罗斯特罗波维奇访谈（下）丨“我从50年代开始指挥，这大大拓宽了我塑造音乐的视野。”
Conversation with Mstislav Rostropovich
罗斯特罗波维奇访谈（下）
By Tim Janof（作者：蒂姆·加诺夫）；延伸阅读：1、他就是灵魂丨朱亦兵、林应荣、谢光禹谈罗斯特罗波维奇；2、弟子回忆罗斯特罗波维奇丨钢琴家神经质，小提琴家自负，而大提琴家则和蔼、坦率；3、王健、秦立巍、赵静谈罗斯特罗波维奇丨“他热爱一切，热爱他遇到的所有人！” 4、“他的伟大却在音乐中”丨这本传记把罗斯特罗波维奇写活了！5、巴赫是最能创造奇迹的作曲家丨罗斯特罗波维奇解说巴赫无伴奏大提琴组曲（中文字幕）；6、你可以偶尔练习一下指挥，这样有助于明晰正在学习的作品丨罗斯特罗波维奇演奏肖斯塔科维奇《第一号大提琴协奏曲》；7、尊重老的传统或大师，但要带着一颗温暖的心去对待新生事物或人丨罗斯特罗波维奇指挥圣桑《第一大提琴协奏曲》；8、大提琴的音色刚强、温暖而富有力度丨罗斯特罗波维奇演奏海顿两首大提琴协奏曲；编者按：限于篇幅，我们分成多个部分推送：罗斯特罗波维奇访谈（上）丨“在我演奏时，我不是在听大提琴的声音，而是在听一个管弦乐团。”
TJ: Your playing changed significantly over decades. Your playing earlier in your career had a certain simplicity and sense of restraint. It became more rhythmically free and emotionally charged later on. Was there something that happened in your life that caused this change?
加：几十年的时间见证了你在演奏方面的重要变化。在生涯早期，你具有明显的简洁性和克制感，而之后，节奏变得自由了，情绪变得强烈了。这种改变是否归因于你生命中的某些事件？
MR: I simply evolved over the years. My playing changed as I learned more and as I gained more experience with great musicians around the world. I also started conducting in the 1950's, so my perspective on music-making greatly widened. I became more comfortable with the music making process as a whole and I felt freer to express myself on a more personal level.
https://v.qq.com/txp/iframe/player.html?vid=l03056tqfcm&width=500&height=375&auto=0罗斯特罗波维奇演奏德沃夏克《b小调大提琴协奏曲》
罗：我仅仅是在不断发展。学得多了，和世界各地的伟大音乐家合作得多了，我的演奏就跟着改变了。我从1950年代开始指挥，这大大拓宽了我塑造音乐的视野。我变得更加适应于音乐创造的整体过程，更加随心所欲地在个性化的层面上表达自己。
I also learned a lot about conducting from people such as Herbert von Karajan. I remember lamenting to him about my difficulties in getting a choir and orchestra to be in synch with each other. No matter what I did, they simply weren't together. He told me to just lower my hands so that the orchestra couldn't see my beat. This forced the orchestra to listen to the choir as they played instead of depending on visual cues. Suddenly the ensemble was perfect!
跟随卡拉扬等人，我的指挥长进很多。记得我曾向卡拉扬抱怨，我很难把管弦乐团与合唱团互相统一起来，无论我怎么尝试，它们都合不到一起。他和我说，尽管把双手放低，不让管弦乐团看到我的拍点。这迫使乐团在演奏的同时去倾听合唱团，而不是依赖视觉引导。合奏突然就变得完美了！
TJ: The Elgar, Walton and Barber concerti were not in your standard repertoire. Why?
加：你的保留曲目里没有埃尔加、沃尔顿和巴伯的协奏曲，这是为什么？
MR: I stayed away from the Elgar because I think of that piece as somewhat naïve. The theme from the slow movement sounds like it's about first love, so I think it's more appropriate for a young person. My pupil Jacqueline du Pré played it much better than I because I didn't have the fresh perspective that a piece like that requires. After playing Don Quixote, the Shostakovich concertos, and other works, it was hard for me to go back to a piece like the Elgar.
