哈农库特访谈丨“我所探寻的始终是作曲家为什么要这样写”
An Interview With Nikolaus Harnoncourt
哈农库特访谈
LONDON, 19 November 2000 - Future archaeologists of the classical record industry will trace its collapse to the deaths, a year apart, of Herbert von Karajan and Leonard Bernstein. For half a lifetime, these two busy batons monopolised orchestral output, saturating the racks with self-repetitions. When they died, a decade ago, the public refused to recognise the next pharoahs and precipitated industrial wipeout.
2000年11月19日，伦敦—未来的古典唱片行业业的考古学家们将把行业的衰败追溯到赫伯特·凡·卡拉扬和伦纳德·伯恩斯坦两人一年之间相继去世。这两位忙碌的指挥家在世时用大半辈子的时间几乎垄断了管弦乐团唱片的所有生产，唱片架上摆满了这些自我复刻品。当十年前他们去世的时候，公众们拒绝接受下一届新的“法老”，于是唱片录制业突然间陷入了崩溃。
No conductor since Karajan has achieved brand-name recognition on record - with one exception. is a Habsburg by blood, a descendant of Holy Roman emperors, who used to earn his crust as a back-row cellist in Vienna's second orchestra until he decided that he knew better than most maestros how classical music should sound.
自从卡拉扬之后，在唱片录制领域中没有一个指挥家获得过品牌认证。只有一个除外，尼古劳斯•哈农库特（Nikolaus Harnoncourt），一个神圣的罗马皇帝的后裔，继承了哈布斯堡王朝的血统，他通过在维也纳第二管弦乐团后排拉大提琴来养家糊口，直到有一天他觉得自己已经比顶级大师更加懂得古典音乐原本听起来如何。
In 1957, with his violinist wife, Alice, Harnoncourt formed Europe's first professional period-instrument group, the Concentus Musicus Wien. When his stark-pure Bach challenged conventional upholstery, he was banned from Salzburg on Karajan's orders.
1957年，哈农库特和他的小提琴家妻子艾丽斯一起组建了欧洲第一支专业的古典乐器演奏的乐团，维也纳音乐协奏团。当他的完全纯净的巴赫挑战到墨守成规的室内乐团时，在卡拉扬的命令下，他被禁止在萨尔茨堡演出。
Then, in 1992, Harnoncourt stormed the charts with a million-selling set of Beethoven symphonies. Contrary to his typecasting as an early-music aesthete, he conducted the full-blooded Chamber Orchestra of Europe on modern instruments in a refreshingly direct blend of historical awareness and contemporary zeitgeist.
然而，在1992年，哈农库特凭借贝多芬交响乐系列唱片的百万销量冲上了排行榜。相对于它的模式化，作为一个早期音乐的唯美主义者，他指挥了血统纯正的欧洲室内乐团，在现代乐器上奏出了融合着久远的历史意识和现代的时代精神的清爽率直的声音。
Offers came flooding in: a lifetime contract with Teldec, a New Year's Day concert with the Vienna Philharmonic. He made a belated Salzburg debut and formed solid ties with the Concertgebouw and Berlin Philharmonic. But he shunned America's Big Five, rejecting the routines of industrialised music-making.
签约如潮水般涌来：他与Teldic公司签订了一份终身合同，与维也纳爱乐乐团合作演奏新年音乐会。在姗姗迟来的萨尔茨堡首演后，他同阿姆斯特丹音乐厅和柏林爱乐缔结了稳定的合约。
"For me," says Harnoncourt, "to play together and in equal pitch is not a goal. For me, the rehearsal starts with the content of a piece - what it means, how it can change the listener. I was an orchestral musician for 17 years and what I missed was the question 'why?'. I wanted to know why Bruno Walter asked me to play like this . . . In those days, musicians were slaves, but my musicians are partners and they have to know about the conception. This is my way of working."
