计师，最重要的是团队精神。如果一个才华横溢的设计师不能很好的与其他人沟通合作，那么即使他/她再优秀也没有意义。所以我们看重的是应聘者的团队合作能力。
As a design principal, I believe one of the essential elements is to build team spirit. There are many talented students and designers, but if they cannot work with other people, then it does not matter how talented they are. What I am looking for is the interviewees’ ability to work in a team.
另一个关键的素质是“独立思考能力”。如果你在向客户展示图纸的时候只是说: “请看这张美丽的设计图” 是远远不够的。我们希望设计师能讲出每张设计图纸背后的故事，这也是希望设计师能独立思考的原因。沟通并不是一件简单的事情，这其中涵盖了许多方面。但这并不意味着你需要通过一场伟大的演讲或者复杂的图像来呈现你的设计，而是需要严密的逻辑思维能力和清晰流畅的语言表达能力。
当然，我们非常欢迎学生前来实习和应聘。
Another key quality is ‘independent thinking ability’. If you present to the client and you say, “Please look at this beautiful elevation drawing”,this is not enough. We want to have a story. This is why I want designers to think. Communication skill is not linear. It comprises of many various layers. However, it does not mean that you need to present your work with a great speech or complex images. Logical thinking and be able to present clearly what you have studied is the most valuable tool. Of course, we always welcome to review students’resumes (with qualities i have described above).
设计师手稿 © JERDE
UniDesignLab: 作为国际事务所的主创设计师，能否给建筑设计专业的学生一些建议？
As the chief designer of an international firm, can you give some advice to students in the architectural design major?
Danny:“design” 这个词实际上分为 “de” 和 “sign” 两部分, 这是我在建筑学院学到的第一件事。其中“sign” 是能够直接被看见和理解的东西，这不是我们的工作重点。作为建筑设计师，我们的任务是从不同的角度呈现事物，这是需要创造力的，需要做出一些与众不同的东西。作为一名建筑设计师，应该从骨子里坚持对设计的热爱，这样我们才会在工作中会获得很多乐趣。
The first thing I learned when I was in the architecture school is the word“design” is actually “de-sign”. “Sign”is something you see, and is something you already know, we often don’t think too much about them. As architects, our responsibility is to present something from different perspectives. It is about creativity, and “something different”, should be always in our mind. Design should be something in your DNA, and together with passion, you will have fun in the process of designing.
另一个建议是要注重设计目的。当我在建筑学院读书的时候，我的导师经常会问我每一个作品的设计目的是什么。对我来说，应该关注客户体验，否则你所设计的就仅仅是一个外壳。比如很多学生都喜欢设计有趣的建筑外观，这是正确的，但同时请不要忘记去思考用户如何与这种设计进行“互动”。
Another part is about your 'design intent'. I remember when I was in architecture school, my instructor would always ask me: What is your design intent? For me, I think we should always consider peoples' experiences – otherwise, you are only designing a "shell". For example, I see many students designing interesting facades. Please do it, this is not wrong, but, do not forget to think how users will use and benefit from these spaces in-between.
如果不考虑用户体验，那这些建筑就仅仅是一个雕塑。因此我坚持认为，如果我们关注用户体验感受，客户也会喜爱我们的设计。希望同学们能从中获得启发。
I think without users, architecture is only a sculpture. I always say: When we take care of the people, the people will take care of the projects. I hope students can benefit from this point.
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