鲁宾斯坦访谈丨“我告诉家人，如果我坚持钢琴事业太久就开枪打死我。”
'I’ve told my family to shoot me if I go on too long'
——Classic interview with Arthur Rubinstein
鲁宾斯坦访谈
——“我已经告诉我的家人，如果我坚持钢琴事业太久就开枪打死我。”
The legendary pianist speaks to Alan Blyth (Gramophone, November 1968)
Relaxed after a meal at Scott’s – his favourite London restaurant for 40 years – and smoking his favourite brand of Havana cigar (‘banned in America, of course’), Rubinstein chatted to me for an hour and a half with an irresistible blend of reminiscence and fun. At 81 – and with the twinkle in his eye and fingers totally undimmed – he is something of a phenomenon. Yet he makes no particular effort to stay young. He does with very little sleep, eats what he likes, drinks three cups of coffee before going to sleep, and can travel further and for longer periods than his much younger wife. ‘I never take naps, never go to a spa, smoke large cigars – in fact, I do all the silly things I always did – even go to three movies one after the other’.（我们在Scott’s——他40年来最喜爱的伦敦餐馆吃过饭后，他放松了一下，抽了他最喜爱的哈瓦那雪茄——“当然这在美国是被禁止的”——鲁宾斯坦带着内心对过往的眷恋和回味的乐趣与我进行了一个半小时的交谈。他虽然已经有81岁，但依然精神矍铄，眼睛里闪着光，手指依然灵活，这就是他现在的状态。他从未刻意做什么去让自己保持年轻，甚至反其道而行。他睡眠时间很短，想吃什么就吃什么，每天在睡觉前喝三杯咖啡，比年轻的妻子能旅行更长的时间。“我从不小睡，也不去泡温泉，还抽大雪茄——其实，我做了所有我一直都在做的“傻事”——甚至一部接一部地看电影”。）
Perhaps the continuing freshness of his playing can be accounted for by his own dictum: ‘I see my role at this late hour as trying to play a little better what I used to play a little less well’. And today he confines himself to those works in which he feels he has something to offer that younger players may not have. It was not always so. ‘I used to be what I call an “on-my-knees musician”. I would play anything and everything. I learnt Bach’s B minor Mass, all Wagner, most of the symphonic repertoire, and the accompaniments, in piano arrangements, for violin concertos. I did all the chamber music repertory, accompanied singers in Schubert, Wolf, Debussy, playing for artists like Maggie Teyte. I lived every kind of music and I didn’t have much patience with the piano virtuosi who spent six hours playing Clementi and all kinds of difficult exercises every day to perfect their technique. They were martyrs, I thought. I liked to enjoy life, see pictures, go to plays – I once spent two weeks in secret going to Stanislavsky productions in Moscow. And my playing was like that of a bad pupil – I hadn’t enough respect for it. （或许，他自己的箴言可以对他永葆青春的演奏做出解释，“在我晚年的这段时间我才明白了自己的角色，并一直在努力将过去那些诠释得不尽人意的作品弹得更好一些。”