钢琴家李斯蒂莎访谈丨我为何“在YouTube创建自己的频道”？
https://v.qq.com/txp/iframe/player.html?vid=x0141u84t9x&width=500&height=375&auto=0Valentina Lisitsa演奏普罗科菲耶夫《第七钢琴奏鸣曲》
Feature interview with pianist Valentina Lisitsa in Donetsk
——‘They have threatened me many times’
在顿涅茨克对钢琴家瓦伦廷娜·李斯蒂莎的专访
——“他们曾多次威胁我”
Interview with Valentina Lisitsa published in Komsomolskaya Pravda, translated to English and published on Slavyangrad.org, May 16, 2016. Translation by Alexander Fedotov for Slavyangrad.org
和瓦伦廷娜·李斯蒂莎的访谈在2016年5月16日被刊登在《共青团真理报》上，之后由亚历山大.菲达托夫（Alexander Fedotov）翻译并转载在Slavyangrad.org。
小资料：2007年，瓦伦廷娜·李斯蒂莎（Valentina Lisitsa）首次在YouTube上发布了其演奏视频。当时，视频获得了极大反响，并很快地荣登为点击量之首，为她迅速积攒了庞大人气。而随着她在一众音乐活动中越发耀眼的表现，越来越多人被她充满感染力和表现力的演奏所折服，音乐评论家评论她是“充满电流的钢琴家”，YouTube上则有超过30万的人认为她是当代最受欢迎的古典艺术家之一。
Musicians Alexander Kots and Dmitry Steshin spoke with the renowned international, classical pianist Valentina Lisitsa for Komsomolskaya Pravda prior to a recent concert in Donetsk. She was in the city for the annual music festival honoring Donetsk-born Sergei Prokoviev. Lisitsa grew up in Ukraine and moved to the United States at the age of 18 to further her music career.
音乐家亚历山大.科茨（Alexander Kots）和德米特里.斯杰森（Dmitry Steshin）最近在顿涅茨克举行的一场音乐会之前，为《共青团真理报》对国际著名古典钢琴家瓦伦廷娜·李斯蒂莎做了一次专访。她参加的是这里每年一次，为了纪念在顿涅茨克出生的谢尔盖普罗科夫耶夫（前苏联时期俄国作曲家）的音乐节。李斯蒂莎在乌克兰长大，18岁时搬到美国继续她的音乐生涯。——1、普罗科菲耶夫与他的十首钢琴奏鸣曲；2、“钢筋水泥时代”的作曲家丨论普罗科菲耶夫的反浪漫主义
Valentina Lisitsa is not just loved in the Donbass, she is worshipped. And not only for her professional qualities but also for her political stance on the events in Ukraine of the past two and a half years. Her support of the people of Donbass has caused her much controversy and broken relationships with friends and colleagues, not only in Ukraine, where she comes from, but also in Europe. Despite the risk of becoming a persona non grata in her professional circles, she has traveled several times to perform in the war-torn land of eastern Ukraine. Tickets to her concerts sold out in a few hours. Before her performance in Donetsk. we stopped into her rehearsal.
瓦伦廷娜·李斯蒂莎在顿巴斯不仅被人们喜爱着，还像偶像一样被崇拜。这不只是因为她的职业素质，还有她对过去两年半乌克兰事件（指2014年2月开始的一系列事件）不可动摇的政治立场。她支持顿巴斯人民的态度不仅引发了许多争议，也使她与身边朋友和同事之间的关系破裂。尽管冒着在圈内成为“不受欢迎”的风险，但她还是一次又一次地到乌克兰东部饱受战争蹂躏的土地上演出。音乐会门票在几个小时内就售罄了。我们观看了她在顿涅茨克演出前的彩排。
Alexander Kots and Dmitry Steshin: We have been performing here since the very beginning – since March 2014. And it is somehow sad that so few musicians and actors come here to support the people of the Donbass. They can be counted on the fingers of one hand. But you are here for the second time already.