“对于我来说，”哈农库特说，“和这些乐团一起演奏并维持他们原有的高度不是我的目标。对我来说，排练从一部作品的内容开始——它意味着，我们要如何去改变听众。我是一位在管弦乐团工作了17年的音乐家，一直困扰着我的问题是‘为什么？’。我想要知道为什么布鲁诺·瓦尔特（Bruno Walter）要求我像这样演奏……在那些日子里，音乐家们就是一群苦役，但我的音乐家们，是我的合伙人，他们必须接受这个理念。这是我的工作方式。”
As one watches him in rehearsal, it becomes apparent that everything Harnoncourt does arises from the logic of a single phrase that he identifies as the heart of the work. Players in the Chamber Orchestra of Europe, most of whom are soloists and section leaders in Europe's premier orchestras, respond as much to his intellectual clarity as to his hesitant, ever-courteous instructions.
当我们在排练中观察哈农库特的时候，很显然能看出他做的每件事都围绕这他所认为是工作核心的一个乐段的逻辑展开。欧洲室内乐团的演奏者们，大部分是欧洲重要管弦乐团的独奏家和乐段领奏，这些乐手对他理智清晰的头脑以及谦恭而拘谨的指挥风格给予同样的回应。
"Maybe," he proposes, "I would ask you . . . could it be different in this passage? Might it work better this way?" Halting a Haydn symphony in mid-phrase, he says, "I would like to suggest something, which I would ask if you find tasteful, or not?"
“也许，”他建议说，“我会请教你……在这一乐段会是不同的吗？也许这样做效果会更好些？”音乐停在海顿奏鸣曲的半音阶上，他说，“我喜欢提一些建议，我会问你认为这样处理会更雅致呢？或是相反？”
In everything he does, by word or by gesture, Harnoncourt, 70, is the antithesis of the star conductor. His baton thrusts and rostrum stance are jerky, lacking choreographed grandeur. He abhors the dictatorship of the baton, harking back in horror to his playing days, when conductors ruled by fear.
然而70岁的哈农库特依靠语言和手势做的所有的事情，都是一个明星指挥应该做的截然相反。他的指挥棒和讲话的姿势是生硬的，缺乏精心设计的气势。当他回忆起他还在做演奏员时被指挥棒所支配的恐惧，如今的他痛恨指挥家的独裁专横。
"They used to order a musician to play his part alone," he relates, "and I have never seen anything less than terror when this happened. Two players, friends of mine, suffered a complete nervous breakdown and were dragged away to mental hospitals for electric-shock therapy. I know how dangerous it is to work with musicians. I would never be the cause of anything like that."
“他们经常要求一个音乐家单独演奏他的乐段，”他讲述道，“当这一切发生的时候，我从来不知道除了恐怖之外，还能有什么效果。曾经有两个演奏者，我的两个朋友，（在排练中）经历了彻底的神经质的崩溃，被送往中心医院进行电击治疗。我知道和音乐家一起工作有多么危险。我从不允许导致这样的事情发生。”
The more records he makes, the less this principled, thoughtful man seems attuned to our flippant, cliched age. Where current maestros, from Abbado to Rattle, are restricted to no more than three discs a year, Harnoncourt now has carte blanche to record whatever he likes. He is about to conclude a cycle of Mozart symphonies, all 41 of them, and is also working his way through Bruckner in Berlin, Vienna and Amsterdam. His discography runs to 250 items, more than any living conductor except the sometime studio specialist, Sir Neville Marriner.
他录制的唱片越多，这位有原则有思想的人做出的轻率、陈腐的做派就越少。当前的大师们，从阿巴多 （Abbado）到拉特尔（Rattle），一年内被限定录制不超过三张唱片。哈农库特现在能全权决定去录制任何他喜欢的音乐。他马上要签约录制一系列全部的41首莫扎特协奏曲，还会以他的工作方式在柏林、维也纳、阿姆斯特丹录制布鲁克纳。他的音乐作品集多达250条目，超越了所有活跃在各大音乐厅的指挥家们，某些工作专家，如内维尔•马里纳（Neville Marriner）先生除外。
He mistrusts the media, gives few interviews, disdains small talk. Yet he does not shirk awkward questions and frankly ascribes much of his outlook to the simmering legacy of growing up under the Nazis. "This was a time that left the greatest imprint on my life," he affirms.
