纽爱新总监梵志登访谈丨“我并不想被公众看作对某位作曲家有特殊癖好，演的最多或最为喜欢。”
L.A. meets the future conductor of the New York Philharmonic
在洛杉矶遇到纽约爱乐新任指挥
Since the announcement last year that Jaap van Zweden will serve as the New York Philharmonic's next music director beginning in 2018, classical music pundits have analyzed the Dutch conductor's every performance with heightened attention.
Angelenos will do the same this weekend, when Van Zweden returns to Walt Disney Concert Hall to lead the Los Angeles Philharmonic through the Fifth Symphonies of Beethoven and Shostakovich.
梵志登将于2018年起担任纽约爱乐乐团音乐总监，自从这则消息公布之后，古典音乐权威人士便开始以高度重视的态度来评析这位荷兰指挥家的每一场演出。
洛杉矶人也不例外，尤其是当梵志登将于本周末在华特*迪士尼音乐厅指挥洛杉矶爱乐乐团演绎肖斯塔科维奇和贝多芬的《第五交响曲》时。
Van Zweden still remembers the first time he conducted Beethoven's Fifth.
"It was in the Netherlands in the beginning of my conducting life and I was actually terrified for a piece which has been done so many times and under so many conductors we all know," he recalls. "To make it interesting, Beethoven is asking you to really dig into the piece for the lines in the music which are maybe not so obvious at first. That is the terrifying thing –– that you are not able to bring those lines out so much as you wanted."
梵志登依然还记得首次指挥《贝多芬第五交响曲》（Symphonie No.5 in c minor，Op.67，1804-1808）的时候：
“我那时还在荷兰，指挥生涯刚刚起步。事实上我对于这首已经被很多有名的指挥家出色得演绎过很多次的交响曲有些畏惧”，他回忆道，“为了能让这首曲子变得更有趣一些，你需要真正深入去解读这首乐曲，挖掘出那些原本不那么明显的东西。这正是让我感到有些恐慌的地方：我怀疑自己是否能够将自己的理解与想象完全演绎出来。”
Since those early days, Van Zweden, now 56, has developed into a bold, confident conductor. His dogged quest to unearth the deepest intricacies in the symphonies of Beethoven, Bruckner, Mahler and Shostakovich reaps thrilling, often surprising performances. In 2012, while serving as music director of both the Dallas Symphony Orchestra and the Hong Kong Philharmonic, the respected website Musical America recognized him as its conductor of the year.
随着时光的流逝，今年56岁的梵志登已经已经成长为一位果敢、自信的指挥家。他对于贝多芬、布鲁克纳、马勒、肖斯塔科维奇交响曲那错综复杂的内涵有着近乎执着的解读欲望，而正因此他的手中经常能诞生一些激动而让人感到惊喜的诠释。2012年，当他同时担任达拉斯交响乐团和香港爱乐乐团的音乐总监之时，他被权威性“美国音乐”网站评选为年度指挥。
A muscular, imposing figure on the podium, Van Zweden's mature conducting style crackles with energy and seethes with intensity. When he led the New York Philharmonic through a performance of Beethoven's Fifth in 2015, the New York Times' Zachary Woolfe praised his meticulousness, describing the performance as "particularly memorable" and "seductive."
Navigating Beethoven's Fifth is one thing. Handling constant media scrutiny is another.
伴着在指挥台上强健有力咄咄逼人的身影，梵志登成熟的指挥风格借助音乐的力量和张力表现出爆发与迸裂的感觉。2015年当他指挥纽约爱乐乐团演绎贝多芬《第五交响曲》的时候，纽约时代杂志的扎卡里·伍尔夫（Zachary Woolfe）称赞他的指挥细致入微，并评价这场演出“魅力十足，值得纪念”。
不过，驾驭贝多芬的《第五交响曲》是一回事，而保持良好的公众形象则是另外一回事。
In 2014, an article in the Dallas Morning News painted Van Zweden as a difficult boss with a penchant for "brow-beating." A year later, when the New York Times' classical music staff outlined its wish lists for the New York Philharmonic's next director, Van Zweden's name was conspicuously absent. In an article covering Van Zweden's appointment, New Yorker music critic Alex Ross noted that the conductor is not a "marquee name" and that some patrons might find the choice "mystifying."
2014年，达拉斯晨报将梵志登描绘为“咄咄逼人的、难以相处的指挥”，因此一年后，当纽约时报工作人员列出他们希望担任下一届纽约爱乐乐团音乐总监的人选时，梵志登被理所当然的排除在外。在一篇评论梵志登的上任的文章中，纽约音乐评论家亚历克斯·罗斯（Alex Ross）指出指挥家并不应该是一个“徒有其表的名字”，一些赞助商很可能对选择梵志登表示困惑。
So whereas five years ago Van Zweden answered questions about Beethoven's symphonies with carefree enthusiasm, today he is aware that everything he says and does is subject to examination, and that his repertoire choices have been criticized as less adventurous than current New York Philharmonic Music Director Alan Gilbert's.