罗：我远离埃尔加协奏曲，是因为我觉得这部作品比较天真。慢乐章的主题听起来像是初恋，所以我认为它更加适合于年轻人。我的学生杰奎琳·杜普蕾在这首作品的表现上远优于我，就是因为我并不具备这部作品所要求的清新视角。在演奏《堂吉诃德》（Don Quixote, Op.35，理查·斯特劳斯），肖斯塔科维奇的协奏曲等作品之后，我很难回到类似埃尔加那样的作品。——宗柏讲述大提琴家的故事丨卡萨尔斯丨皮亚蒂戈尔斯基丨罗斯特洛波维奇丨马友友丨杜普蕾说：”拉琴时的感觉，就像漫步青山碧水间。”
TJ: Why didn't you record the third Britten Suite?
加：你为何没有录制布里顿的《第三大提琴组曲》（Cello Suite No.3, Op.87）？
MR: That was a mistake. I have three musical gods -- Shostakovich, Prokofiev, and Britten -- and I feel like I didn't pay sufficient homage to the last one by recording that piece. I was devastated when Britten died so I stayed away from the third suite for awhile, but then I got too busy with other things and I simply never got around to recording it. This is one of my regrets in life.
罗：这是个错误。我有三位音乐之神——肖斯塔科维奇，普罗科菲耶夫，以及布里顿。我似乎觉得，没有灌录这部作品，让我对布里顿的崇敬打了折扣。布里顿的逝世让我十分悲痛，所以我暂时回避了这部作品，而之后我又忙于其它事情，抽不出时间来录制它。这算是我一辈子的遗憾。
I remember when Britten asked me to show his War Requiem to Shostakovich. He had composed it in just a couple of weeks. Shostakovich called me two days after I dropped the score off and said that he wanted to hear the work performed, saying, "I'm one hundred percent sure that Britten is one of the greatest geniuses of the twentieth century."
我记得布里顿曾经让我把《战争安魂曲》（War Requiem, Op.66）带去给肖斯塔科维奇看看。只用了几周时间，布里顿就完成了这部作品。我把乐谱留给肖斯塔科维奇，两天之后，他联系我，说他想观赏此作品的演出，并和我说：“我百分之百地肯定，布里顿是二十世纪最伟大的天才之一”。
TJ: Why didn't you record the Walton Concerto? That seems like a great piece for you.
加：那么你又为何没有留下沃尔顿协奏曲（Cello Concerto, 1956）的录音呢？这部作品似乎对你来说很重要。
MR: I didn't have time to play everything. I gave 320 world premieres throughout my career, so I was always extremely busy. I was also busy playing the standard repertoire and conducting orchestras around the world. I could only do so much.
罗：时间不允许我什么都演奏。在我的职业生涯里，我完成了320次世界首演，所以我总是特别忙。对于自己的保留曲目，我也是耗时甚巨，此外还要指挥世界各地的乐团。我只能做这么多了。
Walton was a great composer and I asked him to write a cello piece for me, but he never got around to it. He did write an orchestra work, Prologo e fantasis, which was his last composition. I asked Barber and Messiaen to write something for me too, but they never got around to it either. Messiaen wrote Concert à Quatre, which is a concerto for flute, oboe, cello, and piano, and he had me in mind when he wrote the cello part. I premiered it after Messiaen died.
沃尔顿是一位伟大的作曲家。我曾请求他为我写一部作品，但他始终抽不出时间来。他在生涯的末尾写了一部管弦作品《前奏与幻想曲》（Prologo e Fantasia, 1982）。我也请巴伯和梅西安给我写点东西，但他们也同样没空。梅西安为长笛、双簧管、大提琴和钢琴写过《四重协奏曲》（Concert à Quatre; 1991-92），当他写作大提琴声部时，脑海中是想到我的；在他去世之后，我参与了这部作品的首演。
TJ: Given your phenomenal technique, you must have practiced endlessly when you were young.
加：鉴于你技惊四座的技艺，你一定在年轻的时候没日没夜地练琴吧？
MR: I generally practiced at most two hours per day. My record was over a four day period after Shostakovich gave me the score to his first cello concerto. I knew that he was working on it, but I first learned that he had completed it from the local newspaper. I remember wondering anxiously if I would get to see it, since at the time I had no idea if I would be the one to give its premiere. I rushed over immediately when he called and he said that if I liked it he would dedicate it to me. I was in heaven! I went straight home and practiced ten hours that day, ten hours the next day, eight hours the day after that, and then six hours on the fourth day. I only practiced that hard because I was so excited about the piece, and that was the most I practiced in all of my 79 years. I played it for Shostakovich from memory after the fourth day, which was one of the proudest moments in my life.