亚历山大.科茨和德米特里.斯杰森（Alexander Kots & Dmitry Steshin）：最早从2014年的3月起，我们开始在这儿工作。但不知为何，来到这支持顿巴斯人民的音乐家和演员屈指可数。但你已经是第二次来到这里了……
Valentina Lisitsa: I have been closely watching the situation [in the Donbass –trans.] from the very beginning and my heart was bleeding. Maidan… I was perceiving it somehow differently. I am from the generation from the period of the collapse of the Soviet Union. I used to speak the formal Ukrainian and run around in embroidered blouses. We had such independence…
瓦伦廷娜·李斯蒂莎：我从很早就开始关注顿巴斯的情况了，这让我很痛心。“乌克兰反政府示威”......我对它的看法不同。我是来自苏联解体时期的那代人。说着乌克兰语，穿着女士绣花衬衫跑来跑去。我们曾经是那么的独立......
Then that generation realised that it was deceived and all of them left. I ended up in America. I felt sorry for the young people at the last Maidan as they believed in the bright future while I had experienced it already and knew everything. Odessa was a disaster for me, because my roots are from Odessa. I looked in horror at what happened there [on May 2, 2014] and realised that there is no return to the past.
后来当这代人意识到我们被骗了，每个人都离开了。最终我到了美国。我为那些最近参加反政府示威的年轻人感到难过，因为他们再次相信了那些“光鲜的未来”，而我已经在经历这些事后明白发生的一切。敖德萨所发生的事[2014年5月2日]对我来说是一场灾难。我惊恐地凝视着它，意识到不会回到过去了
What happened in the Donbass and, fortunately, did not happen in the Crimea … I wanted to support the people. I am a pianist, my only weapon is my music. And it turned out to be a very powerful weapon. When I played here in Donetsk for the first time, I realised that the music is not just for pleasure, not some nice, elitist thing for people who have everything. No, people need music like oxygen. In Donetsk, I play Prokofiev, he was born here. Here are our roots, our civilisation to which the people, who are listening to me here, belong. Everything was tried to be taken away from them, with blood. I feel how the people need music; I do not think about the danger here or how the West will look at me. If anything, I have a home here and I can always come back. I came to Donetsk from Berlin, then I will fly to Canada, but my family and my people are on this land.
幸运的是，在顿巴斯发生的事情并没有发生在克里米亚......我想支持这些人民。我是钢琴家，我唯一的武器就是音乐。事实证明，这是一个非常有力的武器。当我在顿巴斯演奏的时候，我第一次意识到音乐不是娱乐，对于拥有一切的人来说，也不只是一件愉快的精英主义事物。人们对音乐的需求就像对氧气一样。我在顿涅茨克演奏了普罗科夫耶夫，他出生在这里。这是我们的根源，我们的文明，他们都属于这些在这里倾听我的人。他们好像要连同血液一起连根拔起。我能感受到他们是多么的需要音乐；我不会去想在这有多危险，或西方会如何看待我。就算发生了什么,我在这也有个随时可以回来的家。我从柏林来到顿涅茨克，之后我会飞往加拿大，但我的家庭和我的人民还在这片土地上。
AK & DS: Back in the 1990s, it was noticed that despite all the ‘freedom of speech’, there is a secret switch in the West. If it is switched off, a man, regardless of whether he is famous and talented, suddenly disappears from the information field. Forever. Are you not afraid of losing your audiences?
AK＆DS：回到二十世纪九十年代, 人们认为尽管"言论自由" 但在西方始终有一个秘密的开关。一旦开启它，无论一个人是否有名，都会突然从信息领域永远消失。你不害怕失去你的观众吗？
Valentina Lisitsa: The elite always created obstacles for me. That is why I created myself on my own, simply through YouTube. Over a hundred million people watched me. I do not think that someone can take these listeners away from me, or deceive them by telling them that I am not the one I say I am. I was not allowed to play in Canada last year. But recently I performed in Toronto. Tickets were sold out, and when I went on stage, I was greeted by a standing ovation. [Story below.]