现在，他把自己限制在那些可以给年轻的演奏家带来启示的作品上，但也不总是如此。我曾经是那种我所说的“跪拜式的音乐家”，我可以演奏任何音乐。我学习巴赫的《b小调弥撒曲》（BWV232）、大量的瓦格纳交响乐作品、小提琴协奏曲以及钢琴伴奏音乐。我尝试了所有的室内音乐曲目，为演唱舒伯特、沃尔夫、德彪西的歌手伴奏，还为像麦琪泰特这样的艺术家演奏。我游弋在每一种音乐中，但我无法像有些钢琴大师那样有耐心为了达到高超技术每天花六个小时去练习克列门蒂以及做所有高难度的练习。我想他们才是真正的殉道者。我更喜欢享受生活，喜欢看电影，看戏剧——我曾秘密地花两个星期的时间在莫斯科看斯坦尼斯拉夫斯基的电影。我所有的行为表现得就像是一个不学钢琴的坏学生——我没有给予它足够的重视。）
‘Then in 1933, when I was well over 40, I married, and my wife persuaded me to use my capital of talent. I suddenly found it was right to practice – and I think I can say I transformed myself into a decent pianist. But, even at 81, I still think there’s so much to improve and, by golly, I want to do it – although I’ve told my family to shoot me if I go on too long. It’s sad when people have to say “too bad, but you should have heard him 20 years ago”.’（1933年时我40岁，我结婚了，我的妻子劝我要好好利用我的才能，我才猛然意识到练习是正确的——我想我可以说是我使自己变成了一位优秀的钢琴家。即便我现在已经81岁，但我目前的能力依然还有很大的提升空间，天呐，我一定要去做——尽管我告诉我的家人，如果我坚持得太久就杀了我。但是如果听到人们说“他现在的演奏太糟糕了，你在20年前就应该听到他的音乐。”，我还是会感到非常遗憾。）
Joachim, who with three bankers paid for his musical education, was one of the main influences on his early years. ‘He was a great one for sight-reading and from the beginning I used to accompany his violin pupils in anything and everything’.（早年乔基姆和三个银行家给他的音乐教育资助，对他起到了至关重要的作用。“他是个优秀的即兴演奏家，以前我可以给他的小提琴学生弹任何伴奏。）
The two pianists he most admired in his youth were Eugen D’Albert – ‘I was most impressed by his Beethoven concertos’ – and a Frenchman called Eduard Risler (whom, Grove relates, played all the Beethoven sonatas in London in 1906). ‘I was impressed bySchnabel’s intellect but I worshipped Risler’s playing. When he interpreted Beethoven, it seemed like his language. He had a deep, inborn feeling for the music – there was nothing contrived or clever about his readings. I remember on one occasion he played the second movement of Schumann’s G minor Sonata and afterwards everyone was crying. He ennobled me – one felt like a good and grateful listener at a great happening’.（他年轻时有两个最喜爱的钢琴家，一个是艾伯特（Eugen D’Albert），“最让我印象深刻的是他演奏的贝多芬钢琴协奏曲”；还有一个是法国人，叫做爱德华·里斯勒（Eduard Risler），和格罗夫相似，1906年在伦敦演奏了贝多芬所有的奏鸣曲。“施纳贝尔的才华让我深受感动但是里斯勒的演奏更给我一种内心深处的震撼。他仿佛是在用自己的语言来诠释贝多芬，他对音乐有着深度的理解和天赋——他的作品并没有过多的精心设计，但我还记得有一次他在演奏舒曼的《g小调钢琴奏鸣曲》（The Piano Sonata in G Minor,No.2,Op.22） 第二乐章后，所有人都潸然泪下。在那一伟大的时刻他使我成为了一个懂得感激的好的聆听者。）