罗：一般来说，我每天最多练习两个小时。在拿到肖斯塔科维奇《第一大提琴协奏曲》的乐谱之后的四天里，我练得最多。我之前就知道他在写这部协奏曲，但我是在当地的报纸上得知他写完的消息。那时我疑虑又焦躁，不知能否见到这作品，因为在当时,我并不知道自己会否成为首演者。他联系我了，我立即冲过去，然后他说，如果我喜欢这作品，他就把它题献给我。我简直高兴疯了！我径直回家，那天练了十个小时，第二天也是十个小时，之后一天八个小时，第四天六个小时。我对这部作品感到十分兴奋，这才练得那样刻苦；这是我在79年时间里练得最多的。四天后，我背谱为肖斯塔科维奇演奏，这是我一生中最荣耀的时刻之一。
I was very lucky because I didn't need to practice when I was young. While some performers had to practice every day in order to stay in top form, I didn't. It was as if my fingers had a memory of their own. They never forgot what they were supposed to do.
在年轻的时候我不需要练琴，这是非常幸运的。有些演奏者不得不通过每天练习来保持最佳状态，而我不需要。我的手指仿佛有自己的记忆，它们绝不会忘记我希望它们做的。
TJ: If you weren't a big practicer then what was that story about you hanging food from the ceiling as you practiced.
加：如果你不是个练琴狂人，那怎么解释你在练琴的时候把食物吊挂起来的故事？
MR: That was when I lived in Orenburg, which is in the Urals. I was thirteen years old when my father passed away. He had been the cello professor at the local music academy and I was the best cellist in town after he died, so I was asked to take his place. My family needed the money, so I dropped out of school in eighth grade and took the job. In order to earn some additional cash, I also played some pieces at the local theater as part of an operatic production and I made kerosene lamps to sell at the market. Basically, I was so busy that I didn't have time to practice more than an hour or two per day.
罗：那是在乌拉尔地区的奥伦堡。我13岁时，父亲去世了。他曾是当地音乐学院的大提琴教师，而在他去世之后，我成了城里最好的大提琴手。因此，人们希望我接替父亲的位置，况且我家里也需要钱。正在读八年级的我就这样辍学去工作了。为了挣些额外的钱，我在当地的剧院为歌剧演出拉些曲子，还自己制作煤油灯拿到集市上去卖。基本上，我忙得不可开交，每天只能练习一至两个小时。
My godmother often baked large flatbread for me, which I tied to a ceiling lamp such that it hung near my head as I practiced. The hard part was catching it so that I could take a bite. The bottom line is that I was so busy that I didn't have time to eat, so I ate while I squeezed in some precious practice time.
我的教母经常给我烤扁面包。练琴的时候，我把面包系在吊灯上，挂在我嘴边。控制住它并啃上一口还是很困难的。总之，关键就是我太忙了，没时间吃饭，所以只能在来之不易的宝贵练琴时间里吃。
TJ: What are your priorities when you perform? Are you thinking about the music, the composer, the audience?
加：你在演奏的时候优先考虑的是什么？是在想音乐，作曲家，以及听众吗？
MR: I never choose because they are all important, but I do care very deeply about doing justice to the composer. I've had many composers play parts for me on a piano. Sometimes they play very badly, but I see what they feel in their face. I try to re-create their feelings in my performances.
罗：我从来不做选择，因为它们都很重要。不过，我会无比谨慎地对待作曲家。我曾让很多作曲家在钢琴上为我演奏。有时候，他们虽然弹得十分糟糕，但我在他们脸上捕捉到他们的感受。我在演奏中试图再造他们的感受。
TJ: What were Shostakovich and Prokofiev like as people?
加：肖斯塔科维奇和普罗科菲耶夫是什么样的人？
MR: Shostakovich was very shy and sensitive and he had a rich inner life that he kept to himself. He avoided confrontation and would fib to spare somebody's feelings. I remember him going up to somebody after a concert and praising their performance and predicting a great future career even though the performance was actually pretty bad. He generally kept his true thoughts and feelings to himself, though he did tend to open up a bit at parties.
罗：肖斯塔科维奇十分地害羞和敏感，拥有只属于自己的丰富的内在生活。他回避冲突，也会撒点小谎来照顾别人的感受。我记得，他在一场音乐会之后走向演奏者，夸赞他们，预言他们会有辉煌的未来，虽然那场演出实在是糟透了。他一般总是不表露自己真实的想法和感受，虽然在聚会上容易略敞心扉。——钢琴家玛利亚·尤金娜丨论肖斯塔科维奇
Prokofiev, on the other hand, didn't seem to have an unexpressed thought. If he didn't like something, he never considered another person's feelings before he shared his opinion. As an example, Prokofiev once asked Shostakovich why he used so much tremolo in his Fifth Symphony, telling him that it sounded like Aida, which I gather was a bad thing. He could be quite acidic.
