“音乐绝对不是知识”丨钢琴家白建宇访谈
“Music is anything but intellectual”
An interview with Kun Woo Paik
“音乐绝对不是知识”丨白建宇访谈
Written by Colin Anderson
由科林·安德森撰写
Kun Woo Paik in person is very much like his playing – thoughtful, reflective and considered. Such wisdom is apparent on his latest CD, a beautifully recorded, sensitively played collection of piano pieces by Fauré recorded in July last year at the Brangwyn Hall in Swansea.
白建宇他本人就像他的演奏一样——富有思想内涵、回味无穷、思绪悠长。去年7月在斯旺西的布朗温音乐大厅（Swansea's Brangwyn Hall）的录制了一系列作曲家弗雷（Fauré）钢琴曲，非常美妙的录音，他的智慧也充分地在这一张CD上得以提现。
Kun Woo Paik has come a long way since his early days in Seoul, North Korea. He was born in 1946 and made his debut at the age of ten playing Grieg’s concerto. He now lives in Paris, which is where we meet, and has done so for the last twenty years. It was a recital in New York of the complete piano music of Ravel in 1971 that finally determined him to be a professional pianist.
从北朝鲜（North Korea）首都首尔的早年生活以来，他已经取得了很大的进步。他出生于1946年，在他10岁那年首次登台演出就演奏了格里格的钢琴协奏曲。他现在居住在巴黎，在过去的二十年里，我们经常在那里见面。而最终1971年，他在纽约举办了那场意义非凡独奏音乐会确定他走上职业钢琴家这条道路。
“When I was seven, we bought a piano. My mother began to give lessons to other children. I started to play by myself, imitating the others. I suppose my parents saw that I was picking up faster than other students, and without lessons, so they thought I had some talent.”
当我七岁的时候，我们家买了一架钢琴。我母亲开始给其他孩子上课。而我就开始模仿着别人自己弹。我想我的父母是看到我比其他学生学得更快，而且还没有上课，所以他们认为我有一些天赋。
At this time Paik had access to a “musical café where music-lovers could listen to LPs, all day long. I remember the Chopin concertos, Beethoven symphonies, Brahms. When I heard music at the café I would come home and play what I heard … it was a natural thing to express myself through the piano”. Paik particularly recalls the records of Rubinstein, Backhaus, Brailowsky and Serkin. There were also concerts in Seoul – “Serkin, Rubinstein, Schwarzkopf and Richard Tucker came to Korea – Schwarzkopf came to Korea to give a recital! – it was amazing and we didn’t even have a proper hall! I particularly remember Serkin, the lights went out and he continued to play in the blackout!”
这时，白建宇接触了一个“音乐咖啡馆”，这是一个可以让音乐爱好者整天听音乐的地方。“我记得有肖邦协奏曲、贝多芬交响曲、勃拉姆斯。当我在咖啡馆听完音乐回家后、我就会去弹奏我所听到的……通过钢琴来表达自己是一件很自然的事情。”他特别回忆起当年听到的录音中了有鲁宾斯坦、巴克豪斯、 布莱洛夫斯基和塞尔金的演奏的唱片。那个时候在首尔也有演唱会——“塞尔金、鲁宾斯坦、施瓦茲科普特、理查.塔克、来到韩国——对我来说施瓦茲科普特来到韩国举行独奏会!简直是太棒了，而且我们那时候连一个像样的大厅都没有!我特别记得赛尔金金，那时候灯突然灭了，但是他依然在黑暗中继续他的演奏！”
“When I was over twenty, I was sent to New York by the Korean Government. Still, I did not think of myself as a pianist but people there said I should continue my studies. Rosina Lhévinne got me a scholarship to Juilliard, but it took me along a long time to decide. I arrived in New York having been pushed to play the Paganini Rhapsody, the Ravel concerto; I was too young to understand. So in New York I wanted to get away from the piano. The love for music was so strong that I did everything else – accompanying singers, chamber music, opera and ballet répétiteur, everything except studying Beethoven sonatas. Madame Lhévinne used to say ’why don’t you study?’ As a youngster I thought that her school of piano playing was most natural – basic technique and repertoire. She was Schumann, Chopin and Brahms.”