Van Zweden is still eager to discuss Beethoven's music but careful to amend his statements: "I also do other things. I don't want to be put in a corner where people would say this is the composer he does the most or likes the best."
所以，对比他五年前回答关于《贝多芬交响曲》时所展现出的无忧无虑的热情，现在的他知道他的一言一行都会接受公众的评判，他的演出曲目也被批评不如纽约爱乐上一任音乐总监艾伦·吉尔伯特（Alan Gilbert）富有进取精神。梵志登依然渴望去深入解读贝多芬的交响曲，但现在的他也措辞严谨的表示“我当然也可以演绎其他的曲子。我并不想被公众评论为对某位作曲家有特殊癖好，演的最多或者最为喜欢”。
The conductor adds that he is "very into Wagner opera at the moment," and he is quick to point out that the night before this interview, he conducted the world premiere of a new symphony by American composer Christopher Rouse with the Dallas Symphony Orchestra.Van Zweden says he approached Rouse's new symphony the same way he tackles Beethoven's familiar Fifth. Regardless of the piece, he studies the score intensely, mining it for the hidden gems of melodic and harmonic details that he then coaxes from the orchestra.
梵志登还说到他“最近非常喜欢瓦格纳的歌剧”，并立刻补充到在采访前夜他与达拉斯交响乐团合作首演了美国作曲家克里斯托弗·劳斯（Christopher Rouse）的新交响曲。指挥家说到他用同样的态度和方法对待这首曲子和贝多芬《第五交响曲》，不论是什么样的曲子，他都会去认真阅读音乐总谱，发掘出在旋律、和声中隐藏的珍宝，并以此来指挥他的乐团。
瓦格纳《女武神》第一幕（梵志登/纽约爱乐）
"There's always something new to find," he says. "Whenever you get up in the morning, you get up as a pupil. I want to learn more things, to discover more things. That is actually how I like to live."
“总有一些你能发现的新东西”，他说到，“每当清晨醒来，我都会感觉像一名渴望新知的学生。我想要去发现新事物、掌握新事物，这就是我生活的态度。”——祝福起床最早的指挥家丨小泽征尔的坚持丨他与中国的不解之缘丨小泽纪录片汉译丨“太阳升起时，我常常已经读了至少两个小时的总谱或书。”
Van Zweden's passion for in-depth study no doubt aided his rise. This is a man who, according to his daughter, Anna Sophia, brings symphonic scores with him on family vacations. Even with a piece as well-worn as Beethoven's Fifth, he always studies and never conducts on autopilot.
梵志登对于乐曲深度挖掘的态度无疑有助于他的升迁。他的女儿索菲亚（Anna Sophia）说到“爸爸即使在家庭旅行期间也不忘研究总谱”。即使对于贝五这种他已经完全吃透了的曲子，他也会在演出前认真研究，从不只凭以前的记忆而演绎。
Van Zweden's musical life began in Amsterdam, where he fell in love with music as a boy listening to his father play the piano at night through the thin walls of their "very little house."
梵志登的音乐生涯始于阿姆斯特丹，当他还是一个男孩时，每天晚上他都会透过那“超小房子”的薄薄的墙壁聆听父亲弹奏钢琴，并逐渐爱上了音乐。
Wanting to make music for himself, Van Zweden picked up the violin at age 7. By the time he was 15, he moved to New York to study his instrument at Juilliard. At age 19 he was the youngest person to be appointed concertmaster of the Royal Concertgebouw Orchestra in Amsterdam.
随着他想要自己演奏音乐的愿望逐渐强烈，梵志登7岁起就开始联系小提琴，15岁时来到茱莉亚音乐学院读书。19岁的时候他被聘为阿姆斯特丹皇家乐团有史以来最年轻的小提琴首席。
As a young man, Van Zweden walked into an Amsterdam bar one night and met an artist named Aaltje. It was love at first sight for the violinist, who remembers finding his now-wife of 33 years instantly "mesmerizing." The city is still home for the Van Zwedens, who have four children. Their oldest, Anna Sophia, is a curator who worked closely with her father at the Dallas Symphony to establish an annual art and music festival. Their sons still live in Amsterdam. Daniel is a businessman and Alexander a student. The couple's experiences with their middle son, Benjamin, who is severely autistic, led them to establish the Papageno Foundation, a nonprofit dedicated to helping autistic children and their families. Aaltje serves as director.