普罗科菲耶夫则不一样，他似乎绝不隐藏想法。如果他不喜欢一件事，会毫不顾忌别人感受地表达出来。举个例子，普罗科菲耶夫有一次问肖斯塔科维奇，为什么在《第五交响曲》（Symphony No.5, d minor, Op.47）里使用如此多的震音，搞得听起来像《阿依达》（Aida），感觉很糟糕。他可以相当地尖酸。
Their composition process was also very different. While Prokofiev did a lot of his composing at the piano, Shostakovich worked out a lot of ideas in his head. I do have in my collection small pieces of paper on which Prokofiev would jot down ideas during massage sessions, so he did do some work away from the piano, but Shostakovich's process was much more internal. I took many walks with Shostakovich during which he would suddenly raise his head and become very quiet, which I understood to mean that he was composing.
他们的创作过程也非常不同。普罗科菲耶夫主要在钢琴上作曲，而肖斯塔科维奇则在脑海中酝酿许多想法。我的确收藏了一些小纸片，普罗科菲耶夫会在按摩休闲的时候在这类小纸片上记录想法，所以说他也在远离钢琴的地方做些事情。然而，肖斯塔科维奇的方式要内在得多。我经常和肖斯塔科维奇一起散步，他会突然抬起头，变得非常安静，这时我就知道，他在作曲了。——普罗科菲耶夫与他的十首钢琴奏鸣曲
TJ: What did Shostakovich and Prokofiev think of each other's music?
加：肖斯塔科维奇和普罗科菲耶夫是如何看待对方的音乐的？
MR: They both had enormous respect for each other, though their tastes were very different. Prokofiev loved Tchaikovsky while Shostakovich preferred Mussorgsky. They listened with great interest to each other's works and got ideas from each other. Shostakovich liked the combination of cello and celeste in Prokofiev's Sinfonia Concertante, so that instrumentation appeared in Shostakovich's next work. Shostakovich also liked the dramatic beat of the timpani after a run of high notes in the cello in the Sinfonia Concertante, so he used that idea in another piece, though he used seven timpani beats instead. Shostakovich thought that the Sinfonia Concertante was Prokofiev's most brilliant work.
罗：虽然他们趣味相异，但彼此充满敬意。普罗科菲耶夫喜欢柴可夫斯基，而肖斯塔科维奇喜欢穆索尔斯基。他们怀着极大的兴趣倾听对方的音乐并收获想法。肖斯塔科维奇喜欢普罗科菲耶夫的《（编者按：e小调大提琴）交响协奏曲》里大提琴和钟琴的结合，因此这种配器技巧就出现在了肖斯塔科维奇的下一部作品里。肖斯塔科维奇还喜欢同一部作品里跟在大提琴高音区的一串音符之后定音鼓的戏剧性一击，因此在另一部作品里运用了这一构思，只是改成了七次击奏。在肖斯塔科维奇看来，《交响协奏曲》是普罗科菲耶夫最杰出的作品。
The Soviet composers all kept a close eye on each other. I remember after I performed the Miaskovsky Sonata with Sviatislov Richter, Prokofiev complained that he couldn't hear any of the difficult fast notes in the cello's lower register because the piano was drowning them out. Interestingly, fast low notes in the cello part appeared in beginning of the second movement of Prokofiev's Sinfonia Concertante (see Figure 1), but he made sure that the orchestra isn't playing so that the notes are audible. They all borrowed from each other.
苏联作曲家们都密切关注着彼此。我记得，在我和里赫特合作演出米亚斯科夫斯基（Miaskovsky）的奏鸣曲之后，普罗科菲耶夫抱怨说他完全听不见大提琴低音区的高难度快速音符，因为钢琴把它们淹没了。有趣的是，大提琴的低音快速音符出现在了普罗科菲耶夫的《交响协奏曲》第二乐章的起始部分（请见“谱例1”），不过作曲家确保了乐队在此时不予演奏，所以这些音符能被听见。他们无不彼此借鉴。
谱例1：
TJ: How much of the Sinfonia Concertante was written by you?