Any idea that Rubinstein has just come to chamber music is very much disproved by the facts as he told me them. ‘I was always buried in chamber music. I used to play sonatas before the First World War with the wonderful Polish violinist Paul Kochanski and trios with him and his brother. Then during that war I often played with Ysaÿe, withCasals, with Thibaud, with Tertis. That was in London where many artists were exiled. We used to have midnight sessions going on until dawn just playing for our own enjoyment. Once I remember someone jokingly asking Thibaud whether he would play the Bach Chaconne at seven in the morning. He took out his violin and there on the doorstep while we were waiting for a taxi, he played it.（正如他告诉我的那样，所有关于鲁宾斯坦对室内乐的想象都成为了现实。“我总是沉浸在室内音乐中。我曾经在第一次世界大战前和出色的波兰小提琴家保罗科查斯基与他的弟弟一同演奏奏鸣曲。战争期间，我还常常和 伊萨伊、卡萨尔斯、蒂博、特蒂斯一起演奏。那时在伦敦有很多流亡的艺术家，我们常常从午夜开始演奏直到黎明破晓，尽情地享受音乐带来的快乐。我还记得有一次，有人开玩笑地问迪勃是否可以在早上七点演奏巴赫的恰空舞曲，于是当我们等出租车时，他拿出了他的小提琴，就在门口的台阶上演奏了起来。）
Of course, as your success as a soloist grows, managers and impressarios are reluctant to let you play with others. But I did manage to play with the Pro Arte Quartet in the 1930s, and now I can impose my own plans and likings. Besides, the Guarneri is a wonderfully fresh and un-routine ensemble’.（当然，作为一个优秀的成功的独奏音乐家，那么经理和你的老板都不会情愿让你与他人进行合奏。但我在20世纪30年代和专业的四重奏乐队合作过，现在我可以做任何我想做的事情。而且，瓜奈里是个非比寻常的出色的重奏组合。）
His London debut was with Casals at the Queen’s Hall in 1910, when he also gave three recitals at the Wigmore Hall. By that time he had already broken away from the child prodigy image. But it was his famous series of concerts in Spain during 1916 that established him beyond doubt, he considers, as a solo pianist. ‘They told me I was the only one who could really play Spanish music. From then on, I had to play it so much that I became tired of it. I remember on one occasion an English society lady of rather more wealth than intelligence asking me to play some “Ramon Navarro” – she’d got her film stars and composers a little mixed’.（1910年，他和喀索斯在女王音乐厅进行了首演，还在Wigmore音乐厅进行了三场独奏音乐会，那时他已经完全摆脱了音乐神童的形象。随后1916年他在西班牙举办的系列著名的音乐会使他毫无疑问地作为一个独奏钢琴家出道。“他们说我是唯一一个真正能演奏西班牙音乐的人。从那时起，我不得不演奏非常多的西班牙音乐直到我对它感到厌倦。我还记得有一次，一位拥有的财富远超于智慧的英国上流社会的女士要求我演奏一些“雷蒙纳瓦罗”——显然，她把电影明星和作曲家搞混了。”）