“当我二十多岁的时候，我被韩国政府派往纽约。尽管如此，我并不认为自己是一个钢琴家，但那里的人们说我应该继续我的学业。罗西娜·列文涅给了奖学金让我去茱莉亚，但是我却花了很长时间才做好决定。我到达纽约时，被要求着弹奏《帕格尼尼狂想曲》、拉威尔《协奏曲》；那时的我太还小了，不太明白。所以在纽约，我想远离钢琴。但是对音乐的热爱又是如此强烈，以至于我做了所有其他的事情——伴唱歌手、室内乐、歌剧和芭蕾舞，除了学习贝多芬的奏鸣曲。列文涅夫人常说：“你为什么不学习？”作为一个年轻人，我认为她的钢琴演奏是最自然的——基本的技巧和曲目。她可以是舒曼，肖邦和勃拉姆斯。
“As a student I wanted to hear and see everything”. Paik’s biography lists that he plays Bach to Stockhausen. As well as Rosina Lhévinne, Paik studied in London with Ivona Kabos, in Italy with Guido Agosti, and with Wilhelm Kempff. “Agosti was a revelation – Liszt to Busoni. Kempff had a Beethoven course; his was the noblest playing you could find. He was humble, gentle, so refined, at the same time very profound. Agosti was all imagination, such imagination, so very powerful, and pianistically he was incredible. I think each one has been an influence; they have opened the door”. Kabos helped develop Paik’s communicative skills.
“作为一个学生，我想要听到和看到所有的一切。”白建宇的传记中列出了他为施托克豪森（Stockhausen）的演奏巴赫。除了罗西娜.列文涅（Rosina Lhévinne）之外，白建宇还在伦敦与伊洛娜·卡布斯（Ivona Kabos）、在意大利与圭多·阿戈斯蒂（Guido Agosti）和威廉·肯普夫（Wilhelm Kempff）学习。“阿戈斯蒂就像一个启迪者，李斯特、布索尼......肯普夫有一个专门教授贝多芬音乐的课程;他是你能找到的最高尚的人，他谦恭、绅士、非常的文雅，同时又非常博大精深。而阿戈斯蒂满脑子都是想象力，他的想象力，非常的强大，而且令人难以置信。我认为每一位老师都对我有影响;他们为我打开了一扇门。”而卡布斯帮助提高了白建宇的语言交流能力。
In recorded terms, Paik is especially associated with Russian music – Scriabin, Prokofiev, Mussorgsky and Rachmaninov. His accounts of Prokofiev’s concertos are on Naxos. “I suppose I was looking to identify myself in Western music. It seems that the Russian temperament and, curiously enough, the Korean temperament are very close. We are not the polite, shy image that you have; if you see the World Cup, they are very outgoing, excitable and emotional.”
从记录上看，白建宇与俄罗斯音乐——像斯克里亚宾、普罗科菲耶夫、穆索尔斯基和拉赫马尼诺夫的音乐——有着特别的联系。他在纳克索斯岛（希腊岛屿）对普罗科菲耶夫协奏曲进行了描述。“我觉得我是想在西方音乐中证明自己。似乎俄罗斯人的气质和韩国人的气质非常接近。我们不是你那种彬彬有礼、害羞的形象；如果你看世界杯，那你就可以看到他们是非常外向、激动和情绪化的。”
“These are very different feelings to those in Fauré’s piano music, Paik’s new CD release (Decca 470 246-2), which is elusive and poetic. “Fauré is a very individual composer. People used to say that he was a French Schumann, influenced by Chopin. But he developed his own language; it’s so personal that you do not find it in any other French composer. I think one of the reasons why Fauré suffers is because he is thought of as being salon-like. It’s not, it’s a confession, much more tormented, pessimistic; at the same time he has this incredible beauty and naivety.”