瓦伦廷娜·李斯蒂莎：那些精英人士总是想办法给我“使绊子”。这也是我在YouTube创建自己频道的原因。有超过一亿人观看了我的频道。我不认为有人可以把这些听众从我身边带走，或是欺骗他们，告诉他们我不是像我描述的那样。比如去年我没有被允许在加拿大演出，但不久前在多伦多我演出的门票却卖光了。而当我走上舞台时，我受到了观众们热烈的欢迎。
Actually, there are more thinking people than seems. Not everyone automatically believes the television. They are the people to whom I appeal. I’m not afraid of threats, even though I have been threatened many times. I was threatened to be killed; myself and my family were insulted. But that’s nothing. It’s not worth the tears of a child. Two days ago, I played a day-time concert in Gorlovka. There were so many children there… They surrounded me, they wanted to play for me. We were warned that it was time they went home, as it was late … I, foolishly, thought: ‘Well, let the kids play’. Then we left and at 19:10 Gorlovka was fired upon while the kids returned to their homes under shelling. I played them Prokofiev, Bach, Chopin and remember how they looked at me. It was my best reward.
事实上，来的观众比我想象的要多。在我看来并不是每个人都愿意相信电视的内容。他们也是我所要呼吁的人。尽管多次威胁、侮辱、甚至要杀害我，我都不害怕。因为这些威胁都不如孩子的眼泪。两天前，我在戈尔洛夫卡（乌克兰城市）参加了一场日常音乐会。那里有那么多孩子......他们包围着我，他们都想弹给我听。但因为时间太晚了，我们被告知该离开了......而我却傻傻地想：'就让孩子们弹吧'。后来当我们离开时，在19点10分戈尔洛夫卡开始了炮击，这些孩子们在轰炸声下回到了家。我给他们弹了普罗科菲耶夫、巴赫、肖邦。我还记得他们看着我的眼神，那是对我最好的奖励。
AK & DS: Is what is happening in the Donbass discussed in any way in the West? Is there anything in the newspapers, on television?
AK＆DS：在西方会有人在报纸或电视上讨论着发生在顿巴斯的事吗？
Valentina Lisitsa: Something has started to appear。 But the majority of discussions are in the ‘alternative’ media: Twitter, Facebook。 I have met a large number of ordinary people around the world。 We are called ‘Kremlin trolls’ and blamed for all deadly sins。 However, these very people are conveying the truth to the entire world。 We are poking around a stone wall with a fork to make a small hole in it, the hole through which the sun will shine。 Judging by the communications, there are more and more people who understand what is happening in the Donbass and the Ukraine。
瓦伦廷娜·李斯蒂莎：有些消息开始慢慢出现。但大多数人们都在'另类'媒体上讨论着：比如Twitter、Facebook。我在世界各地遇到了很多普通人。他们不但称我们为'克里姆林宫巨魔'，还谴责我们犯下的所有致命罪过。然而正是这些人把真相带到了全世界。我们用叉子在石墙上凿出了一个小洞，太阳终会穿过这个小洞的。现在看来，越来越多的人知道了正在发生于顿巴斯和乌克兰的事情。
AK & DS: What has struck you in Donbass, what has gone straight to your heart?
AK＆DS：在顿巴斯什么事情让你感到震撼？
Valentina Lisitsa: We were in Debaltsevo and I was shown an apartment building, of which only the walls remained. And everything was so gloomy and grey. Suddenly, among this there was a bright spot – a pink baby blanket, girly. There is no need for photos with blood and dead bodies. It is enough to show a baby blanket that somehow survived in the burned house.
瓦伦廷娜·李斯蒂莎：当我们在杰巴利采沃（乌克兰城市）的时候，我被带到一栋只剩下墙壁的公寓楼。一切都那么的阴沉和灰暗。突然，出现了一个亮点——一条粉红色的婴儿毛毯。其实不需要任何带着血液和受害者的照片，一张废墟中遗留的婴儿毛毯就足够震撼了。
AK & DS: Have you seen any difference between Donetsk today compared to last year?
AK＆DS：你觉得今天的顿涅茨克和去年相比有什么不同吗？
Valentina Lisitsa: Wherever we go, we see people literally come out on Saturdays to clean, paint doors, windows and walls. People know this is their land – they cannot escape anywhere. In Ukraine, people dream of a visa-free regime; the whole country is ready to run away. The people of the Donbass have nowhere to flee. They protect their land, their ideals, their history, their civilisation… They take care of their land for real.