加：《交响协奏曲》有多少是你写的？
MR: Much less than the rumors would suggest. I remember when I played his Opus 58 Concerto in recital with piano. Prokofiev was in the audience and he came up to me afterwards and said, "I think there is some good material in the piece, but I don't like its shape. How would you like to work with me on revising it?" I was so elated by his offer that I practically floated out of the hall!
罗：比传言的要少得多。我记得当我和钢琴家合作演奏普罗科菲耶夫的协奏曲（Op.58）时，作曲家本人就在观众席上。之后他走过来和我说：“我想这部作品里有些好东西，但我并不喜欢它的样子。你想不想和我一起修改它？”我对他的邀请感到欣喜若狂，简直要飞上天了！
There was only one section where I wrote something, and that was at Number 20 (see Figure 2) in the first movement. Some think I wrote the cadenza, but that was all Prokofiev. He said that he needed eight bars of something virtuosic for the cello. All I had to do was write the cello part since he had already composed the orchestration to go with it. Week after week he'd ask me if I had written something, but I kept putting it off and coming up with excuses. He finally blew up at me and said, "You don't have the talent of Brahms! Brahms wrote tons of piano etudes in addition to his other works and you can't even write eight bars!" That motivated me to finally write it.
我只在一个片段里写了点东西，也就是第一乐章的排练号20处（请见“谱例2”）。有人认为华彩段是我写的，但其实那全是普罗科菲耶夫的。他说他需要八个小节的大提琴炫技片段。我所做的仅仅是写作大提琴声部，在这之前他已经把相应的配器写好了。他一周接一周地询问我有没有写点什么，我却总是想出各种推诿的借口。最后他对我发火了：“你没有勃拉姆斯的才华。勃拉姆斯在其它作品以外还写了大量的钢琴练习曲，而你，八个小节都写不了！”这让我下定决心把它写出来。
谱例2：
I came in the next week with the eight bars and he immediately took it to the piano with a pencil and eraser in hand. As often happened when he concentrated, drool dribbled from his lower lip as he reviewed it. After changing maybe ten notes, he thanked me and said it was good. As I walked down the stairwell from his apartment, he shouted behind me, "Nice eight bars!" It was rare to receive compliments from Prokofiev so that was a great day for me. Unfortunately, he never heard the piece played with orchestra because the Soviet government didn't allow his music to be performed in public. I premiered it in Copenhagen in 1953 after he died.
一周后，我带去了那八个小节，他立即把它放在钢琴上，手里拿着铅笔和橡皮。他一边修改，一边淌着口水，这是他专注的时候常有的样子。在大概改了十个音符之后，他感谢我，说这写得很棒。我下楼离开他的公寓时，他在我身后大叫道：“漂亮的八个小节！”从普罗科菲耶夫嘴里得到一句赞美，这是很罕见的，所以那天对我来说太棒了。很不幸的是，他从未听过交响乐团演奏这部作品，因为苏联政府不允许它公演。1953年，我在哥本哈根首演了它，那时候普罗科菲耶夫已经去世。
I also remember when Prokofiev was brought by Miaskovsky to my recital in 1949 to hear the premier of Miaskovsky's cello sonata. Prokofiev said to me, "I shall now start writing a cello sonata for you." I was ecstatic! Being a pianist as well as a cellist, I learned both parts before we met. When we first played it together, I kept correcting him. "I think that F natural should be an F#.... The chord isn't C, E-flat, G, it's C, E natural, G#...." Prokofiev finally said, "Who wrote this, me or you?"
我还记得在1949年的时候，米亚斯科夫斯基把普罗科菲耶夫带去参加我的独奏会，那天首演了米亚斯科夫斯基的大提琴奏鸣曲。普罗科菲耶夫对我说：“我现在要开始给你写一部大提琴奏鸣曲。”我特别开心！作为钢琴家和大提琴家，我在和他会面之前已经把两个声部都研究过了。在我们第一次合奏时，我总是在纠正他：“我觉得那个‘还原F’应该是‘升F’…这个和弦不是‘C，降E和G’，而是‘C，还原E和升G’…”普罗科菲耶夫最后问我：“这是谁写的，我还是你？”
TJ: What do you think of the Soviet government's relationship with music and the arts today?
加：你觉得如今苏维埃政府和音乐及艺术之间是什么关系？
MR: They are so busy with other things that they don't have time to make things worse.
罗：他们被别的事情弄得焦头烂额，没有时间来搞砸这些事情。
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