“这与弗雷（译者按：Faure Gabriel 1845～1924年是法国著名作曲家和管风琴演奏家）的钢琴曲——白建宇的新专辑（Decca 470 246-2）有着截然不同感受，这个钢琴曲是一种难以捉摸和诗意的作品。弗雷是一个非常独立的作曲家。人们常说他是一个受到肖邦影响的法国舒曼。但是他有着自己独立的语言;它是如此的个性化，以至于你在任何其他法国作曲家中都找不到它。我认为弗雷遭受痛苦的其中一个原因是它被认为是像沙龙音乐一样的。不是的，这种音乐更像是这是一种忏悔，更痛苦，更悲观；但是同时，他还有着不可思议的美丽和天真。”
The layout of the new CD has been carefully thought about. “How can I introduce this composer? I chose something accessible to start, Romance sans paroles. Then the first nocturne gives a very clear idea what Fauré’s language is, and then goes slowly into his late period, and then coming back to the Ballade, one of his earliest successes: you have the global picture of Fauré without too much difficulty. I find Ballade is very pretty, very well written, there is so much colour and I see landscape, which is so particular – only the French can create that kind of sound”. I suggest the music is enigmatic. “It’s not an enigma, it’s the composer as a person – he is touched by language, history, landscape, food; he is surrounded. It is a product of what he inhaled. When he was in the South of France he breathed the air and felt the heat.”
新CD的整体布局已经仔细考虑过了。“我怎么介绍这位作曲家？”我选择了一些比较容易接近他的东西开始，浪漫的无词歌。然后，第一个夜曲就给了我一个非常清晰的概念，到底什么是福雷的语言，然后我再慢慢地进入他的写作后期，再又回到他最早成功之一的叙事曲。你可以毫不费力地在全球范围内看到法龙的形象。我发现他的叙事曲写得很漂亮，写得很好，有非常多的色彩，它令我我看到了如此独特的风景——只有法国人才能创造出这样的声音“。我说这音乐是神秘的。他回道“这不是一个谜，而是作为一个人的作曲家——他被语言、历史、风景、食物所感动，他被包围了。当他在法国南部，呼吸着空气，感觉着温热，这是他身体吸收之后得到的作品。”
Kun Woo Pail now records exclusively for Decca. His third CD is planned to be recorded next February, but the pianist will not say what. Last year, for his Decca debut, Paik recorded Bach transcriptions made by Ferruccio Busoni (467 358-2). “Bach never really specified an instrument. I share Busoni’s point of view – he takes a much larger meaning of the transcription; I’m not sure he even approves of the word because he believed that everything is a transcription. A Beethoven symphony is a transcription of what he heard; in other works of art, a poet transcribes a thought into words, a painter sees something then transcribes into painting.”
白建宇尔现在只为迪卡录制唱片。（Decca成立于1929年，是世界最大的古典厂牌之一）。他的第三张CD计划在明年二月录制，但钢琴家不会说任何有关这张CD的信息。去年，在迪卡首秀上，白建宇录制了由费鲁乔·布索尼（467-358-2，Ferruccio Busoni 1866-1924年是意大利作曲家、钢琴家、指挥家、编辑、作家和教师。）的巴赫改编曲作品。“巴赫从来没有真正指定过一种乐器。我同意布索尼的观点——他赋予了改编非常大的意义；我甚至不确定他是否赞同这个词，因为他相信一切都是转化。贝多芬交响曲是他所听到的东西的转录；在其他的艺术作品中，诗人把一个思想转化成文字，画家看到一些东西，然后转化成绘画。”——推荐阅读：1、布索尼谈钢琴演奏丨“在出色的钢琴演奏中，一切细节都是重要的。” 2、布索尼（1866-1924）是谁？3、布索尼和他的C大调钢琴协奏曲；4、布索尼谈音乐丨《李斯特练习曲》序言；5、伟大演奏家与钢琴技术风格演变丨布索尼丨 佩特里丨帕赫曼丨丽莉·克劳斯丨霍洛维茨丨兰多芙斯卡；6、布索尼钢琴法则十二条丨“当你被热情迷醉时，永远不要过分使用自己的精力。”
I suggest then that everything perceived as original has its basis in something; and there is always something beyond the original. “Exactly. It takes as much creativity to transcribe something into a whole new work. The violin chaconne transcription” (from Partita, BWV 1004) “you have to take as it is, you do not have to refer to the original. We tend to compare – this is not correct. I know some people who hate this chaconne by Busoni, saying that he destroyed the original. When I first heard it in New York with Alicia de Larrocha it was a shock!”