瓦伦廷娜·李斯蒂莎： 无论我们走到哪里，我们都会看到人们在星期六的时候出来打扫卫生，涂漆门窗和墙壁。人们明白这是他们的土地，他们无处可逃。乌克兰的人民总是梦想能有一个免签的制度，因为整个国家都在准备着离开。但顿巴斯人民无处可逃。他们要保卫他们的土地，他们的理想，他们的历史还有他们的文明......他们是在真正的关心着这片土地。
I conducted an experiment exhibiting photos from my concert in Stuttgart mixed with Donetsk ones. I asked which of these cities is a European city? I did not like Stuttgart – litter, graffiti everywhere, weeds on the main street. In contrast to Donetsk, it was something of a shocking realisation for everyone. Here, people clean the streets and are proud of what they do. They may be not inventing spaceships, but they do very important things for the city. I wanted to hug and kiss them all. What they do is important for the survival of Donbas, like any other task.
我做过一个实验：在音乐会上把斯图加特市（德国西南部城市）和顿涅茨克市的照片参杂在一起，并问观众这些照片哪些更像欧洲城市？我不是很喜欢斯图加特——因为那里到处都是垃圾和涂鸦，大街上长满了杂草。相比顿涅茨克，这让每个人都非常震惊。在顿涅茨克，人们清理街道，并为他们的行为而感到自豪。他们可能没办法造出太空舱，但他们为这个城市做了很大的贡献。我想拥抱并亲吻他们。和其他的职业一样，他们对顿巴斯这座城市是那么的重要。
AK & DS: It is a sign that the people have not lost faith, that they are not broken. We saw something similar in Syria, where the after-effects of the most powerful acts of terrorism disappear before our eyes …
AK＆DS：这是不是意味着人民还没有失去信心, 没有被打败。我们在叙利亚也看到了类似的情况，那些曾经那么可怕的恐怖主义活动也慢慢淡出了我们的眼帘......
Valentina Lisitsa: At the same time, the people of the Donbass, for example, are repairing the roofs not with plywood but with pretty new slate. So they believe that there will be peace and are building their future right now.
瓦伦廷娜·李斯蒂莎：与此同时，这就像顿巴斯人民不再用胶合板去修理屋顶，而改用新石板一样。他们相信总有一天和平会来的并积极地建设着他们的未来。
‘Reconciliation is possible’
“和解是可能的”
AK & DS: There were cases here of families breaking up because of different views on things. Were you somehow affected in any way? Have your friends in the Ukraine turned their backs to you?
AK＆DS：有些家庭会因为不同的观点而破裂。你有受到过这种影响吗？你在乌克兰的朋友会和你背道而行吗？
Valentina Lisitsa: Not only in Ukraine, it was much harder to perceive the behaviour of friends and colleagues in the West. It was one of the most difficult moments when I was accused of all deadly sins, except eating babies.
瓦伦廷娜·李斯蒂莎： 不仅是在乌克兰，我很多西方朋友和同事的行为也让我很难理解。当我被指控除了吃婴儿以外所有致命的罪恶时，那真是我一段很艰难的时刻。
The first time I returned from Donbass, someone started a “hoax” in the Dutch press that I tweeted that I was very pleased with the crash of the Malaysian Airlines Boeing [on July 17, 2014]. And how did my colleagues with whom I have worked for so many years react? One wrote a letter: “Valentine, I know you did not say that. But I have other friends who have lost their relatives, therefore, I cannot continue working with you.” I would stand firm for a man whom I know. But those good, correct Europeans heard something on TV and washed their hands of me. He and I were very close. His favourite composer was Shostakovich, who endured oppression, betrayal of friends …
我第一次从顿巴斯回来时，有人在荷兰媒体上发表了一个“恶作剧”，说我对马来西亚航空公司波音事故[2014年7月17日]的遇难感到非常开心。你知道和我工作多年的同事是什么反应？有人写了一封信：“瓦伦廷娜，我知道你没有这样说。但我有其他朋友失去了亲人，因此我没办法继续和你一起工作。“我支持他的选择。但不知为何这个正常的欧洲人在从电视里听到了什么后就决定放手不管了。我和他以前的关系非常好。他最喜欢的作曲家是肖斯塔科维奇（前苏联时期俄国作曲家），他忍受压迫、朋友的背叛......