他不信任媒体，很少接受访谈，也不屑于做一些小的谈话栏目。但他从来不逃避令人难堪的问题，并把这些坦率地归因于在纳粹当政下成长起来的后遗症。“这是在我生命中对我产生重大影响的时段。”
Born Nikolaus de la Fontaine und d'Harnoncourt-Unverzagt in Berlin in 1929, Harnoncourt returned as a boy to Graz, in southern Austria, where the family lived in an ancestral mansion. His father, an aristocrat of French descent, instilled Catholic and liberal views in his children; Nazism was anathema at home.
哈农库特1929年诞生于柏林的拉封丹。哈农库特还是孩子的时候曾经回到奥地利南部的的格拉茨，这个家族祖居的地方。他的父亲，是一个祖籍法国的贵族，在孩童时就被培养成一个具有开明思想的天主教徒。在家里，纳粹是让他们无比憎恶的。
"It left me with a great fear of not being in control of my life," says Harnoncourt. "When a doctor in 1936 gave me a reflex test and my leg jumped, I was horrified. He could do that, and I could not resist. As a result, my reflexes do not function any more." At 10 years old he was press-ganged into the junior Hitler Youth. "If you did not go twice a week, they picked you up and shaved your head." Early in 1945, the family fled to the Salzburg region where Nikolaus, smitten with music and theatre, took lessons with the cellist Paul Grummer and found a vocation.
“不能掌控我的生活让我感到非常恐惧，”哈农库特说，“1936年当一位医生要给我做一个本能测试，然后我的腿会跳起来，我非常恐惧。他不能那样做，我也不能忍受。结果，我的本能测试没有起到任何作用。”10岁时他被迫参加希特勒青年团，“如果你做不到每周去两次，他们就会把你揪出来剃光你的头。”1945年早些时候，一家人逃亡到萨尔茨堡地区，在那里，尼克劳斯深受音乐和戏剧的影响，并开始跟随大提琴手保罗•格鲁梅尔（Paul Grummer）上课，他发现了一个从此可以赖以谋生的职业。
It was Karajan who, in 1952, picked him from 40 aspirants to play in the Vienna Symphony Orchestra. At the audition, with Alice at the piano, he played the first movement of the Dvorak concerto. "I heard later that Karajan said immediately, 'That one - I like the way he sits down. I'll take him.' " They remained on friendly terms until Karajan took command of Berlin, Salzburg and the Vienna State Opera.
1952年，卡拉扬从40个有志加入维也纳协奏曲管弦乐团的选手中挑中了他。在试音时，艾丽斯为他伴奏，他演奏德沃夏克协奏曲的第一乐章。“后来我听说卡拉扬马上说了，‘那个人……我喜欢他坐下的样子。我要录用他’”他们保持着友好的关系，一直到卡拉扬全权控制了柏林爱乐、萨尔茨堡室内乐团和维也纳国家歌剧院。
"I still don't understand why our relations went bad," he says. "Perhaps it was due to his advisers. Karajan loved to perform Bach, but every time he produced a choral recording it would be compared to mine, not always favourably. I wrote to him once, and got a very nice reply, but it remained impossible for me to work in Salzburg."
“我至今仍不明白为什么我们的关系会急剧恶化，”他说，“也许这归因于他的顾问。卡拉扬喜欢演奏巴赫，但每次他的合唱录音与我的很类似，并不总能得到听众的赞赏。有一次我写信给他，并收到了友好的回复，但对我来说仍然不可能继续在萨尔茨堡工作下去。”
He studied conducting by playing for the world's best conductors. He names Carl Schuricht, Erich Kleiber, Karajan, Eugene Ormandy and Georg Szell as the most memorable - "but I will not tell you which I learned through loving them and which through hate".
他通过在世界上最棒的指挥手下演奏来学习指挥。他说卡尔苏利希，艾里克·克莱伯，卡拉扬，尤金·奥曼弟，格奥尔塞尔等这些大师们是最令他难忘的。“但我不会告诉你，我从哪位大师身上学到了爱，又从哪位大师身上学到了恨。”
All the while he pursued a private obsession, trawling antique shops for baroque instruments that could be put to use in his own ensemble. The fascination with early music began at college, where students were forbidden to play Mozart and were confined to Vivaldi and Corelli, "because they were supposed to be easy". Harnoncourt rebelled, arguing that, if Stradivarius and Amati were the greatest violin and cello makers, "how was it possible that they should have made such brilliant instruments for such dull music?"