我建议，所有被认为是原创的东西都有它的基础；而且总有一些超越原始的东西。“没错。把某样东西转录成一项全新的工作需要很大的创造力。比如小提琴恰空舞曲改编”（来自《巴赫无伴奏小提琴组曲第二首》，BWV 1004）“你必须接收他现在的样子，不必去参考原作。我们总是会去比较改编与原作——但这是不正确的。我知道有些人很讨厌布索尼的这支恰空舞曲，说他破坏了原作。在纽约，当我第一次从艾丽西亚·德拉罗查（Alicia de Larrocha） 那听到这个时，我非常震惊！
Busoni is a particular fascination for me; so too Paik. “What I like about Busoni is that while each composer belongs to a certain country and period, Busoni is a philosopher who could think about music as an outpouring, as something unconscious”. I mention his Italian/German conflict. “It was a good conflict because he doesn’t denote any one period and at the same time belongs to all periods as one work of art – that’s why you will have baroque to atonal music in one piece. For him the history of music does not divide into sections but the whole history belongs to our music. He embraces that history; that’s why ordinary people have a problem because they cannot place him. I keep saying to people that music is so rich – we reduce, reduce and reduce; I don’t understand why we make our life so poor”. As I’ve always thought, categorisation is self-defeating.
布索尼对我来说有着一种特殊的魅力；所以是特别沉重的一击。“虽然每一位作曲家都属于某个特定的国家和时期，但我喜欢的布索尼是一位哲学家，他可以把音乐视为一种流露，一种无意识的东西。”我提到他的意大利/德国冲突。“这是一场很好的冲突，因为他的艺术作品不代表任何一个时期，同时又属于所有时期——这就是为什么你会在一件无调性音乐作品中找到巴洛克风格。”对他来说，音乐历史不会分成几部分，因为整个历史都属于我们的音乐。他拥抱历史；这就是为什么普通人会有异议，因为他们不能取代他。我一直对人们说，音乐是如此丰富——而我们在音乐面前是如此的微弱甚至渺小；我不明白为什么我们的生活如此贫乏。”正如我一直认为的那样，分类就是自寻烦恼。
A rich time is promised in August during the Emerald Coast Music Festival in Dinard, France. This is its thirteenth year. “By chance, I became the music director after the fifth year when the founder had a stroke and died. I was involved anyway and got the city involved, and performers came for very little fee. The public is growing, and there are more and more sponsors. It’s three weeks of good company, food and music, a very friendly atmosphere.”
在法国迪纳德举行的翡翠海岸音乐节上，我们承诺将在八月举行一次丰富的音乐盛事。这是它的第十三年。“在创办人中风去世的第五年之后，我偶然地成为音乐总监。不管怎样，我也参与了这场比赛，并且让整个城市都参与了进来，而演员们来的时候只收。公众人数在增加，赞助商也越来越多。这是三个星期的好伙伴，食物和音乐，一个非常友好的气氛。“而且演员们也只收取极少的费用。参与的公众人数在增加，赞助商也越来越多。我们在一个非常友好的氛围里，听着美妙音乐，品尝着美味的食物，度过了三个星期。”
Paik’s future plans include a Brahms/Schumann recital “for the winter” – perhaps a clue to his next CD! – “and I recently did the last three Beethoven sonatas in many places. For me, it’s one of the best programmes I’ve ever done, just because the music is so fantastic. I haven’t played any Spanish music yet, very rich, formidable repertoire; it will need many years of study.”