And this Dutchman, knowing my civic position, turned away from me, like those ‘friends’ of Shostakovich. I want to ask him after many years whether he has learnt to better understand the music of Shostakovich. That is a West European style: not to be engaged and stand aside. It was the biggest disappointment.
而在这位荷兰人知道我的公民地位后，像那些'朋友'离开肖斯塔科维奇一样离开了我。过几年如果再见到他我想问他是不是变得更能理解肖斯塔科维奇的音乐了。这是一种西欧人的风格：始终站在一边不掺合进去。这是最令人失望的。
AK & DS: It is a common human tradition defeating war with music. Remember Shostakovich in the besieged Leningrad. Remember the film ‘Welcome to Sarajevo’: the cellist climbs the hill above the town, starts to play and people from the ruins are drawn to him. Now you have come to Donetsk. Will the war continue? How do you feel about it?
AK＆DS：音乐战胜战争是人类的传统。记得在肖斯塔科维奇被围困在列宁格勒的时候，想起电影《欢迎来到萨拉热窝》当大提琴手爬上镇上的小山后开始演奏，人们从废墟中走出来并来到他的身边。现在你来到了顿涅茨克。你觉得战争还会继续吗？
Valentina Lisitsa: I want to believe that all the people on the other side are already fed up with the war. They will achieve nothing with it. People here will stand till the last man is standing as they fight for a just cause. And they do not want any shameful peace that looks like surrender. They want fair and just peace.
瓦伦廷娜·李斯蒂莎： 我很愿意相信双方都已经厌倦了这场战争。他们已经不会再从这获得什么了。这儿的人民会为了正义而战斗到最后一个的。他们不需要那种看起来像投降一样的和平。他们渴望公平与和平。
A lot of water has to flow under the bridge before there would be a rapprochement of Ukraine with Donbass – too much blood has been shed. You see, the average Western man or woman knows about ‘Russian aggression’ in Ukraine. Who is the real aggressor? The aggressor is in Kiev. Neo-Nazis with their extreme ideology were sent here from there. They shot the grandmothers that went against their tanks. There is no reconciliation until they say: “Yes, we are guilty”, until the perpetrators go to court with the instigators.
在顿巴斯和乌克兰和解之前，一定会有大量的水在桥下流动——太多太多的血在里面流淌着。基本上每个西方的普通人都知道乌克兰的“俄罗斯侵略”。但谁才是真正的侵略者？真正的侵略者在基辅，很多有着极端思想的新纳粹主义都是从那里被派到了这。他们射杀那些正对着坦克的老人。那些犯罪的人如果没有和教唆他们的人一起到法庭上，他们永远不会意识到也不会说：“是的，我们有罪”。
It is clear that there are plenty of people in Ukraine who were herded into the army and executed orders. But there are also many ideological murderers and those who came here for money… Everything must be sorted out and perpetrators sentenced with the appropriate punishment. Only then reconciliation and rapprochement can start.
很显然，乌克兰有很多的人被赶入军队并去执行命令。但也有许多有意识的杀人犯和那些为了钱而来到这儿的人......一切都必须被整治，而犯罪的人应当被处罚。但只有当和解的时候才能像以前一样交集在一块儿。
AK & DS: In your spare time, what music do you listen to?
AK＆DS：在你除工作以外的空闲时间，你喜欢听哪些类型的音乐？
Valentina Lisitsa: (laughs) I’m listening to classical music 99 per cent of my time. My hobbies are folk music – Russian, Ukrainian, some kinds of exotic ones. It is hard to live without music so it lives with me. I have no vacations, no holidays. It’s always work, work, work.
瓦伦廷娜·李斯蒂莎：（笑）我99％的时间都在听古典音乐。我比较钟爱俄罗斯、乌克兰的一些传统音乐，当然还有一些充满着异乡情调的音乐。没有音乐的话人们的生活会变的很艰难，所以她一直陪伴着我。我没有什么假期,也没有什么空档。始终是工作，工作，工作。
AK & DS: Well what do you have on your player, on your phone?
AK＆DS：那么你的手机上有什么？
Valentina Lisitsa: Classical music (laughs).