他把所有的时间都致力于令自己痴迷的事情，比如搜集古乐器店的可以用来在他自己的乐团演奏的巴洛克乐器。他对于早期音乐的偏好开始于上大学时，在那儿学生们被迫演奏莫扎特，不允许演奏维瓦尔第和格雷利，“因为当时他们的音乐很容易被演奏”哈农库特提出抗议，争辩说，如果斯特拉迪瓦里和阿玛蒂是世界上最好的小提琴和弦乐器制造者，“他们怎么可能为这样单一枯燥的音乐制作出如此精彩绝伦的乐器？”
When he started the Concentus - without a pfennig of state subsidy, to this day - baroque music was played by amateurs and ascetics. "If the sound was poor, they preferred it," he laughs, "but, for me, an instrument was a tool, not a cult."
巴洛克音乐被业余爱好者和苦行者演奏，“如果它听上去很单调，他们就会更喜欢它”他笑道，“但是，对于我，乐器只是一件工具，而不是一种时尚。”
In 1971, he conducted his first opera, Monteverdi's Ritorno d'Ulisse in Vienna, and repeated it at La Scala. He formed a partnership in Zurich with the director Jean-Pierre Ponnelle and began challenging the maestro cult in Romantics and moderns. Much of his new work is first heard in Graz, which has given him a June festival.
1971年，他指挥他的首个歌剧团在维也纳上演了蒙特威尔第的《尤里西斯的返国》（Il Ritorno d'Ulisse in Patria, 1640），后来在拉斯卡拉又再一次上演。在苏黎世他与导演让-皮埃尔·波奈尔建立了合作关系，并在浪漫音乐领域和现代音乐领域开始挑战对大师们的狂热崇拜。他的很多新作品在格兰茨第一次听到，这些成就使他荣获了六月音乐节的邀约。
Beethoven, never truly at home in Vienna, is on his mind again. He has begun preparing the piano concertos, year by year, with Pierre-Laurent Aimard, a Parisian modernist much involved with Boulez and Ligeti. The contrast between Habsburg universalism and French nouveau-chic appeals to Harnoncourt. It is for such iconoclastic turns of mind that he attracts such tough-minded collaborators as Martha Argerich and Cecilia Bartoli, who names him as her first-choice conductor. Their performance of Haydn's long-dormant opera, Armida, was acclaimed in Vienna as "a triumphant resurrection"; the recording is released this month.
贝多芬的音乐，从来都没有只停留在维也纳的故居中，而是又一次浮现在哈农库特的头脑中。他开始着手准备钢琴协奏曲系列，年复一年，和皮埃尔一起合作。劳伦特·艾马尔，一个参与录制布列兹和盖蒂作品的巴黎现代派音乐家，哈布斯堡的普世主义和法国风格别致的诉求之间的对比启发了哈农库特，正是他内心里这种打破常规的倾向使他吸引到阿格里奇和塞西莉亚·芭托莉这样的坚定而理智的的合作者，他们把他称为她们的首选合作指挥。他们在海顿的长期休眠的歌剧《阿米达》中的演奏，在维也纳被誉为“胜利的复活”；同时，录制的唱片也会在这个月发布。
Harnoncourt stands apart in the post-maestro era as the Frank Sinatra of conductors, doing music his own way. What he brings to the art is a quiet authority and an almost childlike inquisitiveness. His performances are never pre-formed; he will often change details on impulse.
哈农库特和后艺术大师时代的“指挥家”弗兰克·辛纳特拉（Frank Sinatra，歌手、影视演员、主持人）不一样，他选择用他自己的方式来做音乐。他为艺术带来的，是安静的听众和几近孩童般的好奇。他的演奏，从来不是预先设定的，他常常因为一时心血来潮而临时改变很多细节。
"Every musician can read the music, study the period and claim to be correct," says Harnoncourt. "But for me the question is always why a composer wrote in a certain way. And that's what constantly interests me, the content not the form."
“每个音乐家都能通过读谱和研究音乐创作的年代，来断言正确演奏的方式，”哈农库特说，“但对于我来说，我所探寻的始终是作曲家为什么要这样写。从始至终，一直令我颇感兴趣的是音乐包含的内容，而不是它的形式。”
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