那时还年轻的他，有一晚踏入阿姆斯特丹的一家酒吧，遇见了艺术家Aaltje。小提琴家几乎对她是一见钟情，现在的梵志登回忆道，当他第一次见到已经陪伴了他33年的妻子时，他完全被迷住了。今天这所城市依然是梵志登家族的归宿。他有四个孩子。长女安娜（Anna Sophia）是达拉斯交响乐团的管理者，经常与她的爸爸一起制定计划，举办年度的艺术音乐节。还有三个儿子依然居住在阿姆斯特丹，丹尼尔（Daniel）从商，亚历山大（Alexander）还在读书。次子本杰明Benjamin患有严重的自闭症，抚养他的经历也让这对夫妻建立了Papageno基金会，一个致力于帮助自闭症儿童及其家庭的非营利组织，Aaltje担任总监。
Van Zweden led an orchestra for the first time at the suggestion of Leonard Bernstein, who was guest-conducting the Concertgebouw in Berlin and wanted to hear the orchestra from the back of the hall. He handed the baton to Van Zweden during a rehearsal. Bernstein saw potential in the violinist's unpolished conducting skills. Lenny, as Van Zweden affectionately calls his mentor, encouraged him to pursue conducting.
梵志登的指挥生涯事实上起源于伯恩斯坦的建议——在德国时任荷兰皇家乐团的客座指挥，那时他想要在剧场后部聆听交响乐团的演奏效果。后来在一次排练中他将指挥棒交给了梵志登。由此伯恩斯坦看到了小提琴家展现的不曾打磨过的指挥潜能。“兰尼”，梵志登这样亲近地称呼他的导师，鼓励他继续去追求指挥生涯。
The podium suited Van Zweden, and by the mid-1990s he exchanged his violin bow for a conductor's baton permanently. "Suddenly I became what I actually always was," he says.
Van Zweden says something "clicked" the moment he realized his true calling.
指挥台似乎天生就是为梵志登而打造，辗转至1990年中期，梵志登正式将他手中的小提琴弓让位于指挥棒。“突然我找到了那个一直隐藏起来的真正的自我”，他说道，当他发现了真正的神秘召唤时有一种在那个时刻被什么东西“电”到了一下的感觉。
He uses that same word –– "click" –– to describe his relationship with the Dallas Symphony Orchestra, a group of musicians who, under his leadership, have thrived and evolved into a consistently taut and nimble ensemble. The word comes up again when he talks about the musicians of the New York Philharmonic. "There was this enormous click with the members of the orchestra," he says. "We have made some really wonderful connections already."
他用同样的词语“来电”，来形容他与达拉斯交响乐团的关系。一群训练有素的音乐家在他的指挥下，成长并进化为一个惯于严谨而敏锐的乐团。当他提到纽约爱乐乐团的音乐家时他又一次提到了这个词：“我和乐团的成员之间产生了巨大的电火花——我们已经建立起了非常美妙的联系。”
That spark between the conductor and the musicians in New York has been cited as a key factor in the decision to hire him. Whether or not New York's audiences and critics will feel a similar click remains to be seen. Van Zweden says that in the interim, he is not overly concerned by critics' lukewarm response.
他与纽约爱乐乐团之间的火花被认为是他得到聘任的一个重要原因。对于评论家和观众是否对它们之间的电火花买账，梵志登表示在接任的过渡时期他不会过于在意评论家们不温不火的评论。
"I think as an artist, you have to respect the people who write for the papers because they have been there for many years and they have relationships and trust and know the artists. I completely understand that," he says. "But of course I hope that when I come, and they get to know me, they can rethink a little bit their mixed feelings."
“我认为作为艺术家，你应该尊重那些撰写音乐评论的人，因为他们已经从事这行多年，建立了广泛的渠道，得到广泛的信任，对艺术家了如指掌。对此我完全理解”，他说道，“不过我当然希望随着我的到来，他们能够更加熟知我，并且可以稍微重新冷静思考一下他们以前对我形形色色的评价”。
This week, Van Zweden is looking forward to connecting with the L.A. Phil. He says that part of what keeps pieces like Beethoven's Fifth Symphony fresh for him is the chance to explore them with different orchestras around the world.
本周（编者按：本文发表于2017年3月8日），梵志登期待着能与洛杉矶爱乐乐团合作。他提到，能够使他对于贝五保持新鲜感的部分原因便是可以与世界上不同的交响乐团合作演绎这首曲子。
"I think that it is always a very important moment that you realize that an orchestra has its own history and its own DNA with certain pieces, and certainly with the Fifth of Beethoven," he says. "At the same time, of course I take with me from my experience and my years with these pieces. I think that the truth is in the middle. It's about that meeting. That is what is interesting."
“我认为，意识到一个交响乐团对于某首曲子的有着自己的演奏历史与音乐基因是非常重要的，贝五当然也是如此”，梵志登说道，“当然同时我也带来了自己多年沉淀下来的对于这首曲子的经验与理解，我认为真谛蕴含在两者的融合之处。最重要的是相遇与碰撞，这是最充满乐趣的地方”。