It was perhaps records more than anything else that established his true fame in this country and for that we have to thank Fred Gaisberg, but before coming to him, Rubinstein told me about the first attempt to get him on disc. ‘During my first tour in the US after the First World War I was in love with the mezzo-soprano Gabriella Besanzoni – what a marvellous Carmen she was. I wasn’t very popular yet in America – they said I played too many wrong notes – but she was, and Victor tried to bribe me to get her for them – I was her sort of unpaid agent – on the understanding that “we might have a spot for you”. I wasn’t interested as pre-electric records made the piano sound like a banjo.（在这个国家，他的声誉可能更多来自于他的唱片，这都应该归功于弗雷德盖斯伯格（Fred Gaisberg），但在说起他之前，鲁宾斯坦告诉我他第一次录制唱片的故事。“在一战后我第一次去美国的旅行中，我爱上了女中音——加布拉贝桑左尼——她是个神乎其神的卡门扮演者。那时在美国我并不是非常出名——他们说我的现场演奏有太多的错音——维克多想要让我去说服加布拉贝桑左尼为他们工作——那样我就成了她免费的代理人——还提出了“我们将会为你预留位置”的交换条件，可是，我对听起来像班卓琴的钢琴前期电子录制工作并不感兴趣。）
‘Then, one day shortly after the advent of electric recording Fred Gaisberg took me to lunch at Hayes. After the meal, he simply asked me to sit down and play whatever I liked. I chose the ChopinBarcarolle which, unbeknown to me, Gaisberg recorded. When I heard the test pressing, I fell in love with it and that disc was my first to be issued. I’ve recorded the piece four or five times since but never so well, I think. Then, of course we followed it up. I suppose my records of Tchaikovsky’s B flat minor Concerto with the LSO and Barbirolli did more than anything to establish me in America as a serious pianist in the late 1930s. Now I suppose I’m quite well-established’ – this, with a little smile – ‘as a recording artist. Two years ago I was the classical best-seller in America together with the Philadelphia Orchestra. I’m glad that they have come over to RCA so that we can get together at last. In fact we shall soon record Chopin’s F minor Concerto, I hope, and his Fantasy on Polish Themes.’（接着，在电子录音技术出现不久后的一天，盖斯伯格邀请我在汉斯吃午饭。饭后，他说我可以演奏任何我想演奏的东西。 我演奏了肖邦的船歌，令我感到意外的是，盖斯伯格将它录制了下来。当我听到测试唱片时，我瞬间就爱上了它，这就是我录制的第一张唱片。后来又录制了四五次却都没有如此完美。当然最后我们还是把它完成了。我想，在20世纪30年代后期与伦敦交响乐团、巴比罗利一同合作的柴可夫斯基降b小调钢琴协奏曲确立了我在美国作为一个严肃钢琴家的地位。而现在，我想我已经可以是一个相当成熟的——这里他笑了笑——一个录音艺术家了。两年前，我和费城交响乐团一起成为了美国最畅销的古典音乐家。我很开心他们来到了Radio Corporation of America唱片公司，那样我们就可以在一起长期合作了。事实上我们马上要录制肖邦的f小调协奏曲，这是他关于波兰主题的美好想象。)
Has he a favourite record? ‘Really, the last one I have made. I’m never satisfied with the older ones – I always dream of doing them again – better. In the same way, every concert is just a lesson for the next. But I love making records. I’m always struck with terror when I hear the first take but in a few minutes I realise where the tempo is wrong, where I’m too loud, or too sentimental so I can get it right the next time. Mind you sometimes I don’t succeed in achieving what I want. There are tapes of Schubert’s late sonatas and of the Schumann Fantasy. They’re in the can, as they say, but I find them artificial and laboured; the right spirit is not there. Then I’ve done the three Brahms quartets with the Guarneri and these were successful, I think.’