白建宇未来的计划包括一场有勃拉姆斯或者舒曼的“致冬天”的独奏音乐会——这也许是他下一张CD的线索！——“我最近在许多地方演奏了最后三首贝多芬奏鸣曲。对我来说，这是我做过的最好的节目之一，完全是因为音乐简直太棒了。我还没有演奏过任何西班牙音乐，那些非常丰富的，令人敬畏的曲目，还需要再研究多年。”
I enjoyed the company of this thinking musician. Just the day before we met, Paik had watched ’The Art of the Piano’ on video. “You look at all these pianists – Paderewski, Horowitz, Serkin, Michelangeli, Arrau – and you just feel these people lived inside the music; whereas most of the performers you hear today are outside of the music.”
我享受跟这样一个有思想的音乐家的相处。就在我们见面的前一天，白建宇在视频上看了《钢琴的艺术》。“你看看所有这些钢琴家——帕德莱夫斯基、霍洛维茨、瑟金、米开朗基利、阿劳——你只是觉得这些人生活在音乐里；而你今天听到的大多数表演者都是在音乐之外。”
Paik acknowledges that there are “wonderful pianists” today, yet I think his point is well made. It’s partly to do with time; there is too much travelling, time only for preparing the notes. “I like to have time with the family, time to study, a quiet time to think; but you obliged to accept a concert.”
白建宇承认当今社会有“优秀的钢琴家”，我不得不承认他的观点很有道理。下面这一部分是白建宇对时间的看法；他的经历太多了，所以只记下来他说的这句话。“我喜欢有时间和家人在一起，有时间学习，有时间安静的思考，但又不得不接受一场音乐会。”
Direct communication is important to Kun Woo Paik. “Music is anything but intellectual; we analyse too much. Bernstein was able to explain and at the same time give pleasure. I hate to talk about first theme, second theme; it’s so irrelevant. Music has to touch other human beings; if it does not touch me I don’t see why I should do it.”
直接沟通对白建宇来说很重要。“音乐绝不是知识；我们分析的太多了。伯恩斯坦有能力在做解释的同时，也给人带来快乐快乐。但我讨厌谈论第一个主题，第二个主题;它是如此无关紧要。音乐必须触动他人；如果它触不到我，我就不明白我为什么要这么做。”