瓦伦廷娜·李斯蒂莎： 古典音乐（笑）。
【音乐编译小组公众号】：1、八十岁时论阿劳丨论阿劳的演奏艺术；2、八十五岁论阿劳丨他的演奏何以伟大？3、钢琴家特里福诺夫专访丨“我在游泳池里练琴”；4、十五问王羽佳丨“演出”对你意味着什么？5、王羽佳访谈丨“穿长裙？待我四十岁！”6、王羽佳专访丨她赢得了没有参加的“比赛”！7、采访阿格里奇丨“音乐必须是自然流露的事情！” 8、帕尔曼追忆海菲兹丨“这么多小提琴家都试图模仿他，但他们的演奏却成了活生生的讽刺。”；9、肖邦大赛访傅聪丨“这个比赛没有完美的玛祖卡。” 10、韩国钢琴家赵成珍访谈丨“如果我遇见肖邦……”；11、憨豆先生采访郎朗丨谈肖邦以及古典音乐普及；12、古稀之年克莱默访谈丨谈《克莱默版贝多芬协奏曲》（亨勒出版社）；13、“奥伊斯特拉赫经常鼓励我，去寻找属于自己的声音”丨“当代怪杰”吉顿·克莱默访谈；14、“指挥家”李云迪访谈丨“音乐源自内心，这就是为什么即便我们一遍遍地弹奏相同的曲子，表演依然不是机械化的原因。” 15、郎朗弟子马克西姆·朗多访谈丨“郎朗对所有事物的热情深深感染着我，当我们在一起演奏时，可以感受到创造出的音乐竟然如此欢乐！” 16、肖邦“迷妹”阿格里奇论肖邦《第一钢琴协奏曲》丨“我多么渴望去亲眼看到肖邦怎样弹琴！”；17、纽爱新总监梵志登访谈丨“我并不想被公众看作对某位作曲家有特殊癖好，演的最多或最为喜欢。” 18、埃格纳钢琴三重奏访谈丨你有父亲、母亲和孩子，等我们长大了，孩子就会成为父亲和母亲，这就是室内乐想要阐明的观点！19、华裔小提琴家侯以嘉访谈丨“没有技巧就没有表达的自由；但只关注技术，很快会变得无聊或疲劳，并失去练习专注度。” 20、郎朗访谈丨“有时候父亲把我逼得太紧了，可他是爱我的！” 21、哈农库特访谈丨“我所探寻的始终是作曲家为什么要这样写”；22、面对批评，郎朗很委屈丨“我想让古典音乐表现得酷炫一点，这有什么不好么？”；23、“准备好了”丨回忆海菲兹小提琴大师班；24、美酒，女人和钢琴丨钢琴家鲁宾斯坦的三原色；25、纪念李帕蒂丨他坚称乐谱是“我们的圣经”，但对作品内在精神的解读更重要！26、周善祥访谈丨不想当钢琴家的作曲家不是好数学家；27、席夫丨为何我的《哥德堡变奏曲》宛如与魔鬼跳舞？【古典音乐译文公众号】1、作曲家拉威尔1928年演讲丨“真正的艺术作品是不可能靠分析鉴定的”；2、你怎么看音乐家找工作越来越难丨大提琴家斯塔克访谈（上篇）；3、他曾声明永远不在器乐演奏比赛中担任评委丨大提琴家斯塔克访谈（下篇）；4、布伦德尔谈莫扎特丨到底什么让他的音乐如此奇妙? 5、被遗忘的克莱门第丨他的键盘音乐文献如何影响海顿、莫扎特、贝多芬以及浪漫时期？6、弓在弦上，揉转成美丨与梅纽因对谈小提琴艺术；7、MTT谈马勒丨“他的音乐已经进入了我的心灵，永不磨灭。” 8、盛原采访米科夫斯基丨“我对钢琴大师班没有太大的信任”；9、富特文格勒丨如何理解贝多芬交响曲；10、从钢琴生产数量看，中国有多少万琴童？11、肖邦大赛后的齐默尔曼丨他不想只做肖邦专家；11、科尔曼丨面对贝多芬，便好似在和我们的灵魂对话；贝多芬的伟大，就在于他的平凡；12、富特文格勒丨巴赫为何重要？13、阿巴多丨音乐没有妥协可言