（他有自己最喜欢的唱片吗？“说真的，我最爱的是我做的最后一张。我从来不满足于旧的那些——我总是希望能把它们重新再做一次——并且可以做得更好。同时，每一首协奏曲都只是为下次做准备的宝贵经验。我喜欢录制唱片，虽然每次听到第一个音时我总是很害怕，但是几分钟后我意识到某处出现了节奏错误、某处我的演奏声音过大，或是有些情感泛滥，在下次录制时我便可以及时改正。可是你要知道，有时我总是达不到自己内心的目标，例如有一些类似舒伯特晚期奏鸣曲和舒曼的幻想曲的作品。就像他们说的，“他们是在罐子里的。”，然而我发现那些被关在罐子里的其实是假的，他们真正的灵魂并不在那里。后来我和瓜里尼合作了三首勃拉姆斯的四重奏，还是很成功的。)
Rubinstein hates comparing work against work as to their respective quality. ‘I believe they are just different, not minor, deeper or longer. One can’t say whether Rembrandt or Titian is the better painter. In the same way when I play a Liszt Rhapsody or Faure’s Quartet, for that moment this is the only kind of music and I’m not thinking of Beethoven or Brahms. I’m completely involved in the work in hand and just then nothing else matters. In the same way when I eat a Crêpe Suzette, I’m not thinking of the Steak Béarnaise I ate before.’（鲁宾斯坦不喜欢拿作品和作品来作比较，因为每首作品都有各自的价值。“我相信他们都是最独特的，并没有大小，深浅和长短之分。谁也不能说伦勃朗和提香哪个更胜一筹，同理当我演奏李斯特的狂想曲或福尔的四重奏时，这一刻那就是唯一的音乐，我不会去想贝多芬或是勃拉姆斯。我完全地陶醉在我所演奏的音乐之中，其他一切都不重要。就像当我在吃法式薄饼时，我绝不会想着我以前吃过的蛋黄酱牛排”）
The good-food analogy is typical of this urbane, well-travelled cosmopolitan. He speaks eight languages ‘but I would give seven of them away if I could really dominate one. I spoke two languages as a boy. We spoke Polish at home, but as Poland was subjugated by the Tsars and we were treated like underlings, Russian was the official language in my schools. When I went to study in Berlin I learnt German quickly. As I already knew Yiddish from home, I picked it up quickly. Joachim persuaded me to have French and English lessons so that when I eventually went to Paris and London, I soon knew these languages reasonably well. I think the Russian artists who come to the West today are very much handicapped by not being able to speak other languages.’（鲁宾斯坦还是个典型的城市美食家、世界性的旅行家。他会说8种语言，“但是如果我真的能支配一种语言的话，我会放弃其他七种。我在童年时期说两种语言，我们在家说波兰语，但是当波兰被沙皇占领后，我们成为了沙俄的附属国，在学校里，俄罗斯语就成为了官方语言。当我在柏林上学时，我很快地学习了德语，因为我在家时就了解了意地绪语，所以我很快地学会了它。在学校时乔姆基推荐我去上法语和英语课，所以最后当我去到巴黎和伦敦时，我很快就可以熟悉这些语言了。我认为当今那些去到西方的俄罗斯艺术家如果不会说他国语言的话，就可以说是有“缺陷”的人了。