往期推送：1、八十岁时论阿劳丨论阿劳的演奏艺术；2、八十五岁论阿劳丨他的演奏何以伟大？3、钢琴家特里福诺夫专访丨“我在游泳池里练琴”；4、十五问王羽佳丨“演出”对你意味着什么？5、王羽佳访谈丨“穿长裙？待我四十岁！”6、王羽佳专访丨她赢得了没有参加的“比赛”！7、采访阿格里奇丨“音乐必须是自然流露的事情！” 8、帕尔曼追忆海菲兹丨“这么多小提琴家都试图模仿他，但他们的演奏却成了活生生的讽刺。”；9、肖邦大赛访傅聪丨“这个比赛没有完美的玛祖卡。” 10、韩国钢琴家赵成珍访谈丨“如果我遇见肖邦……”；11、憨豆先生采访郎朗丨谈肖邦以及古典音乐普及；12、古稀之年克莱默访谈丨谈《克莱默版贝多芬协奏曲》（亨勒出版社）；13、“奥伊斯特拉赫经常鼓励我，去寻找属于自己的声音”丨“当代怪杰”吉顿·克莱默访谈；14、“指挥家”李云迪访谈丨“音乐源自内心，这就是为什么即便我们一遍遍地弹奏相同的曲子，表演依然不是机械化的原因。” 15、郎朗弟子马克西姆·朗多访谈丨“郎朗对所有事物的热情深深感染着我，当我们在一起演奏时，可以感受到创造出的音乐竟然如此欢乐！” 16、肖邦“迷妹”阿格里奇论肖邦《第一钢琴协奏曲》丨“我多么渴望去亲眼看到肖邦怎样弹琴！”；17、纽爱新总监梵志登访谈丨“我并不想被公众看作对某位作曲家有特殊癖好，演的最多或最为喜欢。” 18、埃格纳钢琴三重奏访谈丨你有父亲、母亲和孩子，等我们长大了，孩子就会成为父亲和母亲，这就是室内乐想要阐明的观点！19、华裔小提琴家侯以嘉访谈丨“没有技巧就没有表达的自由；但只关注技术，很快会变得无聊或疲劳，并失去练习专注度。” 20、郎朗访谈丨“有时候父亲把我逼得太紧了，可他是爱我的！” 21、哈农库特访谈丨“我所探寻的始终是作曲家为什么要这样写”；22、面对批评，郎朗很委屈丨“我想让古典音乐表现得酷炫一点，这有什么不好么？”；23、“准备好了”丨回忆海菲兹小提琴大师班；24、美酒，女人和钢琴丨钢琴家鲁宾斯坦的三原色；25、纪念李帕蒂丨他坚称乐谱是“我们的圣经”，但对作品内在精神的解读更重要！26、周善祥访谈丨不想当钢琴家的作曲家不是好数学家；27、席夫丨为何我的《哥德堡变奏曲》宛如与魔鬼跳舞？28、卡萨尔斯论演奏丨“我们必须学会不要每个音符都完全照搬谱子上写的拉。” 29、钢琴家李斯蒂莎访谈丨我为何“在YouTube创建自己的频道”？30、席夫访谈丨“我们必须努力向公众解释如何聆听美妙的音乐。” 31、托斯卡尼尼与川普丨作为权力工具的古典音乐；32、论托斯卡尼尼丨热爱自由并勇于行动；33、布伦德尔谈周善祥丨“你可以雇一个登山向导来教一个小孩儿怎么走路。” 34、指挥家圣克莱尔论布鲁克纳《第八交响曲》丨“他并不浪漫，你在他的音乐中并不能得到像柴科夫斯基或者马勒交响曲中所得到的感受。”
【古典音乐译文公众号】1、作曲家拉威尔1928年演讲丨“真正的艺术作品是不可能靠分析鉴定的”；2、你怎么看音乐家找工作越来越难丨大提琴家斯塔克访谈（上篇）；3、他曾声明永远不在器乐演奏比赛中担任评委丨大提琴家斯塔克访谈（下篇）；4、布伦德尔谈莫扎特丨到底什么让他的音乐如此奇妙? 5、被遗忘的克莱门第丨他的键盘音乐文献如何影响海顿、莫扎特、贝多芬以及浪漫时期？6、弓在弦上，揉转成美丨与梅纽因对谈小提琴艺术；7、MTT谈马勒丨“他的音乐已经进入了我的心灵，永不磨灭。” 8、盛原采访米科夫斯基丨“我对钢琴大师班没有太大的信任”；9、富特文格勒丨如何理解贝多芬交响曲；10、从钢琴生产数量看，中国有多少万琴童？11、肖邦大赛后的齐默尔曼丨他不想只做肖邦专家；11、科尔曼丨面对贝多芬，便好似在和我们的灵魂对话；贝多芬的伟大，就在于他的平凡；12、富特文格勒丨巴赫为何重要？13、阿巴多丨音乐没有妥协可言；14、德彪西丨“古典诗歌有自己的生命。” 15、勋伯格丨曾经只有一位钢琴家擅长演奏贝多芬；16、指法、技巧和生动的音乐丨米科夫斯基谈钢琴；17、在卢塞恩（琉森）采访富特文格勒丨“很多指挥家只掌握了初级的技术。他们不是在指挥演奏音乐，而仅仅是在打拍子。” 18、康德拉辛丨深入探讨肖斯塔科维奇；19、聆听海顿遇到的最大问题是什么？ 20、钢琴家齐默尔曼丨关于拉赫玛尼诺夫两首钢琴协奏曲的访谈