He has little general advice for young players. He abhors all methods – ‘we are all so different’ – and considers it essential for teachers to understand the psychology of their pupils so they can learn what they can and what they cannot achieve. ‘We are all so different and what one can do, another can’t. I no longer play Bartók or Prokofievbecause these can be done just as well by the young pianists. It’s only interesting for me to play music these days where I can offer something of my own that perhaps others have not got.’
（对于年轻的演奏家，他没有什么普遍的忠告。他厌恶所有的教义——我们是如此的不同——对于老师来说，了解学生的心理非常重要，这样老师才能明白他们能做到什么，不能做到什么。“我们是如此不同，一个人可以到的事情，另一个人未必可以。我不再演奏巴托克和普罗科菲耶夫，因为年轻的钢琴家能演奏得更好。所以现在对我来说最有趣的是演奏那些独具‘鲁宾斯坦’味道而别人做不到的音乐。”）
往期推送：1、八十岁时论阿劳丨论阿劳的演奏艺术；2、八十五岁论阿劳丨他的演奏何以伟大？3、钢琴家特里福诺夫专访丨“我在游泳池里练琴”；4、十五问王羽佳丨“演出”对你意味着什么？5、王羽佳访谈丨“穿长裙？待我四十岁！”6、王羽佳专访丨她赢得了没有参加的“比赛”！7、采访阿格里奇丨“音乐必须是自然流露的事情！” 8、帕尔曼追忆海菲兹丨“这么多小提琴家都试图模仿他，但他们的演奏却成了活生生的讽刺。”；9、肖邦大赛访傅聪丨“这个比赛没有完美的玛祖卡。” 10、韩国钢琴家赵成珍访谈丨“如果我遇见肖邦……”；11、憨豆先生采访郎朗丨谈肖邦以及古典音乐普及；12、古稀之年克莱默访谈丨谈《克莱默版贝多芬协奏曲》（亨勒出版社）；13、“奥伊斯特拉赫经常鼓励我，去寻找属于自己的声音”丨“当代怪杰”吉顿·克莱默访谈；14、“指挥家”李云迪访谈丨“音乐源自内心，这就是为什么即便我们一遍遍地弹奏相同的曲子，表演依然不是机械化的原因。” 15、郎朗弟子马克西姆·朗多访谈丨“郎朗对所有事物的热情深深感染着我，当我们在一起演奏时，可以感受到创造出的音乐竟然如此欢乐！” 16、肖邦“迷妹”阿格里奇论肖邦《第一钢琴协奏曲》丨“我多么渴望去亲眼看到肖邦怎样弹琴！”；17、纽爱新总监梵志登访谈丨“我并不想被公众看作对某位作曲家有特殊癖好，演的最多或最为喜欢。” 18、埃格纳钢琴三重奏访谈丨你有父亲、母亲和孩子，等我们长大了，孩子就会成为父亲和母亲，这就是室内乐想要阐明的观点！19、华裔小提琴家侯以嘉访谈丨“没有技巧就没有表达的自由；但只关注技术，很快会变得无聊或疲劳，并失去练习专注度。” 20、郎朗访谈丨“有时候父亲把我逼得太紧了，可他是爱我的！” 21、哈农库特访谈丨“我所探寻的始终是作曲家为什么要这样写”；22、面对批评，郎朗很委屈丨“我想让古典音乐表现得酷炫一点，这有什么不好么？”；23、“准备好了”丨回忆海菲兹小提琴大师班；24、美酒，女人和钢琴丨钢琴家鲁宾斯坦的三原色；25、纪念李帕蒂丨他坚称乐谱是“我们的圣经”，但对作品内在精神的解读更重要！26、周善祥访谈丨不想当钢琴家的作曲家不是好数学家；27、席夫丨为何我的《哥德堡变奏曲》宛如与魔鬼跳舞？28、卡萨尔斯论演奏丨“我们必须学会不要每个音符都完全照搬谱子上写的拉。” 29、钢琴家李斯蒂莎访谈丨我为何“在YouTube创建自己的频道”？30、席夫访谈丨“我们必须努力向公众解释如何聆听美妙的音乐。” 31、托斯卡尼尼与川普丨作为权力工具的古典音乐；32、论托斯卡尼尼丨热爱自由并勇于行动；33、布伦德尔谈周善祥丨“你可以雇一个登山向导来教一个小孩儿怎么走路。” 34、指挥家圣克莱尔论布鲁克纳《第八交响曲》丨“他并不浪漫，你在他的音乐中并不能得到像柴科夫斯基或者马勒交响曲中所得到的感受。”
【古典音乐译文公众号】1、作曲家拉威尔1928年演讲丨“真正的艺术作品是不可能靠分析鉴定的”；2、你怎么看音乐家找工作越来越难丨大提琴家斯塔克访谈（上篇）；3、他曾声明永远不在器乐演奏比赛中担任评委丨大提琴家斯塔克访谈（下篇）；4、布伦德尔谈莫扎特丨到底什么让他的音乐如此奇妙? 5、被遗忘的克莱门第丨他的键盘音乐文献如何影响海顿、莫扎特、贝多芬以及浪漫时期？6、弓在弦上，揉转成美丨与梅纽因对谈小提琴艺术；7、MTT谈马勒丨“他的音乐已经进入了我的心灵，永不磨灭。” 8、盛原采访米科夫斯基丨“我对钢琴大师班没有太大的信任”；9、富特文格勒丨如何理解贝多芬交响曲；10、从钢琴生产数量看，中国有多少万琴童？11、肖邦大赛后的齐默尔曼丨他不想只做肖邦专家；11、科尔曼丨面对贝多芬，便好似在和我们的灵魂对话；贝多芬的伟大，就在于他的平凡；12、富特文格勒丨巴赫为何重要？13、阿巴多丨音乐没有妥协可言；14、德彪西丨“古典诗歌有自己的生命。” 15、勋伯格丨曾经只有一位钢琴家擅长演奏贝多芬；16、指法、技巧和生动的音乐丨米科夫斯基谈钢琴；17、在卢塞恩（琉森）采访富特文格勒丨“很多指挥家只掌握了初级的技术。他们不是在指挥演奏音乐，而仅仅是在打拍子。” 18、康德拉辛丨深入探讨肖斯塔科维奇；19、聆听海顿遇到的最大问题是什么？ 20、钢琴家齐默尔曼丨关于拉赫玛尼诺夫两首钢琴协奏曲的访谈